mle22
Well-Known Member
I will be signing - it was a ridiculous decision.
Clear name of Bertram Allen
- Thread starter Lynn11
- Start date
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
I totally respect your opinion on this, but what outcome do you want? A change in the rule, that if the rider seems like a nice guy then we will bend the rule, a complete abolishment of the rule that injury to the horse will not result in disqualification or something else?
mle22
Well-Known Member
There are rules - but there can also be common sense and discretion - this was in no way a 'welfare' issue. It makes no sense at all, particularly in light of the way some of the other horses at the show were being ridden - practically having their jaws broken.
Last edited:
Feival
Well-Known Member
Yes I can as I am aware of someone that moves in my 'circle' of friends, that was with the owners of the horse the entire evening and witnessed the entire event. The stewards that saw the horse told Bertram he was unlikely to get a yellow card, BUT this rider pressed the issue to make it worse.
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
Currently there are no rules about heavy hands - there are rules about blood. If the heavy hands caused blood in the mouth then the rider would have been disqualified. And you haven't answered the question about what do you want to happen?
mle22
Well-Known Member
I want the prize to go to the rider and horse that won it! The steward should have used common sense and discretion.
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Lets just chuck those rules out then shall we, I mean, end of day who really cares two hoots about a cut and blood on the horses side... I mean, really, thats just stupid! Im all for no rules and letting people get away with anything... as long as they make it over the jumps the fastest... thats all we should care about
Honest to god... some people!!
Queenbee
Well-Known Member
Lets just chuck those rules out then shall we, I mean, end of day who really cares two hoots about a cut and blood on the horses side... I mean, really, thats just stupid! Im all for no rules and letting people get away with anything... as long as they make it over the jumps the fastest... thats all we should care about
Honest to god... some people!!
mle22
Well-Known Member
It was a tiny mark - get real!
EllenJay
Well-Known Member
Won it by cheating? Over zealous use of Spurs? Whether in your opinion or not, the horses skin was cut.
AdorableAlice
Well-Known Member
I was disqualified for blood on my horse at Addington a few years ago. Horse bucked, unseated me and my insecure lower leg scrapped the spur up his side, broke the skin and that was the end of my day.
I broke the rules and paid the price. It matters not whether the class was a novice dressage test or a grand prix, rules are rules.
I broke the rules and paid the price. It matters not whether the class was a novice dressage test or a grand prix, rules are rules.
mle22
Well-Known Member
There really are some holier than thou people on here!
AmyMay
Situation normal
Steward?
mle22
Well-Known Member
Don't understand your question
hairycob
Well-Known Member
Mle22 I'd you bothered to.actually read the FEI rules you would realise that there is zero scope for discretion by the officials in the case of blood on flanks, in mouth or from nose. Or are you suggesting that rules should only apply when it suits you? The rider is a professional. He knows the rules & that, in choosing to wear spurs, he takes a risk.of this happening. It didn't pay off this time. It has been argued that the horse has sensitive skin & so was easily marked - I'm sure he must have been aware of the greater level of risk.
MungoMadness
Well-Known Member
I can't get my head around the thinking that spur cuts of any kind are okay? Because that's essentially what supporters of this petition are saying. Welfare comes first.
AmyMay
Situation normal
It's the Stewards role to report any issues of concern relating to a horse to the ground jury. The ground jury then investigate that issue.
mle22
Well-Known Member
Ok - you are all right and I'm wrong - and I obviously don't care about horse welfare either - I'm still going to sign the petition along with thousands of others x
AmyMay
Situation normal
To what end? 😯
windseywoo
Well-Known Member
If a horse has a cut to the mouth and is disqualified, then there is seemingly more blood due to the saliva being produced, but it could be a very small cut and there is no complaint from the rider then. Would it have then been more acceptable to the OP if there had been more blood? To say that another rider is involved (and then someone implicating the rider) on a public forum is disgraceful no matter who the supposed rider is and if that is the case (of a rider being involved?) then showjumping needs to have a good long look at itself. I actually think Bertram Allen will come out of this fine. He was clearly upset which is to be expected, but there was never anyone saying that it was deliberate or that he abuses his horses; just that as the rules stand he broke them and was disqualified. Also to say thought Michael Whitaker was very dignified when he was given the class.
I don't compete but would be devastated if I ever rode my horse and when I came back there was blood from the bit or where I have my heels (not say from a bramble scratch). I would hope that's how most people would be and not be saying its ok to be using spurs in a way that it cuts the horse no matter how slightly.
I don't compete but would be devastated if I ever rode my horse and when I came back there was blood from the bit or where I have my heels (not say from a bramble scratch). I would hope that's how most people would be and not be saying its ok to be using spurs in a way that it cuts the horse no matter how slightly.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
So it is unacceptable for Miss Nobody at Norton Heath to make her horse bleed with spurs but OK for the top people? I don't get it. Move on, he made the horse bleed, he therefore lost the class, done and dusted.
EventingMum
Well-Known Member
I feel it has been a very unfortunate incident and Bertram rode with great flair and sensitivity from what was seen on tv. Sadly at some point his spur has caught the horse but I'm sure it was unintentional. I have known horses that mark very easily to the point that spurs just cannot be worn on them, others have a patch left unclipped to prevent marking, I'm sure in the future Bertram will do something to prevent it happening again. I totally understand the need for these rules, no one wants the welfare of the horse compromised but is it really any different from being out hunting or going xc and a horse getting a nick from jumping a hedge or brush fence? You could argue the horse's welfare is compromised by the rider choosing to jump that type of fence. However first and foremost riders need to know that the rules are going to be applied fairly and consistently and blood / spur marks will definitely mean elimination as this article suggests this is not the case:
http://equnews.com/miscellaneous/gr...ilippe-le-jeune-react-on-bertram-allens-case/
It should also be marks of any kind as what draws blood on one horse will only leave a small mark on a less sensitive skinned horse. Bertram will have learnt a lot from this incident and long term I'm sure it won't affect his career, he's a very exciting prospect for the future.
http://equnews.com/miscellaneous/gr...ilippe-le-jeune-react-on-bertram-allens-case/
It should also be marks of any kind as what draws blood on one horse will only leave a small mark on a less sensitive skinned horse. Bertram will have learnt a lot from this incident and long term I'm sure it won't affect his career, he's a very exciting prospect for the future.
littletrotter
Well-Known Member
There are two separate problems here.
There is the fact that the horse was injured, and bled, during the class.
There is the fact that the media repeatedly said, "it's a welfare issue" over and over, without giving better details, which made it SEEM, particularly to non-horsey types watching, that Bertram was being accused of outright abuse. Also they should never have filmed him backstage having to go through what he did so very very publicly.
The latter has NOTHING to do with the former. If anything the petition should call for the media to apologise for insinuating that Quiet Easy was deliberately injured in order to "make" it jump and that Bertram was cruel.
The rule itself, and the disqualification, should stand. The rule doesn't address abuse, it addresses blood. The horse bled. Some other riders wore no spurs, or left a bit of length to the coat where the spurs are used. Many others wore spurs and risked this sort of thing but were luckier. And Bertram rode very quietly and kindly, unlike some others who were socking their horses in the mouth two or three times per fence. But the rule doesn't say "ride kindly" the rule says "no blood".
Threads like this always make me wonder - how many here find it genuinely difficult to NOT leave their horses bleeding when they ride? I am very novicey, and have never made a horse bleed. I have never left welts with a stick or visibly injured a mouth with a bit. I have never worn spurs (i don't feel i could do so safely). I am totally positive, having seen him ride, that Bertram caught the horse accidentally when scaling one of those enormous fences, and that he in no way rode harshly or intended injury. But the horse bled. The decision should stand. He is already an exceptional rider, i bet he comes out of this even better. If the rules were applied uniformly at all levels it would be better - them being applied at this level is brilliant. There was an Italian rider who should have been MUCH more worried about blood in the mouth than he seemed to be when he rode. If the up and coming riders see this sort of thing happening the sport will get kinder, because people will not want to risk elimination they will leave the spurs off, have kinder hands, just carry their whip. IMO all those things are positive, not negative.
There is the fact that the horse was injured, and bled, during the class.
There is the fact that the media repeatedly said, "it's a welfare issue" over and over, without giving better details, which made it SEEM, particularly to non-horsey types watching, that Bertram was being accused of outright abuse. Also they should never have filmed him backstage having to go through what he did so very very publicly.
The latter has NOTHING to do with the former. If anything the petition should call for the media to apologise for insinuating that Quiet Easy was deliberately injured in order to "make" it jump and that Bertram was cruel.
The rule itself, and the disqualification, should stand. The rule doesn't address abuse, it addresses blood. The horse bled. Some other riders wore no spurs, or left a bit of length to the coat where the spurs are used. Many others wore spurs and risked this sort of thing but were luckier. And Bertram rode very quietly and kindly, unlike some others who were socking their horses in the mouth two or three times per fence. But the rule doesn't say "ride kindly" the rule says "no blood".
Threads like this always make me wonder - how many here find it genuinely difficult to NOT leave their horses bleeding when they ride? I am very novicey, and have never made a horse bleed. I have never left welts with a stick or visibly injured a mouth with a bit. I have never worn spurs (i don't feel i could do so safely). I am totally positive, having seen him ride, that Bertram caught the horse accidentally when scaling one of those enormous fences, and that he in no way rode harshly or intended injury. But the horse bled. The decision should stand. He is already an exceptional rider, i bet he comes out of this even better. If the rules were applied uniformly at all levels it would be better - them being applied at this level is brilliant. There was an Italian rider who should have been MUCH more worried about blood in the mouth than he seemed to be when he rode. If the up and coming riders see this sort of thing happening the sport will get kinder, because people will not want to risk elimination they will leave the spurs off, have kinder hands, just carry their whip. IMO all those things are positive, not negative.
SusieT
Well-Known Member
not sure that counts as substantiation... 'friend of a frined of a friend' - very reliable (not!)
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
The horse has THREE holes in his side with blood on.
Accidental or deliberate, that's not acceptable. The disqualification was correct. The petition is not.
Accidental or deliberate, that's not acceptable. The disqualification was correct. The petition is not.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
I will tell you now their would be a petition 10 times that size to uphold the judgement!
MargotC
Well-Known Member
Truly, I am beginning to think those wanting the decision to eliminate him overturned are making the matter into a much, much bigger one than it needs be. Bertram is a fantastic rider who will go far (and he already has!). I massively enjoy seeing him ride. But there needs to be an equality for rules no matter who you are, well liked or not, and ultimately there was blood on the horse caused by the rider. It is just one of those things; accidents can happen to the best. He doesn't need his name "cleared" over an accident!
I would however like to see progress when it comes to available spurs as surely it is in the interest of everyone to as far as possible eliminate the risk of spur marks, when spurs are worn.
I would however like to see progress when it comes to available spurs as surely it is in the interest of everyone to as far as possible eliminate the risk of spur marks, when spurs are worn.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Hate to say it after the other thread! However I hope you have the evidence to back that claim up as you may need too the person you are eluding too has a very good solicitor(not sure if they have dinner parties though). Also if you are a BS member tread carefully as they are quite strict on disrepute proceedings . Engage brain before mouth!
There is a difference by the way between a yellow card which are given for bad riding and a horse being disqualified for an infringement of the rules!
mle22
Well-Known Member
Could I suggest people have a look on the Team Ireland Equestrian FB site for some interesting discussion
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Lifes to short the rulings clearcut ! you wont change it ! The person who will suffer most will be the guy you are supporting ,give him a break as at his age you may find it screws him up .I certainly dont wish that on him.