Clicker training

M

MollyMoomin

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 February 2010
Messages
829
Location
Leeds, West Yorkshire
www.petandanimalfeeds.co.uk
Any good? Does it work? Or is it the dog equivalent of Parelli?!

At puppy training last night, we were given a 15minute lecture on how amazing it was and they handed out clickers (which were meant to be given back at the end - guess who forgot? : pikey: ) for us to try. I wanted Herman to stop rubbing his head, trying to get his bloody Dogmatic headcollar off - which worked, mainly I think because he was trying to work out what the silly noise was. We also taught him to wave using the clicker (although I do hesitate to say we taught him - he knows how to high five so I just ignored the first attempt at high five, so he 'waved' his paw 2/3 times trying to work out if that's what I wanted). Sadly, the new information in his head has caused the 'down' command and it's meaning to leak out of his head....

Anyway. We're doing the KC silver award at the moment and we cannot for the life of us stay in a down position (once he's there!!) for longer than 30seconds. We managed 50 seconds last night which was cause for great excitement. I had to be in front of him though pointing at the floor. Would clicker training work for that? I'm meant to be a distance away (I forget how far though) and he's to stay in a down for 2 minutes. We're so rubbish at it at training - at home he will downstay for hours (and not just when he's asleep), at training he gives absolutely no warning he's about to shift at all. Everyone else goes and hides in another room and their dogs all stay perfectly :jealous:

Rambling, sorry. So, clicker training, yay or nay? They said it would help with his recall (out walking, if we see another dog, he's off to play no matter what I do so we're lungeline walking if we're out where we will see another dog) but I don't see how as I need him to at least think about coming back to me when I call him and at the moment we still don't get that. He doesn't really have any high value treats - we've tried liver, fishy bites, chicken, ham, cheese, gravy bones (they got spat out), some own brand semi moist treats we do, sausages, biscrok (again, got spat out) and cat biscuits , but I don't see how if he won't come back for treats 100% that he will for a clicker (and treats...)? Because surely, he's coming back for the treats, not the clicker? Or am I missing the point?

*phew* I am trying so hard with his recall but at the moment failing. The pair of us are bored stiff with the current walk we're doing - it's an out and back job - but we're guarenteed not to see any other dogs (private land) and he can go off lead. I can recall him off rabbits, birds, cats (well, ours, we haven't seen any out yet. I'm not so convinced about cats, actually - he plays with ours, the difference being that if they get bored, they can climb one of their trees and get away from him soon). And I hate lungeline walking with a passion. I'd love to take him on the Chevin (country park near us) and know that I'm not going to spend half my time apologising and the other chasing after him because, actually, trying to make a grumpy rottie which has a muzzle on anyway is really not a good idea....

Urgh, wine, chocolates, pink roses, Ikea Dime bar cake for anyone who read all that and both sympathises and can give me suggestions....
 
I use it and I love it:) But is isn't a magic solution to all woes;)

Re the playing with other dogs - the clicker can't get his attention, you need to have that already. I would look at teaching him to focus on you - which you can clicker train - without the distraction of other dogs to begin with. Also, get him used to not greeting other dogs when he's on the lead, just keep him walking on past and ask other people not to bring their dogs over as your is in training. He needs to get the idea that other dogs are not always there to play with.

You don't have to give a food reward - a favourite toy would work just as well if he prefers that. What breed is he? The clicker is basically a marker which you use at the precise time that he does whatever it is he is supposed to - you load the clicker, by randomly clicking and rewarding so that he becomes conditioned to the click being a very good thing. The idea is that rewarding with a toy or food can be imprecise, as there is a short delay between the correct action by the dog, and the reward reaching the dog, meaning that he may not undertsand exactly what he has done that is so good. The click provides a bridge, so the dog understands exactly what it is that he has done right.

Finally, I would go for a one-to-one session with a good trainer that uses clicker training - I can recommend one in north Suffolk if that's any use to you!

I would forget the down stays and focus on recall for the time being as a down stay is a bonus, but a good recall is a must-have, especially if it is limiting your walking:) I do feel your pain, as you know Henry and I have our struggles with recall as well;)

Good luck - I hope this helps!
 
it is a fantstic training method, done both mine since pups. Not a magical solution, but definately a good method to have in your arsenal!
 
Spudlet said:
I use it and I love it:) But is isn't a magic solution to all woes;)
Click to expand...

Appreciate that! I will do the outandback walk a few more times with the ill-gotten clicker I have here. So when he's away from me and I recall him, do I click as soon as his attention switches from the smell to me and wait till he comes back to treat him or do I wait till he gets back to me to click-treat together?

He's an 11month old (entire) Weimaraner and I swear it was that fact alone that got him through his bronze award - the trainer has 2 Weims but she isn't overly useful in that anything he does is 'because he's a Weim' :nothelpful:

Suffolk miles away! Although parents live near Cambridge so could maybe tie in with a parental visitation. We live between Leeds & Harrogate.

Edit - no offense meant re the Parelli thing! I will try it (clicker), just very wary of being too slow and clicking the wrong behaviour!
 
Last edited:
Big yay for me, but of course it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Clicker training is based on operant conditioning, something we all do without thinking anyway and which can be part of many different training systems. Apologies if you are already familiar with operant conditioning, but if not, in a nut shell these are the main ideas: the roots of operant conditioning can be found in the work of Pavlov who noticed that dogs waiting to be fed salivated at the sight of the white coats of the people feeding them (salivating is a reflexive response to food, but it had now been transfered to something completely different, i.e. the white coats) - this insight can be used to change behaviour.

Here's is how it works in clicker training: the 'click' is merely a sound, a marker of the correct behaviour. In theory you can use any sound, e.g. you can say 'good boy', but the clicker has the advantage of being really quick and always neutral (if the dog has pissed off for 2 hours it's difficult to smile and say 'good boy' in a positive manner when he finally returns!!). The 'click' is associated with a reward, food being the easiest, but freedom, toy, praise or stroke can also work. The dog then knows that hearing the click will produce food. Another principle of this kind of training is that behaviour that is rewarded is repeated, behaviour that is not rewarded (by ignoring it, by not rewarding or by punishing) is avoided.

So, what you need now is some way of getting the dog to produce the correct behaviour for the first time. This can be accidental (you notice the dog sitting and you click) or you can use a lure (treat on dog's nose until he leans back and sits). As soon as you get the behaviour you click and treat. Repeat 2-3 times and wait. Behaviour that is rewarded is repeated, so (maybe after thinking about it for a bit) your dog will sit all by himself - click and treat. When the behaviour is established you start saying the word 'sit' as a prompt for the behaviour that the dog is already willing to produce.

Clicker for recall: everytime the dog is near you click and treat. This establishes that being near you is a behaviour you will reward. Then start in a small space and use the command "dog's name, come" (this is one of the few times when the command comes before the behaviour is established because the lively voice works as a prompt for the behaviour), click and treat. Ask a friend to stand a couple of metres away from you and do the same thing. Keep calling the dog to you and back to your friend. Each time click when the dog has come back to you. You are conditioning the dog to respond to 'Dog's name, come" by being by your side.

Click and stay: Establish a 'sit' or 'down' using the clicker as above and then start delaying the click so that the dog remains sitting/down. If the dog gets up during this period, turn away from the dog saying 'try again" and come back to the start of the exercise. Over time change one variable at a time, i.e. either lengthen the time the dog sits while you are immobile, or keep the time short but start moving around a bit. Don't make it progressively harder, throw in some easy ones so that the dog does not give up. Betty learnt out of sight sit/stays, down/stays for 5 minutes this way.

Good luck!
 
MollyMoomin said:
So when he's away from me and I recall him, do I click as soon as his attention switches from the smell to me and wait till he comes back to treat him or do I wait till he gets back to me to click-treat together?

just very wary of being too slow and clicking the wrong behaviour!
Click to expand...

Hope you don't mind me butting in!

First decide which behaviour you want to reward then click it. So you could decide to reward your dog for looking at you, usually I link this behaviour to the dog's name, so 'dog's name' means pay me attention. Or you could reward the behaviour of coming back to you (even that can be done in more detail, e.g. you could decide to reward for come back and allow me to place a couple of fingers under your colar, or come back and present as in obedience training).

Clicking the wrong behaviour happens to everyone! Don't worry about it, put it down to experience and continue.
 
OK - first of all, the clicker needs to be properly primed and ready so it is a really strong reward marker for him.

To start with, I would wait until he starts to stop sniffing and get his attention back on you, then call him as you need to be sure of success to start with. Then jump up and dpwn, wave your arms, run away, get him to run after you. As he arrives and takes his final step towards you, then is the moment to click, praise him and treat him with his favourite toy, food or whatever, so he is in no doubt about what he's done right:)
 
Sorry, just to add... if you decide the behaviour is coming back to you, then click when the dog gets there (then you can take your time to fish out a treat, the dog will know it is coming). This is why you want the dog to be there already a few times anyway, so you can click and treat, thus conditioning the response.
 
Right. Tomorrow we will go to our boring walk and we will train so it's not boring!

Treats go in a little plastic sandwich bag so will fill it with loads of different treats -sausages are a current favourite, he hasn't had them for a while, will cut them up nice and small. He isn't that bothered about toys - well, he is, but the one he goes back to most at the moment is one of those Nina Ottosen Twister games - not overly practical to take walking! I'll see if I can find any bits of rag one of his old plush toys to take with us too.

Just thought, it's the weekend! We can go on the longer boring walk, which involves road walking (can click not walking along on his chin, which is what he normally attempts in his headcollar) and then walking back through the park on the lead (can click when he ignores other dogs!).

Let me get this straight though (I have days of being incredibly dense and this is one of them) - he gets a click-treat when he gets back to my side, and not when he first steps towards me?

Thank you everyone - I need to buy lots of Dime bar cake!
 
If sniffing is his thing, you can also use that as a reward by teaching him to sniff around you. Take a favoured toy or yummy treat, and encourage him to hunt the ground around you, by waving your hand over the ground and telling him to 'find it' (best do this on the lunge line in case he sets off on a scent you didn't intend!). Then when he is absorbed, flick the toy or treat out onto the ground when he is not looking so he finds it - when of course you make a huge fuss of him for being so clever :) I'd look for a gundog trainer tbh, as they will be able to help you channel his hunting drive:) I am a big fan of working out what your dog really wants to do, and then using it to train them.

If you go onto Horse and Country TV's website, look up Howard Kirby and watch his videos as he gives some good tips, on clicker training and gundog work too. I had a question answered in the ask the expert bit too, kudos if you can spot which one is mine;)
 
MollyMoomin said:
Let me get this straight though (I have days of being incredibly dense and this is one of them) - he gets a click-treat when he gets back to my side, and not when he first steps towards me?
Click to expand...

It's entirely up to you. The behaviour that is rewarded will be repeated, so if you reward for a step, then he will tend to offer a step. If you reward for being next to you, or touching your hand, or sitting in front of you, this is the behaviour that is likely to be repeated. The best thing is to decide on the behaviour you want and wait till you get it, so you can click and reward. Personally when I say "dog's name, come" I want the dog to come close to me and accept me holding his colar - this is helpful for safety reasons as you can then decide when to release the dog. Some dogs can recall and then shy away from you and run off again which may cause problems.

Another way of developing a behaviour is shaping. Some behaviours are too complex to get in one go, so you break them down in smaller steps. E.g. rolling over can be broken down into a down, then a down with the head turning to look behind the dog's shouldern, then the hip collapsing, then feet coming off the ground, then semi-turn and finally roll over. You work on each step at a time, so the first day you might just do down and turn the head to look over the shoulder. Progressively you shape the entire behaviour.
 
I use a clicker just for teaching "tricks" rather than basic training. I would agree it is a good idea to have a session with a trainer, or get a good book before you start. As an "old school" trainer it took me a while to grasp that the click wasn't actually the reward just the signal they were doing right and was a bit sceptical but its certainly worked for Evie. As soon as I reach for the clicker in the kitchen (we do our trick training whilst I'm cooking), Evie is with me, in fact I have to be quite firm to stop her offering the various tricks before I ask.:)
 
Are there any forum-recommended books? Nice and simple for a dumbass to understand ;)

More questions - he is currently walked in a Dogmatic headcollar because I cannot hold him once he sets off pulling - which is almost straight away, especially when he realises we're about to go somewhere he can run! He hates it and walks along like a sheep, trying to rub it off. Or does a squirrel impression and sits and scrabbles at his nose with his paws. So the first behaviour I want to stop is that as the first part of the walk is on the lead. Would I clicktreat when he isn't doing it constantly at first, or do it once when he's not scrabbling then walk maybe 10 steps and do it again (if he still isn't/isn't at that time scrabbling). Infuriatingly he will walk to heel off the lead (and with the Dogmatic on), but won't on it, whether he's being led off the Dogmatic (we have a training lead, one end on the Dogmatic, the other on his collar) or his collar only.

Then, when we get to the fields, he'll come off lead (and keep his Dogmatic on) and everytime he comes back to me - whether I've asked him to or not - he'll get a clicktreat. Yes? Is this the right way to go about it? Once that is all established and I want to introduce other dogs into things, I do the same but off the lunge line?

I think I make him out to be some kind of crazyassed grey fool (and myself utterly dense...) but he isn't really, he is a good boy. He knows on arable fields unless it's ploughed he either has to stick to the edge on on a track/in the tramlines. And he's great at cuddles... :straws,clutching: !
 
A big YAY from me as well. I use clicker training with both my BC's. I also use it for trick training but still work on the basic sit/down/stand. I've started using a target stick as well. It's funny when they offer random tricks in an attempt to make that clicker sound as they know it means a treat lol. The things they can be taught using clicker training is never ending. One of Storm's favourite tricks is the stacking rings, you know the ones, the toy for babies with different sized coloured rings that stack on a base. I throw the rings for him and he brings them back and stacks them on the base.
 
kirstyhen said:
Our local shop sells them actually, and a snickers one! I feel a trip coming on!
Click to expand...

Are you anywhere near Harrogate?! I neeeeeeed one now.

Clicker training has started - he's just gone trundling off to see what food other offices have so called him back and clicked him when he was back. Has still forgotten how to lie down though :rollseyes:
 
As I understand it, it began with that they adapted Dolphin training with shaping whistles to "common" dog training, then years later somebody came up with the idea to replace the shaping whistles with the clickers and now, by some reason, some people insists on that clicker training is very different than other training.


When you're using a training method that uses rewards to reinforce desired behaviour, the timing is an essential part, for how successful the training will be.
Without a clicker, you need to focus on rewarding in the right moment, so that you reward the behaviour that you really want to reward and not what happens x seconds later.
With a clicker, you need to focus on that you click in the right moment, so that you reward the behaviour that you really want to reward and not what happens x seconds later.

So basically I believe that it is the same training, only with or without clicker and in general, I think that a clicker is first of all, a gadget that helps the owner to really focus on their dog while training, to be able to click in the right moment but, inevitably, it also has a different sound that is easy for the dog to notice.


I've tried training with a clicker and for me it only made training more complicated, I forgot clicking or focused so much on remembering to click, that I clicked in the wrong moment, so to cut a long story short, training with a clicker is not for me.
But I still train the same as I would with a clicker, focusing on timing my rewards to the behaviour that I want.



Don't ask me why but on the few occasions when I tried training my late bitches with a shaping whistle, it worked much better for me than the clicker.

And especially since you mentioned off lead training, I would anyhow have recommended trying a shaping whistle before a clicker, since I do believe that they can hear the whistle when they're further away from us, than compared to the clicker.

:)
 
Try Elizabeth Kershaw's "Go Click!". She trained me and I think the book is very clear and well layed out.

On the Dogmatic headcollar you have three options:
- change for another headcollar he does not object to, e.g. if it's too tight, rubbing, etc.

- train an incompatible behaviour. Train a behaviour which is incompatible with rubbing his face, such as nose targeting. Nose targeting is training a dog to touch something (usually start with the palm of your hand) with his nose for a click and reward. Sounds silly, but it actually turns out to be one of the most useful things ever (for recall, positioning, moving the dog around, etc.). Once he has learnt this you can ask him to target your hand as you walk along (a waist pouch for the treats is ideal, so that the dog is targeting your left hand, your right hand is clicking and the treats are nearby). Nose targeting is very helpful for developing the really close heel, collies tend to do naturally. You teach the dog to nose target a piece of paper, make it progressively smaller and then stick it on your trousers at the level of the dog's nose - instant dog attached to your leg!

- Train him to ask for the headcollar he now dislikes. At fist click and treat for approaching the collar, then touching the headcollar, then willingly putting his nose in the headcollar, then willingly keeping his nose in the headcollar (remember not to always make the training progressively more difficult, often go back to easier behaviours). That way he will associate the headcollar with the positive experience.
 
FinnishLapphund said:
As I understand it, it began with that they adapted Dolphin training with shaping whistles to "common" dog training, then years later somebody came up with the idea to replace the shaping whistles with the clickers and now, by some reason, some people insists on that clicker training is very different than other training.
Click to expand...

As I understand it the real break-through came with the dolphin training but as compared to previous methods of training - the dolphin training and clicker are identical other than the use of different markers. Prior to that most common methods of training domestic animals involved hands on approaches, e.g. pushing the bottom down to get a sit, using a choke collar to correct. When it came to dolphins it became apparent quite quickly that this would not work as the trainer could not get his hands on the animal to either instruct or correct.

What was needed was a marker to identify the correct behaviour from afar and applying insights of operant conditioning to link the stimulus, to the behaviour, to the marker, to the reward without any physical contact.


I am not that familiar with the whistle but as far as I understand it, whistles operate in the following ways:
- to attract the attention of the dog
- to give commands

The clicker does neither of these two things, rather it comes after the correct behaviour. The correct behaviour can be 'give me your attention', but you don't get this with the clicker, you only mark it with the clicker. So the stimulus could be "dog's name" said in a high pitch voice, the behaviour is that the dog looks at you, the clicker marks that particular moment over all the other things the dog is doing before and after, and as the clicker is associated with the reward the dog identifies the behaviour as the correct one for producing the reward and therefore repeats it.

The link between food and reward is there, the trick is to associate this to the desired behaviour, so that it becomes conditioned, i.e. the behaviour occurs every time the stimulus is applied, no matter what.

Typically, clicker trained dogs will offer behaviour in an effort to figure out what will get them clicked. As soon as a behaviour is identified as the correct one by the click, it will be immediately repeated. This makes it really easy to teach new behaviours. I used to go to these fun clicker competitions. You'd arrive with a team of 4 dogs and handlers. Every team would be issued with 4 complex tasks, you had to decide which dog would do which task and had 2 hours to train. Then everyone would do their tasks and the team getting the most right would win! It was really good fun!
 
I take it his lunge is not attached to the headcollar? Because if it is, that may be why he isn't keen to return, it will really weigh his head down. Apologies if I have misunderstood.

With the downstay, get markers (I use small floor tiles) and set them in a triangle. This is your mark and helps you remember where to put him when he moves away. And just repeat. The minute he moves, 'ah-ah' put him back. Repeat ad nauseum, the longer he stays, the bigger the reward.
Move the markers about so that he doesn't associate the stay with one place, bring them to training with you.

I got a dog who wouldn't sit still for two seconds to a ten-minute downstay with no communication in a matter of weeks. I can now leave him in a spot at club and go and have a chinwag with the other members, he's chilled.
00029-1.jpg
 
Promise promise promise the lunge isn't attached to the headcollar - do not fancy a pupski with a broken neck! When we go lungeline walking, he wears his Dogmatic with one end of the training lead on his collar and the other on the headcollar - I can't hold him when he's desperate to gogogo, I need the Dogmatic (have tried others, but they all rub his eyes and he managed to pull THROUGH a Halti - God knows how). The lungeline is attached to a chest harness he wears, so I can walk him (very briefly!) closely after unclipping the training lead. He is getting better and now waits to be told he can go, rather that just haring off.

I think all my gadgetry puts me on a par with those that wear spurs, carry a whip and ride in a gag and strappy noseband! I am determined to get rid of it all though.

Did not think of kitchen tiles - we're having our entire house redecorated at the moment, I will steal some spare tiles! Great idea. And I spent ages looking at totally the wrong point in the picture for your dog and wondered why you'd posted a picture of you stood in a field :blushes: :thick:

Forgot the clicker for the actual walk, but was click treating him into his new crate (his new 'room' is under the stairs). He was never really very keen on his old crate but would never chose to go in it. By this afternoon he was taking himself into his BarkyBedroom -yes I come up with some rubbish names for stuff - and laying down. However, I was in that room - the test will be tomorrow when I move into the kitchen. I will have to instruct myself not to keep looking for him though as that will defeat the object!
 
No worries. Would you believe I once saw an old gentleman walking a GSD on a halti attached to a heavy chain once, I nearly crashed the car!!!

(Yeah, he is up the top end, there is a wee red flag to mark his place :p
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top