Clydesdale - Saving the great horse

[scrat]

Beautifully filmed and available on bbc iplayer https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000qt61
Enjoy

 

[deb_l222]

Thank you for this. I’d seen Collessie Feeds refer to it on their Facebook page but there was no mention of what channel it was on.

 

[Jeni the dragon]

It was a lovely programme, and what a cracking mare she brought over!

 

[ElleSkywalker]

V good just watched it. The aerial shots of the herd in Canada were amazing

 

[Caol Ila]

It didn't really address the elephant in the room, though. How can you preserve a breed when the market for that breed is tiny? Very few people use horses to pull heavy sh1t nowadays, which is what drafts excel at. The mechanization of transport and agriculture is a pretty insurmountable problem. All the heavy drafts are in similar boats -- Shires, Belgians, Percherons, Suffolk Punch, etc. Breeders ultimately need to be able to sell horses, after all, but the horse market has increasingly turned to pets and sporthorses. Drafts aren't ideal as either. A few enthusiasts will buy Shires and Clydes as happy hackers and low level competition horses, but most of us don't actually want an 18hh draft. I sure don't. Given the horses I see at my yard and others, no one else does, either.

I want to see those breeds preserved as much as anybody, but it's going to take a lot more than some breeders hanging out at the SECC in Glasgow and importing a few horses from the US. You need to be able to breed *enough* horses to increase the gene pool. Unless someone is subsizing the breeders, someone has to be keen to buy the horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

It didn't really address the elephant in the room, though. How can you preserve a breed when the market for that breed is tiny? Very few people use horses to pull heavy sh1t nowadays, which is what drafts excel at. The mechanization of transport and agriculture is a pretty insurmountable problem. All the heavy drafts are in similar boats -- Shires, Belgians, Percherons, Suffolk Punch, etc. Breeders ultimately need to be able to sell horses, after all, but the horse market has increasingly turned to pets and sporthorses. Drafts aren't ideal as either. A few enthusiasts will buy Shires and Clydes as happy hackers and low level competition horses, but most of us don't actually want an 18hh draft. I sure don't. Given the horses I see at my yard and others, no one else does, either.

I want to see those breeds preserved as much as anybody, but it's going to take a lot more than some breeders hanging out at the SECC in Glasgow and importing a few horses from the US. You need to be able to breed *enough* horses to increase the gene pool. Unless someone is subsizing the breeders, someone has to be keen to buy the horses.

I agree with this they are not ideal hacks and many have extremely poor hocks for a riding horse in fact once they became show pieces they bred cow hocks into them all about having a narrow horse for ploughing .
They are also often not the easiest horses I used to get lesson with someone who broke a lot of them for carriage work pulling drays and the like and he said they where often difficult and not to be completely trusted .
I adore some people adore them but to me they don’t scream riding horse.
Theres a reason the ID is the successful draught breed surviving the Irish started developing their dual purpose traits along time ago .

 

[ycbm]

The answer for ex racers was to create a market with ROR competitions. It made them worth buying for the competition and the competitions showcased that TBs are often great horses for amateurs.

If there was a heavy driving championships with significant prize money and cudos, then maybe it would create a bigger market and encourage the right type of horse to be bred in bigger numbers?

 

[Caol Ila]

I agree with this they are not ideal hacks and many have extremely poor hocks for a riding horse in fact once they became show pieces they bred cow hocks into them all about having a narrow horse for ploughing .
They are also often not the easiest horses I used to get lesson with someone who broke a lot of them for carriage work pulling drays and the like and he said they where often difficult and not to be completely trusted .
I adore some people adore them but to me they don’t scream riding horse.
Theres a reason the ID is the successful draught breed surviving the Irish started developing their dual purpose traits along time ago .

Yeah, I very much noticed the odd conformation behind. When they showed horses who were meant to be the best of the breed, I commented to OH, "I don't like the hind end. At all. It's cow hocked tae f&*ck and it's way too long from hock to fetlock. Would not touch with bargepole." Non-horsey OH now knows a lot more about conformation than he did before we watched the documentary, LOL.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

As much as I love a good Clyde they aren't designed to be ridden. They are also not weight carriers due to their hocks and back ends being deliberately bred to be as close as possible behind. They are front heavy in that respect because they use the shoulders and chest to pull.

I am another who wouldn't have one purely because they are not athletic enough for my liking.

I have ridden a few and one was so beautifully well schooled you would never know you were sitting on a Clyde and not a show hack, she went on to be 3rd at HOYS. But others have been so on the forehand they were almost unridable.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The answer for ex racers was to create a market with ROR competitions. It made them worth buying for the competition and the competitions showcased that TBs are often great horses for amateurs.

If there was a heavy driving championships with significant prize money and cudos, then maybe it would create a bigger market and encourage the right type of horse to be bred in bigger numbers?

Yes the RoR created a want for racehorses but people still want them for nothing and I do not agree with that. Yes some have no real value but people expecting to be given a 3/4yo that has only ran once or twice are off their rockers. These horses have seen far more of life than the equivalent age warmblood and they haven't been strapped down in gadgets.

 

[Caol Ila]

The difference between Clydes and TBs is that a good TB is a very useful animal to a lot of horse people. A horse that's bred to pull and not be ridden, not so much.

Aye, as YCBM says, if one could create a larger, more visible driving scene, you might create more interest in those horses. The US has kind of done this. There's weight-pulling competitions at most of the stock shows, along with opportunities to exhibit and show large hitches. They're nowhere near as popular as ridden horse stuff, but they are more common there than here. Might explain why the American Clydes are in slightly better shape, as a breed, than UK ones.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s difficult to beat the feeling of riding a good TB.

 

[Caol Ila]

US Clydes also have some heavyweight sponsorship. Anheuser-Busch, who own Budweiser Beer, have put tons of money into the breed because they have that eight-horse hitch they use for PR. I mean, they make sh1tty beer, but they've been enthusiastic, visible proponents of the Clydesdale.

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

The dancing Clydesdale circa 2000 , when virtually no one rode heavy horses ! We had just qualified for the Derby House dressage championships at Elementary and it made big news - although the magazine article wasn't terribly flattering if you read the opening lines ! We featured in a number of other magazines too at the time , including Horse and Hound "Does Size Matter ? " - they all seemed to think it was a bit of a joke . He came 4th at the championships so Hahaha He did XC too .They make fab horses .
NB He was 17.3hh when I bought him as a 4y for my OH . He measured 18.1hh at 5 - and then I stopped measuring him after that ! ( but he definitely grew some more ! )

 

[Wishfilly]

The difference between Clydes and TBs is that a good TB is a very useful animal to a lot of horse people. A horse that's bred to pull and not be ridden, not so much.

Aye, as YCBM says, if one could create a larger, more visible driving scene, you might create more interest in those horses. The US has kind of done this. There's weight-pulling competitions at most of the stock shows, along with opportunities to exhibit and show large hitches. They're nowhere near as popular as ridden horse stuff, but they are more common there than here. Might explain why the American Clydes are in slightly better shape, as a breed, than UK ones.

I agree this might be the answer- to save the Clydesdale, and even more, breeds like the Suffolk Punch, which are in a very poor state, there needs to be a market for them. And that market is probably never going to be as a riding horse on a large scale for all sorts of reasons.

But creating enthusiasm through a different type of competition would probably help the breed, and it would be great to show off our agricultural heritage in this way, too.

You would need someone to organise it, and put some prize money in to make it worthwhile, but creating a viable market is likely to be the only thing that will save these breeds and preserve them in the long term.

At least with the Clydesdales, there is the option to import new blood from America- with some breeds, like the Suffolk Punch, the gene pool is tiny and there's no external source to help restore genetic diversity.

 

[Cloball]

Were they always so tall though? I though traditionally they were smaller about 15.2-16hh. Would there be more of a market for a 16h draught with better hocks and temperament? Breeds are often improved, maybe they could be improved in an amateur riding direction? Or dual purpose like the ID. I see little point in continuing down a path that is neither fit for purpose nor ideal for longevity and soundness.


I love a good Clydie but they can be sharp and sensitive and the more modern tall leggy types are not weight carriers at all and often not good doers.

 

[Goldenstar]

The difference between Clydes and TBs is that a good TB is a very useful animal to a lot of horse people. A horse that's bred to pull and not be ridden, not so much.

Aye, as YCBM says, if one could create a larger, more visible driving scene, you might create more interest in those horses. The US has kind of done this. There's weight-pulling competitions at most of the stock shows, along with opportunities to exhibit and show large hitches. They're nowhere near as popular as ridden horse stuff, but they are more common there than here. Might explain why the American Clydes are in slightly better shape, as a breed, than UK ones.

Just think how much money it would cost for suitable transport for a couple of Clydesdales and a large carriage and all the harness you would need three people .
And what can you do with a Clydesdales driving that’s can’t be done easier with smaller dual purpose horses the answer is pulling a dray and there’s limited fun in that .
Transport is a considerable issue for developing driving as a sport .
If I could drive a anything I would drive small Oldenburgs and ride them as well or perhaps a pair of matching Knapstuppers .

 

[Wishfilly]

Were they always so tall though? I though traditionally they were smaller about 15.2-16hh. Would there be more of a market for a 16h draught with better hocks and temperament? Breeds are often improved, maybe they could be improved in an amateur riding direction? Or dual purpose like the ID. I see little point in continuing down a path that is neither fit for purpose nor ideal for longevity and soundness.


I love a good Clydie but they can be sharp and sensitive and the more modern tall leggy types are not weight carriers at all and often not good doers.

I mean, there would definitely be a market for a 16hh weight carrier which was safe enough for an average leisure rider to enjoy. But I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the Clydesdale there, and if it would still be recognisable as the same breed to enthusiasts?

 

[thefarsideofthefield]

what happens when you work out how to upload photos....

 

[Cragrat]

I had a 15/16th TB, 1/16th Clydesdale mare, bred in Aberdeenshire. She was a cracking horse - hunting/pony club/eventing etc. I bred her to a TB, and got another fantastic mare, which I bred back to a TB again. I now have a very nice almost TB ( 1/64th Clydesdale?) with a coat like a yak in the winter, and hocks straighter than either of maternal parents, or his dad But he's still a very useful sort, who moves like a dream and jumps really well.

I would have another part bred Clydesdale a heart beat!

 

[Cragrat]

what happens when you work out how to upload photos....

Cracking horse!

 

[jsprince]

The problem you may find with all these ideas, are that the people who actually breed and show them them don’t want drastic change.
The Suffolk punch society have for years resisted bring DNA proven American Suffolk punch lines back into English horses. They like the tag “ rarer than a Giant Panda”.

The same in different ways can be said of a lot of the breed society’‘s I think and I may be biased but the only progressive ones are the Percheron society but that is because they can rely on a very big gene pool both in France and the USA.

Also there is a active but small heavy horse driving trial club but most of the members have either Percheron, Comtois and shires.
There are also lots of different Activities that heavy horses take part in Ploughing competitions, in hand showing, driving competitions and ridden competitions.

The problem is to take part in any of these activities you need money, depending on the breed some can live just off grass and hay but you need the outside space for them, you put a Ton horse in a small paddock and you will have a mud pit, big horses are also expensive to shoe, they need big transport if you have more than one and they need to not be thought of as Gentle Giants as you will then have a out of control monster on your hands.

 

[Cloball]

I mean, there would definitely be a market for a 16hh weight carrier which was safe enough for an average leisure rider to enjoy. But I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the Clydesdale there, and if it would still be recognisable as the same breed to enthusiasts?

Oh you're right and I doubt anything will happen but it does seem a bit of a shame.

I know these aren't representative or a large sample but these guys look to be able 160cm (if you go by the average man's height in 1920 being about 171cm). They look far more compact with a shorter back.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I had a 15/16th TB, 1/16th Clydesdale mare, bred in Aberdeenshire. She was a cracking horse - hunting/pony club/eventing etc. I bred her to a TB, and got another fantastic mare, which I bred back to a TB again. I now have a very nice almost TB ( 1/64th Clydesdale?) with a coat like a yak in the winter, and hocks straighter than either of maternal parents, or his dad But he's still a very useful sort, who moves like a dream and jumps really well.

I would have another part bred Clydesdale a heart beat!

You could race your horse under the rules of British racing with that amount of TB in!

 

[Rowreach]

Just think how much money it would cost for suitable transport for a couple of Clydesdales and a large carriage and all the harness you would need three people .
And what can you do with a Clydesdales driving that’s can’t be done easier with smaller dual purpose horses the answer is pulling a dray and there’s limited fun in that .
Transport is a considerable issue for developing driving as a sport .
If I could drive a anything I would drive small Oldenburgs and ride them as well or perhaps a pair of matching Knapstuppers .

You've also got to find someone prepared to look after their feet too, and have very deep pockets out of which to pay them.

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

I have a Suffolk and I've been lucky enough to ride a Shire and a Clydesdale.

My Suffolk is an amazing happy hacker. He is calm dependable and polite, very easy to look after and I don't need to rug or worry about complex feeding regimes.

The shire was like my Suffolk but a bit lighter and thinner. She was a polite, well schooled horse who could do anything.

The Clydesdale was something else. He was so light on his feet, endless power and control. He would collect with the lightest feel. As responsive as the best dressage horse I've ever ridden.

The best of all 3 is thay they are so big, they've been bred for intelligence and temperament to make them safe and easy to live with.

I'm interested to see how the current projects to cross breed Suffolks to create good traditional 'heavy types' goes. I know dressage and other WB mares have been put to Jensen. The idea being, to create a market for a good cross you also have to propagate the pure lines for future crosses.

 

[millikins]

There's the Suffolk stallion at Thorpeley Stud who they are putting to a variety of mares to try and produce a horse with more appeal to general riders. But agree with others, the sheer expense of keeping a heavy horse, shoes, land, transport, tack etc that puts them out of reach of many would be supporters.

 

[millikins]

Cross posted with O&L

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I have a Suffolk and I've been lucky enough to ride a Shire and a Clydesdale.

My Suffolk is an amazing happy hacker. He is calm dependable and polite, very easy to look after and I don't need to rug or worry about complex feeding regimes.

The shire was like my Suffolk but a bit lighter and thinner. She was a polite, well schooled horse who could do anything.

The Clydesdale was something else. He was so light on his feet, endless power and control. He would collect with the lightest feel. As responsive as the best dressage horse I've ever ridden.

The best of all 3 is thay they are so big, they've been bred for intelligence and temperament to make them safe and easy to live with.

I'm interested to see how the current projects to cross breed Suffolks to create good traditional 'heavy types' goes. I know dressage and other WB mares have been put to Jensen. The idea being, to create a market for a good cross you also have to propagate the pure lines for future crosses.

There was a very good show cob that was a percheron mare x tb stallion.

Was there also not a very good eventer that was a heavy breed cross?

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

But agree with others, the sheer expense of keeping a heavy horse, shoes, land, transport, tack etc that puts them out of reach of many would be supporters.

Think how much I save simply because I can't buy stuff in tack shops on a whim (nothing fits him).

Everything else is pretty much the same price. The only thing that costs more is medication and wormers.