Pictures Cleveland Bays - a small Monday evening ramble

[Foxaunt]

I'm not the first and certainly won't be the last to ponder this; as the very fortunate owner of two lovely (by my own admission) Cleveland Bays, a rare breed in desperate need of more support, I often wonder why it is that more people don't branch out into the rarer breeds.

It's obviously not something straightforward to solve, many factors come into play, chief of which (pardon me for stating the obvious) is that there just aren't enough of them, therefore they're difficult to source, and you're more unlikely to be stabled at a yard with one to say "oh that's a nice horse" etc. but with greater demand for the breed, there will be a positive impact on population. secondly, a lot of people don't seem to shop around for a specific breed unless you are into showing or competing in a specific discipline or to a high level.

I am just a "hobby" owner in the breed and speak from a place with no authority really, so just out of curiosity, I'm wondering if anyone has come across a breed that they hadn't previously thought about owning, and has had their interests piqued with it? was this from watching someone at a show? a well-worded facebook post? a news article? or like me, someone loudly and annoyingly inserting the topic in every conversation hoping someone will be inspired!

Obviously from my biased standpoint they seem like a good choice for an adults mount; stocky, level-headed, incredibly trainable, not easily flapped, athletic, good all-rounders, affordable, easy-keepers...

To summarise: what can be done to make these rare breeds more interesting and accessible to riders and owners? please feel free to be frank!

 

[Fools Motto]

I own a cleveland bay x new forest, it's early days (currently backing him) and we're getting to know each other. It's not a breed I would go out and choose, probably because they are not in the same numbers as say a TB, and have a reputation (apparently) of being somewhat 'stubborn'?!? I also think they are designed to be carriage horses, so turning that reputation into a riding horse won't happen over night. First impressions of my boy are great, and he's oddly very popular with all other owners on the yard.

 

[Spotherisk]

I love Cleveland Bays, every one I’ve seen just has a very kind look. If I ever one the lottery I would love help the breed.

 

[SOS]

Being frank and my personal opinion? I’ve listed the UK rarer breeds below and why I don’t have one. Please no one take offence, this is my opinion only and why I wouldn’t have one of those particular rare breeds... or pay the price they rightly fetch. This is not thinking about the bigger picture just why me as one person doesn’t have a rare breed. I suspect some people are similar.

• Dales pony: a pony so not suitable for my height and build/not athletic enough to cover big hunting country.
• Cleveland bay: never liked their eye/face, all the ones I have met have been quite stubborn, plain horses. Again my personal experience but perhaps meeting some more nice types would change it!
•Eriskay pony: tiny and never ever seen one for sale.
•Hackney: wouldn’t want a trotter
•Suffolk: absolutely gorgeous and if I won millions and had a herd of horses just to look at I would have one. But a huge horse to feed and have on livery! And wouldn’t be athletic enough for me.
•Exmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Dartmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Clydesdale: as per Suffolk but I find them less charming. A huge horse to keep.
•Fell pony: as per Dales.
•Highland pony: as per Dales.
•New Forest pony: as per Dales. Although don’t understand why these Aren’t as popular as connies?
•Shire: as per Suffolk.

 

[DabDab]

Cleveland bays struggle because they have a (in my opinion undeserved) reputation for being stubborn and they are not very distinctive looking so are not marketable in the way that, for example, a Clydesdale is

 

[Foxaunt]

I own a cleveland bay x new forest, it's early days (currently backing him) and we're getting to know each other. It's not a breed I would go out and choose, probably because they are not in the same numbers as say a TB, and have a reputation (apparently) of being somewhat 'stubborn'?!? I also think they are designed to be carriage horses, so turning that reputation into a riding horse won't happen over night. First impressions of my boy are great, and he's oddly very popular with all other owners on the yard.

How lovely, i wish you all the best with the backing journey! That sounds like a great cross!

I'm aware of this reputation unfortunately, so many people say the same. My 2yo gelding is incredibly willing and eager, my mare too i have to say, considering she was only backed for a little while, and had nearly a year off when i bought her as a 5yo, she's such a jem.

I think what doesn't help is that when there are so few, if someone meets one that is particularly unsavoury (I've met a large number of CBs, none have been anything less than just wonderful horses, but I don't doubt there will be a few outliers) then you forever think "cleveland bays, oh yes i met one once, he was dreadful!" etc.

 

[Archangel]

I absolutely love Cleveland Bays. The one I rode jumped the moon. I also love the look of them, the bayness, the ears, the quality. Big fan (and I am an Arab person really).

 

[marmalade88]

I adore Cleveland’s, but how do you find one? Did you buy Yours from a specific breeder?

 

[Foxaunt]

Being frank and my personal opinion? I’ve listed the UK rarer breeds below and why I don’t have one. Please no one take offence, this is my opinion only and why I wouldn’t have one of those particular rare breeds... or pay the price they rightly fetch. This is not thinking about the bigger picture just why me as one person doesn’t have a rare breed. I suspect some people are similar.

• Dales pony: a pony so not suitable for my height and build/not athletic enough to cover big hunting country.
• Cleveland bay: never liked their eye/face, all the ones I have met have been quite stubborn, plain horses. Again my personal experience but perhaps meeting some more nice types would change it!
•Eriskay pony: tiny and never ever seen one for sale.
•Hackney: wouldn’t want a trotter
•Suffolk: absolutely gorgeous and if I won millions and had a herd of horses just to look at I would have one. But a huge horse to feed and have on livery! And wouldn’t be athletic enough for me.
•Exmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Dartmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Clydesdale: as per Suffolk but I find them less charming. A huge horse to keep.
•Fell pony: as per Dales.
•Highland pony: as per Dales.
•New Forest pony: as per Dales. Although don’t understand why these Aren’t as popular as connies?
•Shire: as per Suffolk.

I should hope noone takes offence to you giving your opinion, it's important to have these conversations! thank you. completely agree with you on the NF point also!

 

[LEC]

I have had some Cleveland Bays x TB and they have been good horses. Stayed really sound and were tough. They had their moments but on the whole that was fine. They were good solid Hunter types but they didn’t have enough jump or movement for modern sport. They were fine in the 90s/early 2000s but are outgunned now by much more athletic and fancy horses. I would take the toughness genetics though!! Pure bred CBs are a very acquired taste. I am surprised they are not used more as good weight carriers and all round riding horses just not modern sport horses. They are much nicer than gypsy cobs which have similar traits for stubbornness and used a lot for that market.

 

[Foxaunt]

I adore Cleveland’s, but how do you find one? Did you buy Yours from a specific breeder?

I did by my gelding from Braithwaite stud in Harrogate, and i would buy from them all day every day, there is nothing that this horse won't face, he has the heart of a lion, very well mannered and noone believes that he is only 2. I still talk to his breeder every week if not dailiy and she has always been so supportive and just wonderful, and full of advice.

We found him by googling "cleveland bays for sale" in all honesty, took us directly to the Cleveland Bay Horse Society official website, and there he was!

Alternatively this website lists most or all known breeders, and you can get in touch with any of them and most will be more than happy to assist in pointing you towards one for sale, they will support anyone with an interest in the breed that can offer them a good home.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

I have a Fell mare, and would definitely have another! She's definitely not a kids pony, far too smart for that, but she's loads of fun, lives on fresh air, great feet!
If I ever won the lottery I'd love to have a few hackneys horses to help the breed. As a driving fan I know quite a few people with them and live them.

 

[McFluff]

My own experience - it’s hard enough to find a horse you like, that suits you and is within a distance you can travel, without being restrictive on breeds.

When I was looking I wanted a native. A highland, a Dales or WelshD. None are that rare. I wanted something 5+ and backed as I don’t have the skill or experience to back a baby.
I couldn’t find any Dales that were ridden away and still sound. Looks like people keep them. I couldn’t find a highland that was 5+ and not obese (I know lots of people who have lovely fit ones, but they aren’t for sale). I found (and totally love) a Welsh D. there simply are far more of them around.

I had a good budget and was prepared to travel uk mainland.

I think it would help if the breed societies ran sales pages for each breed (I understand why they don’t but it would help people find one to buy).

Your horses look gorgeous.

 

[Pippity]

My own experience - it’s hard enough to find a horse you like, that suits you and is within a distance you can travel, without being restrictive on breeds.

Yes, exactly. I wanted something 14.2hh-15.2hh, comfortable carrying my weight, sensible outlook on life, aged 6-8. If, eg, a Dales had come up on my search that met my criteria, I would have been very happy with that, but it didn't. I did glance over sales pages on a couple of breed societies, but the horses for sale were foals or broodmares. Also, the sales pages were a good few years out of date, which put me off.

 

[Foxaunt]

My own experience - it’s hard enough to find a horse you like, that suits you and is within a distance you can travel, without being restrictive on breeds.

When I was looking I wanted a native. A highland, a Dales or WelshD. None are that rare. I wanted something 5+ and backed as I don’t have the skill or experience to back a baby.
I couldn’t find any Dales that were ridden away and still sound. Looks like people keep them. I couldn’t find a highland that was 5+ and not obese (I know lots of people who have lovely fit ones, but they aren’t for sale). I found (and totally love) a Welsh D. there simply are far more of them around.

I had a good budget and was prepared to travel uk mainland.

I think it would help if the breed societies ran sales pages for each breed (I understand why they don’t but it would help people find one to buy).

Your horses look gorgeous.

This is so true, I'm glad you found your SecD in the end. You make a very good point on the sales page too. I wonder just how many are looking for homes at the minute. I know whenever i find a CB add on my travels (i do have keyword alerts set up) i put them on the CB forum pages, a lot are not target product for those in the market (older or unbacked) unfortunately. Would love to add a few more geldings personally, nothing against my mare but geldings are the ones that obviously don't have to be a part of the breeding programme.

Also, thank you!! Can't wait for the winter coat to drop, come on summer!!

 

[Zuzan]

I really love CBs .. I have a CB x TB .. she looks v like her CB sire. To me I think their reputation for being stubborn is they are in my experience intelligent and very able to look after themselves and "micro management" tends to backfire.. They are very trainable if training is done with tact and positive reinforcement .. they actually love to please and are very people orientated.

CBs are great athletic horses and crossed with some blood have some real UUUUUUmph.. As for being carriage horses .. a carriage horse is essentially a utility horse and as suited to ridden as driving... think of the Lippizaner .. also a "carriage horse" !!

As for finding my horse .. I literally did an end to end tour of GB breeders.. I bought as an unbacked youngster and I would do it that way again.. buy direct from breeder and spend time building the relationship on the ground before backing.. If you spend bucks on a horse I reckon it's worth investing the time and effort finding it and building the relationship before backing .. I have deep mistrust of dealers .. it just doesn't sit right with me.. not sure why as have never bought from a dealer or had anything to do with a dealer.

 

[spotty_pony]

Sorry to hijack post but I know of one which could be for sale - he would be a project though. They are a lovely breed.

 

[Nudibranch]

One of my best ever horses was a CB. I'd have replaced her with another in a heartbeat but I just couldn't find one.
I now have a Dales as my main riding horse. I say horse because she's 15hh. I thought long and hard as I'm 5'10 and believed for a long time I couldn't ride a "pony". Wrong! She takes up as much leg as my big boned 17.3 WB did. She wears xf in much of her tack, 6'6 in rugs, and as a rising 6yo she is still filling out.
However, I did have to buy her as a 3yo because ready made Dales pretty much don't get sold on. They're known as "the great all rounder" for a reason and many people hold many misconceptions about Dales and other rare breeds. While I don't like to see them doing endless circles in an arena, they are talented. Mine will be ride and drive. Her balance and surefootedness at any pace over any ground is incredible. There's a superb hunting Dales on one of the breed FB pages.
I will eventually breed from her, if I can bear to stop riding her for long enough. She's very well put together, shows well and carries good lines. I visualise her as the foundation mare for a (very) small but quality stud. Demand far outstrips supply, and I do believe as awareness grows, demand will increase even more. That said, the chances of me actually parting with any progeny are pretty low!
The purchase price of a well bred native seems to put people off somewhat also. I'd argue that the potential saving in vet bills and farriery alone make them a far more attractive option than a poorly bred, cut n shut generic cob.

 

[Kaylum]

We use to breed them for the police but then they changed breeds and liked the Irish draughts better so we had to swap to keep the business going.

 

[millikins]

Being frank and my personal opinion? I’ve listed the UK rarer breeds below and why I don’t have one. Please no one take offence, this is my opinion only and why I wouldn’t have one of those particular rare breeds... or pay the price they rightly fetch. This is not thinking about the bigger picture just why me as one person doesn’t have a rare breed. I suspect some people are similar.

• Dales pony: a pony so not suitable for my height and build/not athletic enough to cover big hunting country.
• Cleveland bay: never liked their eye/face, all the ones I have met have been quite stubborn, plain horses. Again my personal experience but perhaps meeting some more nice types would change it!
•Eriskay pony: tiny and never ever seen one for sale.
•Hackney: wouldn’t want a trotter
•Suffolk: absolutely gorgeous and if I won millions and had a herd of horses just to look at I would have one. But a huge horse to feed and have on livery! And wouldn’t be athletic enough for me.
•Exmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Dartmoor pony: as per Dales.
•Clydesdale: as per Suffolk but I find them less charming. A huge horse to keep.
•Fell pony: as per Dales.
•Highland pony: as per Dales.
•New Forest pony: as per Dales. Although don’t understand why these Aren’t as popular as connies?
•Shire: as per Suffolk.

How on earth can you consider a hackney to be a "trotter" They are one of the most athletic, sound breeds out there and a foundation breed of many foreign warmbloods. Take a look at some driving trials if you think they can only trot. Given the opportunity most are talented jumpers too.
Eriskays, our first pony was an Eriskay, she was an inch over height at 13.3hh so hardly tiny, not hugely scopey but tried her heart out and a fantastic hunting pony and PC.
We currently have a Dales, she is 14.2hh, built like the proverbial outhouse, would carry 14 stone all day without blinking and is athletic, beautiful and dressage judges love her.

 

[honetpot]

I think most of the rare breeds were bred or allowed to breed for a job, even if it was just pulling a cart and rounding up sheep, as a nation we were smaller in stature so something that was hardy and cheap to keep was more important than size. Now there seems to be an obsession in animals being sporty and huge, all the conversations at PC, of how X was too big for their pony, which they could probably do a couple more years on, and how they were looking for a horse.
A lot of it like most things is fashion, the large breeds tend to need special shoeing, a lot of land, and a large hay bill. Some native breeders have waiting lists for foals, and if pressure on land get worse, I can see the large horse market, over 16hands, getting worse and more for the specialist rider.
The travellers are breeding their ponies smaller, they want the traditional feathered look, but under 12hands, hardly any of them I know of are ridden. I wish people would accept that most leisure riders are not going to jump over 80cms, or go above Prelim, have little time and space for an equine that needs a lot of work, and buy something more suitable.
I wouldn't have a CB, I had one, and you could not tire it out, beautiful, lovely on the floor but a madam ridden, and my friend had one that was pretty much the same. When they are good they are good, but when they have a 'cob on' they are hard work.

 

[PurBee]

I love Cleveland Bays, every one I’ve seen just has a very kind look. If I ever one the lottery I would love help the breed.

Im not overly familiar with CB’s to be honest but from the pic shown i immediately thought the same as you, such a kind looking face and eye - especially seen on the horse in the right of the pic as we can see full face.

I’d quite like to be greeted by that face instead of huge nostrils, high-headed-raised-eyebrowed-staring-eyed arabXwelsh D‘s demanding breakfast! Alert, inquisitive, clever, cheeky, did i say alert...hahhaaa that they are, but kind-looking, like the CB’s?... unfortunately not. ?

Very sweet looking breed - funny to hear from a few of you that they’re known for stubborness - they dont look it!

 

[SOS]

How on earth can you consider a hackney to be a "trotter" They are one of the most athletic, sound breeds out there and a foundation breed of many foreign warmbloods. Take a look at some driving trials if you think they can only trot. Given the opportunity most are talented jumpers too.

I understand you may be found of Hackneys millikins but you can’t deny they are known for trotting. I’m well aware they drive too. Here’s the top handful of google pages for hackney horse:

1. Wikipedia ‘They are an elegant high stepping breed of carriage horse that is popular for showing in harness events. Hackneys possess good stamina, and are capable of trotting at high speed for extended periods of time.’
2. RBST ‘Hackneys are an elegant, high stepping breed known for their ability to trot at high speed for extended periods...
The British Hackney had its origins in the Norfolk and Yorkshire Roadsters (trotting horses)’
3. Spruce pets ‘One of the most distinctive features of the Hackney is its unique trot.’
4. Britannica ‘Noted for their high-stepping, flashy trot, they are high-strung and nervous and must be carefully trained and handled.’
....

Trotter is not a derogatory term. I just don’t need a horse that trots fancy or is renowned for it.

As for Dales, I’m sure they can be athletic in their own right but they simply wouldn’t be athletic enough for myself. I’m not going around Badminton but I don’t feel a pony wants to gallop around for several hours and be put at large fences with my lump on it! It’s simply not built for it.

 

[shanti]

I am in Australia and have been searching for a Highland, Connie or New Forest for years! They just don't come up for sale apart from the occasional youngster from the few breeders we have here, and due to the rarity they have high price tags for what you are getting.

 

[KEK]

I am in Australia and have been searching for a Highland, Connie or New Forest for years! They just don't come up for sale apart from the occasional youngster from the few breeders we have here, and due to the rarity they have high price tags for what you are getting.

Have you enquired at Powderbark Stud? That’s where I got my Connie from and I know she sends them interstate as well. My friend has just bought a rising 3yo from them who is 75% Connie 25% ISH and he was 4.5k .

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

A few more downsides to the heavies:

Give up on you rug obsession, they don't need them so you wont be going out buying the new sheep / duck / peacock print no matter how much you want it.

As above with headcollers, you'll be buying the HH ones which come in about 3 colour combinations.

If you want to do dressage on a Clydesdale or shire you'll need to find plenty of room for rosette storage. On a Suffolk you'll get beaten by a more exciting horse so pick classes without shires and Clydesdales in.

You won't get all that practice at lunging, you won't need to lunge before getting on, even if they've been in for a week. They are endlessly level headed and sensible so no opportunity for funny sh*teventers videos.

Hacking takes longer because people want to meet them and ask you about them.

Suitable mounting blocks (random places if you jump off mid hack) are harder to find so if anyone does need to hop off for any reason. Its unlikely to be you. Unless you're riding the shorter Suffolk and hacking with Shires and Clydesdales

 

[Dexter]

I feel a bit the same about highlands. I got mine by accident about 5 years ago and he is perfection. He hacks, jumps, does everything a fancy warmblood would do, but with no hassle at all. I can take him out alone or in company, leave him alone all day while the others are out. He moves nicely and is athletic. Happy jumping 3ft3 open courses. And hes safe and sure footed.

About 80% of people who go out and buy sports horses would be much better off with a highland. But they very rarely come up for sale as ridden ponies. Once people have them, they hold on to them for good reason! So the only sure way to get one is to buy a youngster and most people just dont want to do that.

 

[Cloball]

I would love a fell/dales/new forest I grew up on these ponies and they are more than capable of doing a bit of low level dressage, endurance and exploring which is all I need. The problem I came up against is they often have homes for life and don't come onto the market often. Therefore you have to look at youngsters and I am not nearly confident or skilled enough for that. I see quite a few lovely youngsters and dream.

There are fell pony sales in the autumn if anyone was interested.

 

[meleeka]

I wouldn’t buy a rare breed purposefully because I think they would just be wasted on me. I don’t want to breed, or show and I keep my horses for life. They are essentially pets, so I go more for temperament than breed. I do love CB’s though and would choose a CB X something heavier like a cob if they were fairly common and I was looking.

 

[Widgeon]

My own experience - it’s hard enough to find a horse you like, that suits you and is within a distance you can travel, without being restrictive on breeds.

When I was looking I wanted a native. A highland, a Dales or WelshD. None are that rare. I wanted something 5+ and backed as I don’t have the skill or experience to back a baby.
I couldn’t find any Dales that were ridden away and still sound. Looks like people keep them. I couldn’t find a highland that was 5+ and not obese

I would love a fell/dales/new forest I grew up on these ponies and they are more than capable of doing a bit of low level dressage, endurance and exploring which is all I need. The problem I came up against is they often have homes for life and don't come onto the market often. Therefore you have to look at youngsters and I am not nearly confident or skilled enough for that. .

I could've written these posts. It's barely possible to find a nice native breed riding pony that's big enough to carry an adult (i.e. 13.3hh upwards) that is actually for sale and doesn't cost enormous money. I really wanted a Highland or Dales, but after a serious false start I ended up with a 15.1hh cob with no recorded breeding and I think I was lucky.

 

[Zuzan]

I understand you may be found of Hackneys millikins but you can’t deny they are known for trotting. I’m well aware they drive too. Here’s the top handful of google pages for hackney horse:

..............

Trotter is not a derogatory term. I just don’t need a horse that trots fancy or is renowned for it. ................

Just to add that Hackney's have been used in Warmblood breeding programmes specifcially to improve the trot....

As have CBs... but more for overall quality

As for providing umpph / spark / additional athletic performance .. some of the best have been native / light draft (ID / CB) crosses with TB's. Which is a problem when native / ID / CB mares are crossed with TB sire.. needs to be the other way around .. TB mare crossed to ID / CB / Native sire.. which is exactly what I have .. a CB sire out of a TB mare.. and she is far more able than I will ever need .. literally a horse of a lifetime.