DappleDown
Well-Known Member
Clicker training. Why do it? At the moment it is something I know nothing about.
Reasons for and against please.
Reasons for and against please.
Clicker Training - yes/no?
- Thread starter DappleDown
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Equi
Well-Known Member
I think it works great for a horse with a high food drive and the ability to listen. I have a mini shet who has various tricks up his sleeve done via clicker and will do it for hours on end. I have done it with a tb who had neither a high food drive nor any attention span and after 5 mins he spat the treats out and wandered off unwilling to do anymore.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I taught mine to fetch sticks for a laugh, but generally I prefer more mainstream methods. IMO it can work unless the horse is in a stressful situation, whereby they have more pressing matters to attend to than food.
I think it can work in that the trainer/person is paying attention for the required action, so they take the 'ask' pressure off quickly. I think, personally, that this is as important as the treat.
Tried it ridden once, ended up with treats over the saddle, under the saddle... everywhere!
I think it can work in that the trainer/person is paying attention for the required action, so they take the 'ask' pressure off quickly. I think, personally, that this is as important as the treat.
Tried it ridden once, ended up with treats over the saddle, under the saddle... everywhere!
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I used it with a shettie and she loved it. Learned very quickly not to mug for treats and was always eager to participate in her 'lessons'. It was a way of keeping her active mind busy. I tried it with a bolshy, bargy 3 yo who was a bit negative about people in general and my thinking was that I might change his mind about us... It did not work. He found it very stressful and you could see the 'where's my treat' thought just building up and building up until he threw a hissy fit. Experienced clicker trainers may say I needed to treat more often, break tasks down more so he had more experiences of success and less frustration but it seemed to me that he just could not listen or learn that way. I also tried it with a horse I was attempting to work with who was totally and completely shut down. He showed no interest in learning how to get a treat and seemed not to even know he was being asked a question. He ate the treats happily enough but never offered behaviours to try and get them.
I rarely use clicker anymore, though Amber had a disconcerting habit of trying to bite you when you fed her. So I used it then simply to teach ears forward and politeness around food. It did not take long for her to pair the appearance of the feedbucket with the need to be pleasant.
So basically it suits some and not others ime - and can be used just for the odd behaviour, It does not have to be a whole training system.
It works by reinforcing what you want so you get more of it and ignoring what you don't want so you get less of that. So you gradually shape the response you are after. The skill of it is all in the timing and in understanding how reinforcers work.
I rarely use clicker anymore, though Amber had a disconcerting habit of trying to bite you when you fed her. So I used it then simply to teach ears forward and politeness around food. It did not take long for her to pair the appearance of the feedbucket with the need to be pleasant.
So basically it suits some and not others ime - and can be used just for the odd behaviour, It does not have to be a whole training system.
It works by reinforcing what you want so you get more of it and ignoring what you don't want so you get less of that. So you gradually shape the response you are after. The skill of it is all in the timing and in understanding how reinforcers work.
TGM
Well-Known Member
I think one of the best things about clicker training is that if you learn the method properly it does teach you a lot about how animals learn and gives you a better understanding of everything you do with them. It can encourage an animal to really try and learn what the handler is after, and to keep offering behaviours until it finds that one is rewarded. (As opposed to where an animal gets a negative reaction to offered behaviours, they will often shut down and be wary of offering anything new). The advantage of using a clicker instead of just food rewards is that in some situations you may not be able to treat the animal exactly as the behaviour is being performed, so the clicker acts as a link between the two (as you have already associated the click with food).
The downside of clicker training is that if you don't do it properly you could be reinforcing the wrong behaviours! There is plenty of good information on the internet about the basics of clicker training so definitely worth reading some of that to get a really good understanding of what you are doing.
The downside of clicker training is that if you don't do it properly you could be reinforcing the wrong behaviours! There is plenty of good information on the internet about the basics of clicker training so definitely worth reading some of that to get a really good understanding of what you are doing.
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FlashyP
Well-Known Member
Yes I use it all the time to reinforce any desirable behaviour on the ground or ridden. It’s great to have a signal ‘the click’ to mark exactly when the horse has done the right thing/something you like, etc. An immediate way to communicate to them ‘yes’, which can avoid some of the frustrations of teaching a behaviour in other ways. I also find it excellent for getting the horse’s focus/attention in stressful situations and helps them manage their anxiety. But, it is really, really, important to start in a systematic way, first teach the association of ‘behaviour-click-treat’, mainly taught by target training and secondly teaching manners and rules around food, otherwise, mugging behaviour can occur, which is why so many people are anti-treat training. If done properly, treat-training can actually prevent mugging for food ☺ I recommend looking up Alexandra Kurland if you are interested in learning more about clicker training/positive reinforcement.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
I found this also when I tried. One horse loved it and she was brilliant, helped me train her to lower her head to put a bridle on. My old WB didn’t get it. At all.
That being said I was self taught having watched videos online and read about it so it could have been my timing that was the problem.
fburton
Well-Known Member
I don't use CT regularly for training, preferring a more mainstream, flexible mix of pressure-and-release, reward (either food or something more subtle but still appreciated) without a click signal, etc. (The etc. is worthy of a separate thread!)
However, I have used CT occasionally to correct specific problem behaviours and wouldn't hesitate to do so again if I thought it was the best solution. I consider it as just another tool in the box, and not as the only tool in the box. As a tool it's a very sharp one and needs to be handled diligently to avoid making the horse frustrated and/or creating unwanted behaviours.
The posters above have already made really good points which I won't repeat. I do think the best way to start with a horse is by target training. I use a traffic cone for this because it's a fairly novel object that the horse is likely to investigate and it can be used in a hands-off way. Quick learners get it in a couple of minutes, max; slower and less food-oriented horses can take a bit longer, but not much. I don't recommend the idea of 'loading' or 'charging' the clicker via repeated 'click-treat click-treat' without any specific behaviour being required. That may work well for dogs, but it seems a terribly inefficient way of getting a horse to understand what the click means when target training works so quickly.
However, I have used CT occasionally to correct specific problem behaviours and wouldn't hesitate to do so again if I thought it was the best solution. I consider it as just another tool in the box, and not as the only tool in the box. As a tool it's a very sharp one and needs to be handled diligently to avoid making the horse frustrated and/or creating unwanted behaviours.
The posters above have already made really good points which I won't repeat. I do think the best way to start with a horse is by target training. I use a traffic cone for this because it's a fairly novel object that the horse is likely to investigate and it can be used in a hands-off way. Quick learners get it in a couple of minutes, max; slower and less food-oriented horses can take a bit longer, but not much. I don't recommend the idea of 'loading' or 'charging' the clicker via repeated 'click-treat click-treat' without any specific behaviour being required. That may work well for dogs, but it seems a terribly inefficient way of getting a horse to understand what the click means when target training works so quickly.
BBP
Well-Known Member
I have used clicker training really successfully with my horse, not just for tricks (which he does do) but had great results transforming his lunging from tense and hollow to free schooling in a lovely relaxed swinging outline. This has really improved the quality of his unridden work and benefits his ridden work too. He definitely knows that a click means hes the smartest horse alive.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
I tried it for fun with my old, semi-retired pony and got him to fetch things I threw for him. Never really tried it for anything useful, but I had nothing to lose with him if I didn't do it right. I quite fancy trying it with my youngster but am rather wary in case I mess up.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I used it with my mare who was difficult with her feet. I'd gone through all the de-sensitising with a glove on the end of a broom, but just needed a final push to stop her lifting them up and stamping them down. She is greedy and got it very quickly. She is aggressive around food though so I only use it occasionally because I don't think I'm good enough to make sure I'm getting the timing right to reward the good behaviours.
Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
I go through phases with it. I got my old pony to do a very foot stompy Spanish walk just by clicker training. With the current one we did lots of work on leg handling. I've not done any for ages but I do keep meaning to teach him some tricks as he loves anything like that
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
This thread has got me thinking about clicker for the first time in a while... OP you say you know nothing about it so I guess a brief explanation might help you decide yes or no in your situation with your horse...
Clicker is based on behavioural principles of reinforcement. If you want to change behaviours you can either increase behaviour you want or reduce behaviours you don't want. Anything that increases a behaviour is a reinforcer. So reinforcement focused approaches focus on shaping what you do want instead of fixing, getting rid of what you don't want. It is very powerful and we all use reinforcers all the time even if we aren't fully aware of it. An experimental example of this was a group of university students who were instructed to look interested whenever the lecturer moved back or left, and to look distracted or bored whenever be moved forward or right. He ended the lecture leaning against the far left wall of the lecture theatre without even realising he was doing it or why.
In that case attentive attitude of the students was the reinforcer and he gradually 'learnt' that he was having a better response by being right at the back in the left corner.
Reinforcement comes in 2 forms: positive and negative. BOTH increase behaviour. A positive reinforcer increases behaviour by adding in something pleasant. A negative reinforcer increases behaviour by removing something aversive. In pressure/release the release is a negative reinforcer which is why focusing on the release and not the cue is often the best way to get a better response. It is the release that teaches and rewards. In clicker the click-treat is a positive reinforcer. The click signals the imminent arrival of the treat and is used to very precisely mark the moment the horse did the right thing so you get more of that right thing..... Clicker enthusiasts say positive reinforcement is kinder to the horse than negative reinforcement.
BUT (and here is where I am into opinion now not fact).... I am of the view that this is an artificial distinction:
In pressure/release the pressure can be very subtle. A touch on the rein. Even just an air of expectation and a look in the direction you want a horse to move. On the other hand the presence of a treat bag that remains closed is HIGHLY aversive to some horses. They will find the frustration of that far more difficult to manage so the treat bag can be seen as just another form of pressure.
Similarly the release can be seen as giving the horse exactly what they want which is peace! Some horses really love being released.
In my view the truly great horsemen (people like Ray Hunt) refined pressure/release to the extent that the 'pressure' was barely noticeable and the release perfectly timed and offered to the slightest try. So the horses went from barely responding to high quality responses in minutes.
Pressure/release also strikes me as more flexible. With clicker, 1 hand clicks then you need to treat. Doing it from the saddle is a pain but even on the ground you can easily run out of hands! And there is a finite amount of carrot pieces you can give whereas I have heard trainers using pressure release talk about offering literally hundreds of releases in a training session.
But it definitely has a place. Like an above poster said - it is a powerful tool. I prefer other tools for every day handling/riding but it is highly useful in certain situations.
Clicker is based on behavioural principles of reinforcement. If you want to change behaviours you can either increase behaviour you want or reduce behaviours you don't want. Anything that increases a behaviour is a reinforcer. So reinforcement focused approaches focus on shaping what you do want instead of fixing, getting rid of what you don't want. It is very powerful and we all use reinforcers all the time even if we aren't fully aware of it. An experimental example of this was a group of university students who were instructed to look interested whenever the lecturer moved back or left, and to look distracted or bored whenever be moved forward or right. He ended the lecture leaning against the far left wall of the lecture theatre without even realising he was doing it or why.
In that case attentive attitude of the students was the reinforcer and he gradually 'learnt' that he was having a better response by being right at the back in the left corner.
Reinforcement comes in 2 forms: positive and negative. BOTH increase behaviour. A positive reinforcer increases behaviour by adding in something pleasant. A negative reinforcer increases behaviour by removing something aversive. In pressure/release the release is a negative reinforcer which is why focusing on the release and not the cue is often the best way to get a better response. It is the release that teaches and rewards. In clicker the click-treat is a positive reinforcer. The click signals the imminent arrival of the treat and is used to very precisely mark the moment the horse did the right thing so you get more of that right thing..... Clicker enthusiasts say positive reinforcement is kinder to the horse than negative reinforcement.
BUT (and here is where I am into opinion now not fact).... I am of the view that this is an artificial distinction:
In pressure/release the pressure can be very subtle. A touch on the rein. Even just an air of expectation and a look in the direction you want a horse to move. On the other hand the presence of a treat bag that remains closed is HIGHLY aversive to some horses. They will find the frustration of that far more difficult to manage so the treat bag can be seen as just another form of pressure.
Similarly the release can be seen as giving the horse exactly what they want which is peace! Some horses really love being released.
In my view the truly great horsemen (people like Ray Hunt) refined pressure/release to the extent that the 'pressure' was barely noticeable and the release perfectly timed and offered to the slightest try. So the horses went from barely responding to high quality responses in minutes.
Pressure/release also strikes me as more flexible. With clicker, 1 hand clicks then you need to treat. Doing it from the saddle is a pain but even on the ground you can easily run out of hands! And there is a finite amount of carrot pieces you can give whereas I have heard trainers using pressure release talk about offering literally hundreds of releases in a training session.
But it definitely has a place. Like an above poster said - it is a powerful tool. I prefer other tools for every day handling/riding but it is highly useful in certain situations.
soloequestrian
Well-Known Member
I've used it with my youngster and found it really helpful, not only for basic training but for when things go a bit wrong e.g. she got really grumpy about being groomed for a while and started waving a leg around or turning to threaten me. It was very easy to get sucked into a negative way of dealing with this - smack for bad behaviour - which made us both miserable and me not want to work on grooming. I started using the clicker and rewarding the good (i.e. standing still to be groomed) and that worked well and made us both cheerful and look forward to grooming. I think it's easy in a lot of situations to automatically start to use punishment like I was starting to, but having the clicker as a tool makes you think of other ways of dealing with things. You don't actually need a clicker in reality - an obvious and consistent signal of any kind will do the same thing, but the clicker is very easy to keep consistent whereas voice bridges are much less so. In practice though I find that physically having the clicker makes me focus on opporotunites for reward better than when I don't have it so really it's a training tool for me as much as the horse.
Sleipnir
Well-Known Member
Positive reinforcement has worked REALLY well on my previously bolshy, dominant gelding, who is now like an angel when being fed, lead and groomed, and has helped to overcome his phobia of trains, ATVs and motorcycles. If done correctly, I find it's a wonderful tool and, with the right horse, can be used in almost every training situation. I don't, however, use it in general riding and groundwork practices, but only because I'm so used to the more traditional methods and they work well, too. Also, I have never used an actual clicker - just a consistent vocal cue.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
I found useful for my old horse, who had a grumpy attitude towards work and being a teenager at the time, I was no Ray Hunt with pressure/release.
The horse who I have had for a long time now is very easy to train with conventional pressure/release methods but she gets pretty wound up when she thinks there's the possibility she might get a treat. That said, I taught her Spanish walk and parking out with positive reinforcement methods. I don't think it would be a practical way to rider her because she'd get more stressed about not getting a treat than she is waiting for the release.
The horse who I have had for a long time now is very easy to train with conventional pressure/release methods but she gets pretty wound up when she thinks there's the possibility she might get a treat. That said, I taught her Spanish walk and parking out with positive reinforcement methods. I don't think it would be a practical way to rider her because she'd get more stressed about not getting a treat than she is waiting for the release.
laura_nash
Well-Known Member
I had a go with this when I was pregnant as something fun to do in-hand. Unfortunately my current (very food-orientated and previously bargy) cob finds the whole concept just too exciting. He gets so over-excited at the possibility of treats he can't concentrate enough to actually learn anything. He'd probably be ok with a very experienced clicker trainer, but he's not one to learn with. Although I don't really do clicker anymore I found the clicker books very interesting and do still use the concepts I learnt (e.g. shaping plans) in my training, just without any clicker or treats.
canteron
Well-Known Member
I use clicker when introducing a new concept - from a trick to complicated schooling movements to useful things such as holding a foot up to be picked out.
What I love most about is it makes my overall training so much better. It teaches you to look for the positive and build on that, which makes everything so much nicer (and more successful) than focussing on the negative.
Hannah Dawson did some great on line videos which I thought were excellent. I think she now operates under connection training, might be worth googling her.
What I love most about is it makes my overall training so much better. It teaches you to look for the positive and build on that, which makes everything so much nicer (and more successful) than focussing on the negative.
Hannah Dawson did some great on line videos which I thought were excellent. I think she now operates under connection training, might be worth googling her.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I totally agree that one of the positives of clicker is the mind set it creates in the trainer! Build on what you want instead of using 'punishment' based approaches to stop what you don't want (punishment there being used in the behavioural sense of anything that reduces a behaviour so the opposite of a reinforcer). Pressure release can be the same- looking for the try so you can offer the release .
katastrophykat
Well-Known Member
I started with a few sessions of on target training with Shawna Karrasch, who is brilliant and her timing is fantastic. I’ve let it slip with my boy just recently and it has its downsides- he gets very ‘excited’ (Gelding) is a way that he doesn’t with any other training but within a very short time he was playing hide and seek (standing while I hid the target, seeking it out, touching and returning to me for his reward) and reducing stress around hard feed. I can pick it up any time and he responds well, I just stop again when he gets overstimulated...! I see it as a good break after a hard work day when he’s fit so he does something rather than a rest day but nothing physically strenuous.
spookypony
Well-Known Member
Some excellent summaries, will add just a few points:
The reinforcer/reward doesn't need to be food, and the marker signal can be anything that is precise and distinct and reserved for the purpose (people have trained goldfish using a flash of light).
It's a method that requires precision and understanding to be used to its full potential, though the principle is simple. Would recommend going to clinics/getting instruction.
When people encounter problems such as over-greedy animals, it's often because they've skipped basic steps. Can highly recommend anything Alexandra Kurland writes/her online course.
It is not a quick fix. It can help an animal learn something extremely fast, but if, for example, you want to get it to do something it really doesn't want to do or is worried about, you still need to take as long as it takes, and no less. I speak from personal experience.
The reinforcer/reward doesn't need to be food, and the marker signal can be anything that is precise and distinct and reserved for the purpose (people have trained goldfish using a flash of light).
It's a method that requires precision and understanding to be used to its full potential, though the principle is simple. Would recommend going to clinics/getting instruction.
When people encounter problems such as over-greedy animals, it's often because they've skipped basic steps. Can highly recommend anything Alexandra Kurland writes/her online course.
It is not a quick fix. It can help an animal learn something extremely fast, but if, for example, you want to get it to do something it really doesn't want to do or is worried about, you still need to take as long as it takes, and no less. I speak from personal experience.