Close line-breeding - any thoughts?

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htobago

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Just booked a beautiful mare to my stally Tobago - she is by Tobago's grandsire - the legendary Padrons Psyche.

I'm thrilled - not just cos the mare is a champion, very typey and a super mover, but because I've been wanting to line-breed to Padrons Psyche with my boy.

Arab breeders do this sort of close line-breeding quite a lot, but I just wondered what breeders on here think of it?
 
i know it is also done with Highlands to an extent, historically that might have more to do with a lack of good Highland stallions, therefore you only had the choice of one within 200 miles outside of Scotland. It is still done (in fact Emerald will be revisiting her Nashend links when she goes to a highland stallion)
 
I make that around 37% blood concentration on that stallion and a 2x3 (2 generations back from the foal on the Dam side and 3 generations back in sire). Its a bit closer than the usual TB matings which are generally speaking in 3x4 or greater and usually carried out using an individual that is itself mildly inbred (americans refer to this as linebreeding, which in TB means something different).

But I have seen some extemely intensley inbred Arab peds so this is mild.

It's an excellent way to concentrate blood from good common ancestors. With TB's it has proved very successful and it's not common to see an exceptional individual that is not inbred in some way, especially since Frederico Tesio made such a huge success of it in the first half of the 19th centuary princially with the use of Gallopin and his son St Simon. He produce a disproportionate amount of good racehorses from foundation stock that though well related were not themselves top performers.

A very modest man he did not credit himself but suggests that breeding for perfomance will inevitably lead to inadvertant inbreeding as performance appears to be concentrated in families with common ancestors.

I'm a huge fan of it and am expecting a very special foal next year inbred on two top perfoming ancestors. It's a shame it is not practised more in other performance areas as it does work. Though you do have to be careful about who you chose to inbreed on and aware of any lemons you might inadertantly be concentrating as well!!

I do know of the use Father Daughter matings to test the true potential of their stallion to reproduce his own type and performance. It would certainly tell you what he is really made of!
 
father daugher matings? Is that no tooo close?

Of the two stallions I know that have both accidentally covered their daughers one was absolutely mental - totally unridable and a bit scary to handle and the other only lived to a few months old and was described as 'lights on but nobody home', althouth the latter was welsh A's no idea about their breeding and the 1st was a wb x connie filly covered by the wb.
 
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father daugher matings? Is that no tooo close?

Of the two stallions I know that have both accidentally covered their daughers one was absolutely mental - totally unridable and a bit scary to handle and the other only lived to a few months old and was described as 'lights on but nobody home', althouth the latter was welsh A's no idea about their breeding and the 1st was a wb x connie filly covered by the wb.

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Who is the stallion who is by William Curtis and out of a mare by William Curtis? Aparantly they were 'fixing' the genes........
 
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I'm a huge fan of it and am expecting a very special foal next year inbred on two top perfoming ancestors.

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I am too, but I must admit to being a bigger fan of inbreeding to superior female lines than male!
 
Funnily enough I have already planned Casi's first breeding (she is only 3 months old so a bit of a wait) which will double up on the great mare Cornau. I have 2 stallions in mind, one which would be closer line breeding than the other.
 
LOL!! I've not heard of it done too much in the Sport Horse world, but in TB's it certainly is - esp. in the USA!

It's one of the reasons why the Saint Ballado/Northern Dancer was such a good nick - Northern Dancer was out of Natalma, who was out of Almahmoud. Saint B. was by Halo, who was out of Cosmah, out of Almahmoud. Inbreeding to Almahmoud has proven to be very successful - hence all the ND inbreeding.
 
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I'm a huge fan of it and am expecting a very special foal next year inbred on two top perfoming ancestors.

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I am too, but I must admit to being a bigger fan of inbreeding to superior female lines than male!

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Good point! We did one of those this year - Tobago on a mare with the same illustrious maternal grandmother as him; same tail-female line. The mare in question is Queens Topaz (Midnight Gold x Dancing Queen) - practically a legend in the Arab world - every single one of her many offspring has been a major show champion. Her sire was British National Champion both in-hand and under saddle, and her dam won the Princess Muna Saddle of Honour at the Nationals - the ultimate accolade for a broodmare.

If one is going to line-breed, this is the sort of mare to line-breed to! Queens Topaz died last year, so the breeding is kind of a little tribute to her.
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This is Queens Topaz:

QUEENSTOPAZ.jpg
 
This thread has reminded me of my first Welsh part bred, a little too much Bwlch (sp?) Valentino in the background on both sides - total firecracker but was a fabulous show pony who had presence bigger than her physical size
 
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father daugher matings? Is that no tooo close?

Of the two stallions I know that have both accidentally covered their daughers one was absolutely mental - totally unridable and a bit scary to handle and the other only lived to a few months old and was described as 'lights on but nobody home',

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Ah but that is the point of doing it. This would tell you that the temperament in that stallion used in these amplified matings - all be it accidental, was suspect and you would not be wanting to use him in inbreeding in the future of a more mild nature as in 3x4 if you are aminig for a performer that is not a nightmare to handle!

The TB Nasrullah is famous for inducing bad temperament on intense inbreeding. He himself was a live wire. An overly inbred female descendant of his won the distaff at the Breeders Cup in the early years. She was a absolute Bi*ch to handle and ate grooms for breakfast! But she ran fast!!!!!

It's fine if you have the numbrers of stock available to breed some "throw away" foals but a rather drastic way to see if it works or not, bit to clinical for me!

Line breeding (as in TB circles) is a less drastic route i.e. for instance a mare of mine is by Hotfoot, that good distance horse Celeric was by Mtoto out of a Hotfoot mare, the lines cross well so to cross my mare with Mtoto would be to line breed on that previous successful mating an not deliberate inbreeding. This goes on a lot and is very successful as certain families complement each other. But then in TBs you have access to hundreds of years of detailed mating and performance records to study, and since TB's start performing at 2 you see quick results, Not so for some more modern/performance breeds/types.
 
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This thread has reminded me of my first Welsh part bred, a little too much Bwlch (sp?) Valentino in the background on both sides - total firecracker but was a fabulous show pony who had presence bigger than her physical size

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further to that i just had a little dig into his background - which went all the way back to the Godolphin Arabian
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Finally saw a picture of Valentino too - my girl was sooo like him but a little shorter in the leg - from the welsh side I guess
 
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further to that i just had a little dig into his background - which went all the way back to the Godolphin Arabian

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If i can remember correctly, while digging through my mares tb side it came back to this stallion.
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Is this a good thing??
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They are all related one way or another
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I didn't realise my mad little Welshie had TB in her background and assumed the hot side came from a generous injection of Arab somewhere ( she looked like a chunky little Arab)
 
All TBs trace back to one (or more) of just 3 Arabian stallions, of which the Godolphin Arabian was one. (The other two were known as the Darley Arabian and the Byerley Turk.)

So there is nothing 'special' about this - but it is still a good thing! And a good thing to remember that the TB would not exist with the Arab! (Just thought I'd mention that. Again.)
 
Yup - that's right - 2x3. Not as close as some Arab inbreeding, but it should 'fix' some of the oustanding qualities of Padrons Psyche, who is a truly fabulous horse - the greatest living sire of Arab show horses in the world!

Here is Padrons Psyche, just so you can see what we're line-breeding to:

psyche.jpg
 
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All TBs trace back to one (or more) of just 3 Arabian stallions, of which the Godolphin Arabian was one. (The other two were known as the Darley Arabian and the Byerley Turk.)

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*scootels off the investigate*.......

Oh yeah
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I have put Teds (who is out of an Its the Business mare) over my other Its the Business mare!

I have been told I should put my Vechta (by Voltaire) semen in my Voltaire mare but I think that is breeding abit too close for comfort for me!
 
There are actually 4 foundation sires in the TB but cant remember the name of the 4th which is probably why hes always forgotten. Off to find my Tesio book to see as its annoying me now!
 
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There are actually 4 foundation sires in the TB but cant remember the name of the 4th which is probably why hes always forgotten. Off to find my Tesio book to see as its annoying me now!

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More than 4 tbtf. There were infact 36. Though it is always said to be only the 3.
 
Gosh - I didn't know that - I always learn something on here!
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Maybe it's just that those three are the most important of the foundation sires - the ones that ALL TBs trace back to - whereas the others had a less pervasive influence? Dunno.
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But I'm glad most of you approve of my line-breeding experiment. (Well, not 'mine' really - but one I wished for and have been granted!)

With another mare booked for next year, the foal will be triple-Padron, fairly close-up. This is Padron, the sire of Padrons Psyche:

PADRON.jpg


One of Tobago's mares this year has Padron as a grandsire, and another as great-grandsire, so we should at least get some idea of whether doubling-up on this line works with him.

In a couple of cases this year we've also doubled-up on Bey Shah:

bey_shah.jpg


He is one of the greatest and most prolific sires ever of show Arabs - there has been lots of line-breeding/in-breeding to him, but he does tend to pass on quite a 'hot' temperament, so I wouldn't want more than 2 doses of his blood in a pedigree.
 
I know, I was surprised when I found out too! If you're interested the 36 are (in chronological order) Taken from Horse Breeding Yesterday and Today - A Companion and a Conclusion, by Captain Alec S. Campbell, Witherby 1931

1. 1635 Lord Fairfax's Morocco Barb
2. 1660 Place's White Turk
3. 1665 Dodsworth's (Dam imported in-foal)
4. 1670 The Darcy Yellow Turk
5. 1675 The Darcy White Yurk or Sedbury Turk
6. 1680 The White-legged Lowther Barb
7. 1680 The Shaftesbury Turk
8. 1680 The Helmsley Turk
9. 1687 The Lister or Stradling Turk
10. 1689 The Byerly Turk
11. 1689 The Oglethorpe Arabian
12. 1690 Pullein's Ch. Arabian
13. 1690 The Leede's Arabian
14. 1690 Fenwick Barb
15. 1690 The Taffolet or Morocco Barb
16. 1695 The Marshall or Selaby Turk
17. 1700 Curwen's Bay Barb
18. 1704 Holderness Turk
19. 1706 Chillaby
20. 1706 Darley's Arabian
21. 1707 The St. Victor Barb
22. 1708 Honeywood's Arabian or William's Turk
23. 1708 The Akaster Turk
24. 1709 Alcock's Arabian
25. 1711 Bethel's Arabian
26. 1712 Strickland's Turk or Barb
27. 1713 Woodstock or William's Arabian
28. 1716 Bassett's Oxford or Blooy Shouldered Arab
29. 1717 Wynn Arabian
30. 1718 Hall Arabian
31. 1719 The Belgrade Turk
32. 1720 The Cyprus Arabian
33. 1723 Lonsdale Bay Arabian
34. 1723 Hutton's or Mulso Bay Turk
35. 1725 Bloody Buttocks
36. 1730 Godolphin Arabian
 
Sorry, I'm going to be the single voice in the wilderness here.

I don't like close line (in?) breeding. The phrase I've heard old breeders use is that it's linebreeding when it goes right & inbreeding when it goes wrong. The problem is that you are concentrating the genes you have, and making it more likely that things get passed on or show up. Which is great if you get the great things about your horse passed on. But not so great if you get the bad things passed on - sometimes these can include genetic problems which with only one set of genes wasn't an issue, but when you get two sets of genes the same passed on, you can get some real genetic issues.

Whatever the species, be it human, horse, dog, cat, I think inbreeding is a bad plan.
 
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