Cleveland bays are good for nothing

I think they add bone and substance as an out cross, but I have known CBx that have been very pig headed when ridden, you can not argue with them, it better to put them away and start again so I would say they are for someone who wants a competition horse.
I have had a few animals over the years from hairies to TB and my mare was the toughest to figure out, she was either as sweet as a nut or not playing, no half way. Although they are extremely good to look at they are as tough as old boots, no wonder as they were bred initially for carriage driving. Its sad that they are basically a rare breed but unless breeds adapt there just isn't a job for them and its great that breeders are breeding for temperament and trainability, more than ever in this climate if it can not do a job there is not going to be a market.
Would I have one again? If I found the right mare I would try out crossing to something with a trainable temperament but if I was selling the cross I would register with the sires stud book.
 
I don't think you can compare horses competitive in top flight 1980 format eventing to that today, we all know that very different horses were successful in times gone by and that a lot of the warmbloods struggle now without a lot of TB blood?

Rollin what do you think they bring compared to ID?
 
ester said:
Just ironic is only 1/4 CB though and I don't think his rider would count as an amateur! http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/just+ironic

I do wonder what they bring to the table compared to say an ID, which is much more renowned for it's good temperament, and that a direct cross of either is never going to make a top flight sports horse.
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I think it's bold to say a direct ID/CB x TB would not do well as a top level sports horse. Jumbo was at least a direct cross ID x TB, if not with >50% of ID blood and competed at Advanced. I also know of many other horses that are a direct cross doing well at Intermediate and Advanced level, including my own eventer who was 7/8 ID by Crosstown Dancer who evented to Intermediate comfortably. I also suspect numerous SJers may well be a direct cross between ID and TB, and Spring Pascal is a grand prix dressage horse and a direct CB x Hannoverian. I suppose I don't really understand your reasoning behind this point.

I also was not aware of IDs having a reputation for good temperament compared to clevelands having a reputation for a bad temperament. I think the reason there are more IDs is actually because they are just more sporty horses as they would have traditionally fulfilled draft work alongside being a hunter, where clevelands perhaps only did draft work and carriage work. They are different breeds and they fulfilled different roles.

I by no means am saying that clevelands would make brilliant eventers (I tend to think the more TB the better,) I just don't believe your comments are necessarily correct with regard to what makes a good sports horse, or that IDs and CBs are directly comparable. I also vaguely recall that in an interview with Craig Nicolai in H&H he did describe himself as an amateur - an amateur in eventing is typically identified as someone who does not earn a living from horses, rather than someone who is inexperienced, so it's perfectly plausible he is one.
 
I guess I know some lovely IDs having only heard people be sceptical about CBs. and my direct cross point was more that most point out the need for plenty of blood for the higher levels, I guess it depends where you put that cut off/does it have to be top level international or national. Just a pondering!

Craig is based at boomerang and teaches and rides so I don't see how he would be an amateur? He isn't a dentist riding in his spare time ;).
 
I don't know enough about RID to comment, Ester other than to say I believe they lost HBLB funding when TB blood was introduced into the stud book, something a number of CB breeders are resisting. When I visited the ISH stand at Lion D'Angers a few years ago and asked what made an ISH I was told it needed one ID in the first three generations. When people speak of ID are they really speaking of a pure bred RID?

I return to my point about state run studs. In France I am regarded as a farmer. I think the UK is probably alone in treating horse breeding as a recreational pursuit of the wealthy, Ireland does not treat horse breeding in this way. If you breed more then there is more chance of success.

In the USA and Australia the pure bred CB still has plenty of supporters, I know of one breeder whose foals are sold before they are born.

As for temperament I have not so far had a single pure bred CB with a nasty temperament. They ARE big and strong but how they turn out is down to handling not nature.
 
I did think there had been some TB input into the ID at some point, it was just my ponderings and I do completely take your point about numbers! Are we in the situation where there are more CBs abroad than in the UK?
 
One third of new registrations to the stud book now come from overseas but Australia has its own stud book. we also know that not all overseas pure breds get registered in the mother stud book.
 
I wonder, as Cleveland bays are so scarce how many people have had first hand contact with modern day Cleveland bays as quite a few comments about temperment and the jobs they are able to do are inaccurate to say the least
Cleveland bays may have been driving horses in the past but they would have worked on a farm and put to the plough which is where the strength and stamina would come into play this would be useful on the hunting field and they would often be seen carrying a farmer hunting for the day this job kept them going when the tractor took over
most were lost on the battle fields of France pulling gun carriages so perhaps we shouldnt be to disrespectful of a breed that was prepared to die for us
Other breeds of horse were added to the ranks when the supply of Cleveland bays started to dry up
And also to say Clevelands have not changed with the times, they have people thought their heads ugly so CB has a new modern look to their heads
I was at Equifest last year and i over heard a spectator say to their friend are they TB
not knowing what class they were watching
My own CB is more eventer looking my farrier who events says eventer looking if you chop off his head[he has the old traditional head]
I did the burghley sponsored ride last year someone [ walking the course] very nicely commented on what lovely conformation he had and would want to buy him there was no prompt from me for that comment but it was lovely to receive it
One thing though the Cleveland bay judges hate him
By the way my avatar is my part-bred 50%x50% quite useful you wont have part-breds without pures
 
If CBs were so bad, I'm sure HM The Queen wouldn't risk her life, her family's lives and the lives of visiting statespeople and others visiting the UK, let alone passing pedestrians, by using them as both carriage horses and of course outrider horses. HM's horses at the Royal Mews are ridden and driven.

I would agree that as a breed they often have 'character' though!
 
paddy said:
If CBs were so bad, I'm sure HM The Queen wouldn't risk her life, her family's lives and the lives of visiting statespeople and others visiting the UK, let alone passing pedestrians, by using them as both carriage horses and of course outrider horses. HM's horses at the Royal Mews are ridden and driven.

I would agree that as a breed they often have 'character' though!
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Yes but they are professionally kept and worked. Not many leisure riders can put in the that amount of work or even would know where to start. I used to ride for an old fashion dealer as a child, and his saying was to keep a horse sweet it needs long days and little dinners, there are not many equines now a days that get even an hours proper work, never mind pull a carriage for miles.
 
Re the reporting, it's annoying but not uncommon. I have the same beef with the reporting of PBAs - outside the endurance world, successful horses' Arab bits are often not mentioned, and this just perpetuates the myth that Arabs can't do x, y or z. In the endurance world though, it goes the other way and only the Arab bits are mentioned, which just perpetuates the myth that you need an Arab to do endurance. It's lazy reporting and damages breeds.
 
Rollin said:
Ester, the CBxTB joh of Gaunt won Burleigh three day event. Lord Fairfax sired two Olympic Show Jumpers, Madison Time and North Flight and Baydale Juryman sired a Pony Eventer who was one of the UK junior eventing team. Spring Pascall who was on the UK Junior Dressage Team for several years was a HannxCB (he had the same grandam as the mare in the Western saddle), Ferdi Eilberg's International Dressage Horse, Arun Tor was also a part bred Cleveland Bay.

I would suggest that State run studs producing thousands of warmbloods have a greater chance of producing International stars than a rare breed with fewer than 500 horses. Don't you think that the success indicates how consistently GOOD the Cleveland Bay is?
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Well you learn something new every day! I assume you mean John O'Gaunt? That's my dressage mare's dam sire, I never knew she had CB blood in her!!
 
Hello again all, I believe the comment that the horses at the royal mews are all worked regularly and properly by professionals but this does not mean to say that Cleveland bays are not suitable for the average pleasure rider my CB has bashed his stifle and has been out of work since April and probably wont return to work this year however when he does come back i know i would be totally safe if i just jumped back on as if he had no time off how many horses today could make that boast
 
harveysmom said:
Hello again all, I believe the comment that the horses at the royal mews are all worked regularly and properly by professionals but this does not mean to say that Cleveland bays are not suitable for the average pleasure rider my CB has bashed his stifle and has been out of work since April and probably wont return to work this year however when he does come back i know i would be totally safe if i just jumped back on as if he had no time off how many horses today could make that boast
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Totally agree!. My lad can have anything from a day to a few months off and can still be the same horse to get back on. Yes he has some strong opinions but the trick is not to argue with him. You just have to let him decide for himself that you are right. It doesn't take long to get their trust.
 
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