Clones of Great Horses (If you're interested)

[jcwh]

just thought it was pretty interesting:

 

[eventrider23]

Contentious subject I am not sure I agree with as in a way whilst yes preserving top performance bloodlines but I think it could also stunt breeding as the bloodlines are still out there....just several generations down...and so to be breeding from especially the older bloodline clones like Gem Twist, it is almost a step back. Anyway....off my soap box....i see they already have foals from the clones of Pieraz and E.T.

 

[charleysummer]

Being sciencey minded i find it very interesting, and think it would be very interesting to see how they turn out compared to their 'original' so to speak.
However i can't help feeling that breeding from cloned horses is a step back, as surely by evolution and selective breeding, desirable traits are becoming more prominant through each generation- so looping the same generation over again is surely going to stick the breeding industry in a bit of a time warp; and not give other horses a chance to become a desired bloodline like these other horses already have.

Maybe im totally wrong and seeing it from the wrong perspective, i don't have a great deal of knowledge into cloning and breeding but just how i see it.

 

[Mugsgame]

Okay - I think I will be a little two sided here!!

Scientifically, I find this fascinating - are these actual pictures of the various clones on the floor? (Admit I am taken aback as to how far things have already gone!). Genetically, I understand these animals are 'identical' to the 'original', but the phenotypes are not identical! So... how do you sort the wheat from the chaff? They may look similar, but they arent the same - a couple of those foals are different to look at, and if they are different on that level, how can you tell what else is going on. I am not a big fan of lab rats but on a curiosity scale it would be interesting to see what sorts of progeny they would throw. You can clone the individual but you cant repeat his original offspring from him - you would have to clone them instead, wouldnt you?!!

Morally and for the sake of breeding in general, I personally find the thought of this horrific! For the reasons above, I think you could take a very backwards step by returning to 'old' blood, genetic diversity being the way forward with so many species these days, here we hypothetically have another tool for inbreeding (and in the most peculiar way!). What a mixed up pedigree you could present yourself with, not to mention again there is no guarrantee you will end up with offspring of any use - and added to the fact that it wasnt all genetics that made these horses 'great' in the first place - it was environment, handling, riders, opportunities and to a greater or lesser extent - a lot of these components are tied together by luck!

Very, very interesting though - and I imagine food for great thought!!! Thank you for posting!!

 

[eventrider23]

Mugsgame - how the genetics side works is on % of markings....so say the original horse has a massive blaze and one sock and that equals X% of white in it's overall colouring.....the clone will have that same X% of white....just not necessarily distributed in the same way. All the above are indeed clones and it is interesting to see that the Ratina clones are the ones most alike their original. What I don't agree with is these cloned stallions getting automatic studbook approval without having to be presented as Pieraz and AT Clones did with Zangersheide. I know some will say that that is based on the fact that their originals were more than proven, etc and it is the genetics you are grading, however, who is to say that regardless of performance those originals that they would have passed gradings themselves??? They were gelded for reasons after all. I think in fact if this is to be all above board that things like any gradings, etc should be MORE public with the clones to show nothing to hide and that they are worthy of their stallion status because as has already been mentioned, a lot of their talent is not just genetic, although of course it is there to be tapped into, but who is to say that they are meant to be sires?

In addition, I read somewhere that they have now isolated the OCD gene and been able to remove it from clones of horses with it such as Levisto...surely then this makes it no longer a clone as it is no longer genetically identical to the original but in fact a genetically modified horse????

I am fascinated by the science of it all so do not get me wrong that I am totally against this but I think a lot more needs to be open and clear for all to see.

 

[Ciss]

Being sciencey minded i find it very interesting, and think it would be very interesting to see how they turn out compared to their 'original' so to speak.
However i can't help feeling that breeding from cloned horses is a step back, as surely by evolution and selective breeding, desirable traits are becoming more prominant through each generation- so looping the same generation over again is surely going to stick the breeding industry in a bit of a time warp; and not give other horses a chance to become a desired bloodline like these other horses already have.

Maybe im totally wrong and seeing it from the wrong perspective, i don't have a great deal of knowledge into cloning and breeding but just how i see it.

Personally I think you are totally right, especially as the increasingly technical demands of the Olympic disciplines are more and more designed to test the thinking skills of the rider (esp in jumping) and what was successful once may not be as successful / trainable under different competition requirements.

I actually once had a very public disagreemnt with Twink Allen at the National Equine Forum when he was asking for funding to solve the world's eventing breeding problems by cloning Charisma (not ever an ideal prospect as an eventing breeding stallion I would have thought being a ranch bred 15.3 hh stcokhorse gelding!) and the chairman managed to cleverly defuse it by suggestion that the best suggestion would be to clone Pippa . Now that woudl give the FEI something to get its teeth into!

 

[Ciss]

What I don't agree with is these cloned stallions getting automatic studbook approval without having to be presented as Pieraz and AT Clones did with Zangersheide. I know some will say that that is based on the fact that their originals were more than proven, etc and it is the genetics you are grading, however, who is to say that regardless of performance those originals that they would have passed gradings themselves??? They were gelded for reasons after all. I think in fact if this is to be all above board that things like any gradings, etc should be MORE public with the clones to show nothing to hide and that they are worthy of their stallion status because as has already been mentioned, a lot of their talent is not just genetic, although of course it is there to be tapped into, but who is to say that they are meant to be sires?.

And a further long-term problem is that first generation clones are banned from competing under FEI rules, which is why there is such a rush to get progeny of the clones on the ground so that they can compete (they are not banned by the FEI) and prove the success or otherwise of the operation.

It all seems a very expensive business when compared to how a little selective line breeding would re-inforce the presence of a stallion in any particualr pedigree in a much less contentious and controllable way. But that is to disregard the sort of money that can be made from clones if they are successful sires of course. Clones of Totilas next perhaps?