Clicker training for dummies......

Supertrooper

Supertrooper

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Can someone explain the steps in an easy to understand way, I want to use it to get my pony happier with having his legs touched and handled for farrier visits.

So to start I'm right in thinking I need to condition him to the concept that click means reward (in the beginning that is food). Once he's learnt this then gradually break down the leg handling into steps so to me this is.........

Stand by leg without touching it and he stands still happily.
Touch leg
Run hand down leg
Lift foot
Hold foot up
Pick foot out
Handle legs like farrier would

Am I heading in the right direction??

Also to stop him mobbing me for treats, only click and treat if his head is away from me and don't treat him near my body??
 
Yes, that`s basically it in a nut shell. But the first thing you need to do the "anti-mugging", that is really important to set you off on the right foot.

Alexandra Kurland "The click that teaches" is a really good book and DVD set. Also there is a forum called Equi-click who are really helpful with all things clicker :)
 
We went to a talk by a well-known dog behaviourist who demonstrated clicker training and started off by 'loading the click'. Sister tried it to get our Appaloosa youngster who had to have an abscessed foot injury cut into twice by the vet and then was absolutely petrified of anybody touching her foot. We had been doing some work on but were no where near having the foot trimmed by the farrier (which she had been quite happy with previously. With input from the farrier as well, the filly is now back to having her feet trimmed reasonably happily, although we are still working on rasping.
I don't understand why you would not want the pony to look at you, the dog trainer made sure that the dog's attention was focussed on her before beginning to even load the click. You just don't give a reward for mugging you, or you push the nose away - you are in charge of the rewards, after all. They very soon know that the reward follows the click anyway.
 
Supertrooper said:
Can someone explain the steps in an easy to understand way, I want to use it to get my pony happier with having his legs touched and handled for farrier visits.

So to start I'm right in thinking I need to condition him to the concept that click means reward (in the beginning that is food). Once he's learnt this then gradually break down the leg handling into steps so to me this is.........

Stand by leg without touching it and he stands still happily.
Touch leg
Run hand down leg
Lift foot
Hold foot up
Pick foot out
Handle legs like farrier would

Am I heading in the right direction??

Also to stop him mobbing me for treats, only click and treat if his head is away from me and don't treat him near my body??
Click to expand...

That's pretty close :) There are a few key things to do and key things to avoid, and it does help if you have support from someone who can see issues brewing :)
By the way, all species respond to positive reinforcement training, but within the ethological boundaries of their own species specific behaviour - so how you would train a dog, a horse, a parrot (and a person ;) ) are all different, because they have their own unique set of motivations and behaviours. That's why it's better to take advice from someone who specialises in training the species you're wanting to work with. You wouldn't use a dog trainer to help you back your horse, would you? ;)

The best value downloadable getting started guides, from the most reputable trainers are Peggy Hogan's getting started kit http://www.thebestwhisperisaclick.com/CT/Clicker_Tips/Clicker_tips.html (it's priced in dollars but your payment of about £15 goes through in pounds), or Jenni Nellist's exceptionally well priced Getting Started e-book at £3.99 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Clicker-tra...&qid=1415468941&sr=8-1&keywords=jenni+nellist

If you need a bit more support, have a look at the Connection Training website.
 
Brightbay said:
That's pretty close :) There are a few key things to do and key things to avoid, and it does help if you have support from someone who can see issues brewing :)
By the way, all species respond to positive reinforcement training, but within the ethological boundaries of their own species specific behaviour - so how you would train a dog, a horse, a parrot (and a person ;) ) are all different, because they have their own unique set of motivations and behaviours. That's why it's better to take advice from someone who specialises in training the species you're wanting to work with. You wouldn't use a dog trainer to help you back your horse, would you? ;)

.
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The dog trainer (an extremely highly qualified, internationally known trainer) I was listening to was describing the technique, which she said can be used to train virtually any species and in fact started with dolphins. She knows someone who has used it to train a goldfish. She specifically told her audience, which was a RC group, that it was a transferable method of training. Of course you need to know enough about the animal/species you are working with to be able to know what is desirable behaviour.

We knew plenty about horses but very little about clicker training, which has proved to be very successful with the filly and definitely not rocket-science.
 
I think it`s more teaching the horse to stay out of your space initially, hence why you teach them to turn away from you and not be in your face, as having 500+KG of horse deciding it wants the treat off you 'now this second' is a lot more overwhelming and overpowering than 50kg (ish) of dog. Teaching them they get the reward from having their head away from you gives you a 2 fold effect, firstly they are not in your immediate space (stops you being flattened), and secondly with the head turned away, the balance of the horse changes, which helps disengage the hind quarters (which in turns helps teach then to stay where they are rather than creeping forwards into your space) :)
 
I'm clicker training my 2yr old and its really helping to cement the basics, have taught her shake as well but having to refine it a bit as keep getting her leg waved at me:) , it's a great way to keep her brain busy without any strain on her body. Only do 10 mins a day.
 
When conditioning the click the one thing no-one to-date has pointed out is that the reward has to be something that the horse VALUES! :) This MAY be food, it may equally be a scratch on the bum or interaction of some other kind! Clicker training will NOT work (canine or equine) if the reward is not valued.
 
gunnergundog said:
When conditioning the click the one thing no-one to-date has pointed out is that the reward has to be something that the horse VALUES! :) This MAY be food, it may equally be a scratch on the bum or interaction of some other kind! Clicker training will NOT work (canine or equine) if the reward is not valued.
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Very true and we were concerned that the filly concerned might not respond well because she did not want treats, even though we use them routinely with all our horses. But she has associated the click and the treat and has decided that she enjoys treats now. I have used food rewards for horses for over 40 yrs and have never had one demand a treat by mugging. My horses all know not to invade my personal space. They don't get the reward if they do that.
 
DCJACE said:
Exactly ;) ... But how would you teach a horse that, who didn`t already have that in place :)
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Firstly, condition the click. Then set up an area with a barrier of some sort around you; this can be as simple as baling twine on the ground circumspecting a 10m circle in which you stand. You teach the horse that he gets clicked and rewarded for his hooves remaining the far side of the 'barrier'.
 
gunnergundog said:
Firstly, condition the click. Then set up an area with a barrier of some sort around you; this can be as simple as baling twine on the ground circumspecting a 10m circle in which you stand. You teach the horse that he gets clicked and rewarded for his hooves remaining the far side of the 'barrier'.
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Thank you :) I do clicker with mine.

Pearlsasinger originally said she didn`t understand why you wouldn`t want the horse to look at you, in response to OP saying you click and treat/reward when the horses head is away from you. I said it`s about teaching the horse not to mug you, PS said hers know NOT to invade personal space, if they do they don`t get a treat, and I said exactly, but how would you teach that to a horse who didn`t already have that in place :) ... and you summed it up perfectly, which goes back to the anti mugging and why it`s an important first step :) (I have a very greedy welsh D cross lol, so it was the first thing I had to teach him for my own safety lol)
 
DCJACE said:
Thank you :) I do clicker with mine.

Pearlsasinger originally said she didn`t understand why you wouldn`t want the horse to look at you, in response to OP saying you click and treat/reward when the horses head is away from you. I said it`s about teaching the horse not to mug you, PS said hers know NOT to invade personal space, if they do they don`t get a treat, and I said exactly, but how would you teach that to a horse who didn`t already have that in place :) ... and you summed it up perfectly, which goes back to the anti mugging and why it`s an important first step :) (I have a very greedy welsh D cross lol, so it was the first thing I had to teach him for my own safety lol)
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Exactly, and additionally, it is a good idea to set this up in such a way that the horse learns without corrections, since using a mix of corrections and rewards in a training session can have quite a few unwanted knock on effects. So while it might work to push away the nose of a curious dog, it is better to avoid having to do that with a horse. We quite enjoy dogs interacting with us face to face and dogs enjoy it too and seek out opportunities to do it, but horses actually prefer a more circumspect approach with much lower energy. That's why the standing to one side and training the horse to stand beside you (as you would if leading), relaxed and facing front, is what you'd like to get as the horse's default behaviour.
The very first behaviour you train using rewards tends to be the one you get thrown at you in times of uncertainty, because it's the most reinforced. So if the first thing you train your horse is to give kisses, expect to get kissed a lot. If the first thing you train is pawing, expect to see a lot of pawing. If the first thing you train is "stand beside me, in a relaxed posture, with your head to the front", well, that's a nice thing to see a lot of :)
 
Brightbay said:
Exactly, and additionally, it is a good idea to set this up in such a way that the horse learns without corrections, since using a mix of corrections and rewards in a training session can have quite a few unwanted knock on effects. So while it might work to push away the nose of a curious dog, it is better to avoid having to do that with a horse. We quite enjoy dogs interacting with us face to face and dogs enjoy it too and seek out opportunities to do it, but horses actually prefer a more circumspect approach with much lower energy. That's why the standing to one side and training the horse to stand beside you (as you would if leading), relaxed and facing front, is what you'd like to get as the horse's default behaviour.
The very first behaviour you train using rewards tends to be the one you get thrown at you in times of uncertainty, because it's the most reinforced. So if the first thing you train your horse is to give kisses, expect to get kissed a lot. If the first thing you train is pawing, expect to see a lot of pawing. If the first thing you train is "stand beside me, in a relaxed posture, with your head to the front", well, that's a nice thing to see a lot of :)
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^^ Yup this lol ... Thank you BB, you explained it a lot better than I was trying to (it`s been a long day lol)
 
I'm afraid I cannot get my head around clicker training :) But I have never had a problem teaching horses to pick up their hooves for me to handle, or any other task I have asked of them, by using 'approach and retreat' and 'reward every try' techniques.....never had to use either a sound or a treat :)
 
Alyth said:
I'm afraid I cannot get my head around clicker training :) But I have never had a problem teaching horses to pick up their hooves for me to handle, or any other task I have asked of them, by using 'approach and retreat' and 'reward every try' techniques.....never had to use either a sound or a treat :)
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IMO Cilcker training is much more about teaching the human the art of timing. Whether you use positive or negative reinforcement if you can let the horse know the exact bit of the behaviour that you want (or don't want in the case of negative reinforcement) then its going to be a hell of a lot easier to communicate with them.

Lots of good trainers - and I suspect you may be one - have a natural understanding of this and therefore no problem. However, a lot of horse owners could do with brushing up this skill and Clicker is a very good way to explain to the human the absolute necessity of good timing if they want an easier life. Clicker has the added benefit of making the whole thing all about praise, which takes a lot of stress out of the training for the human (and the horse) and tends to make both happier beings.

Personally, learning about clicker revolutionised my training. I don't use it that much now, only if I want to train a new higher dressage movement, But, the lessons I learnt on timing have stayed with me and made me a lot more effective.

So, before 'dissing' clicker, look at the wider picture, it really has a lot to offer most horsey owners, even if they take the principle and adapt the actual method to their personal preference!

(PS I think Hannah Dawson Equine videos are fantastic for understanding clicker!)
 
I started clicker training my welsh d two years ago when I first bought him as he was bargy around food - to be expected with a D I suppose :-). I had never heard of it before searching the internet for a reward based method and taught myself, initially from videos and then I bought a couple of books. I love it!! I have found it very easy to use and have a very well behaved pony who is always attentive because of it :-) he's always looking for what I want from him in case it wins him a reward, very food motivated, but because of the clicker training he would never mug you!! As others have said, first condition the click, stand outside stable with clicker and treats and click treat continuously until he starts to prick his ears and look for the treat after the click. Once you have this you can start to train behaviors. Easiest first thing is touch the target, hold a stick ( or siminlar object) in front of his nose and when he sniffs it, click treat, won't take more than maybe 10 repetitions and he will be touching the stick for the treat, repeat for a few sessions and then away you go, teach whatever you want. As you can tell, I love clicker training :-)
 
Brightbay said:
Exactly, and additionally, it is a good idea to set this up in such a way that the horse learns without corrections, since using a mix of corrections and rewards in a training session can have quite a few unwanted knock on effects. So while it might work to push away the nose of a curious dog, it is better to avoid having to do that with a horse. We quite enjoy dogs interacting with us face to face and dogs enjoy it too and seek out opportunities to do it, but horses actually prefer a more circumspect approach with much lower energy. That's why the standing to one side and training the horse to stand beside you (as you would if leading), relaxed and facing front, is what you'd like to get as the horse's default behaviour.
)
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Which is very different from the horse turning its head away from you in anticipation of the reward, which was the behaviour I said that I did not want to encourage in my horses.

I teach my horses (without clicks) not to mug by simply ignoring any pushy behaviour and withholding any reward. I quite agree that a mix of rewards and corrections can be confusing for the horse. I rarely correct but instead simply ignore unwanted behaviour, unless it is dangerous.
 
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