Co-Ownership of horse-any experiences when it's gone sour?

Andiamo

Andiamo

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Co-Ownership of horse-any experiences when it's gone sour?

Has anyone any experience of this situation? It would be great if you could share experiences, and provide some helpful advice, it would be extremely appreciated.

Background of the situation:
A competition horse was purchased by two friends, each paid 50% of the cost. One party is a pro rider, and has trained the horse up to a very high level. This rider has paid all costs for the horse for 5 years - provided all the training, and paid stabling costs, and competition costs for all this time. The other party paid the 50% of the original price, and has paid for farriery, and nothing else. This person has never ridden the horse, or had anything to do with it.

Now this person is being a pain.

The pro rider wants to buy the horse completely and move it elsewhere due to some significant life events, and give the 50% to the other party. At first the other one, (let's call this person Jo) said, yes no problem. Just give her the 50% and it's a done deal. Then Jo changed her mind, and said no, you can't have the horse, you must sell it.
Every day Jo has become more and more sour. The rider does not want to sell the horse...as he has trained it for 5 years, and has put blood, sweat and tears into the horse, and he has a very strong emotional connection to the horse. He doesn't want anyone else riding the horse, when is the one who's done all the work and got it to its current level. There was no co-ownership contract put in place when they bought the horse together - they were close friends and trusted each other.

The Pro rider is extremely upset about it all, he has the money to pay her off for her share, but now she won't accept it, and refuses to let the horse move. But the horse HAS to move. So, it's a major problem.

Please, can anyone help with this? feel free to ask additional questions to get a full picture if you need to.

Lindt chocolate santas and bunnies for you all.
 
Were they in a relationship together, what is the reason she wont let him just buy it? Is he buying it back at market value? Is the horse worth any money, has it done well? Will he have to interact with Jo once the horse has sold ever again?
 
Assuming it is the pro you are trying to help, they need to find a 3rd party to "buy" the horse for them without the other person knowing then hand the horse back to the pro, this was done years ago in a similar situation by a top event rider who was not allowed to buy one of his rides by the owner, a 3rd party did the deal on the quiet, but it really will mean the end of any friendship and you need to trust the 3rd party implicitly.

It often happens in the racing world, horses get sent to the sales to end partnerships and set a fair market price but in this case the horse is not really owned 50-50 as the pro has put in more.
 
@dieseldog - thanks for your response. They were not in a relationship together, they were just friends. She is not giving a reason for not letting him buy it back, surely there is a reason, but she hasn't come out with it yet. My gut feeling is that she wants more money. Yes, the horse would be worth more than the original value, because it is competing at a high level now, it was a barely backed 4 year old when it was purchased. But the rider is the one who has done all the work for 5 years to get it to it's current level. The other person has done nothing, contributed nothing, rarely seen the horse, wasn't interested. No, he wouldn't ever need to see Jo again or interact with her.
 
@be positive - yes, it's the pro I am trying to help. This is a brilliant idea, thank you!! He's not worried about the friendship, Jo has been really horrible over this situation, it's destroyed any friendship that was previously there. She cannot be trusted at all.
 
be positive said:
Assuming it is the pro you are trying to help, they need to find a 3rd party to "buy" the horse for them without the other person knowing then hand the horse back to the pro, this was done years ago in a similar situation by a top event rider who was not allowed to buy one of his rides by the owner, a 3rd party did the deal on the quiet, but it really will mean the end of any friendship and you need to trust the 3rd party implicitly.
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That's what I was going to suggest too. Guess it depends on if the pro was planning to pay Jo what she paid to buy the horse initially or if he was happy to give her market value of the horse now.

I assume Jo will want to sell the horse at current market value?
 
Maybe brazen it out, advertise the horse, start charging her 50% of full livery and she how long she lasts if she has to start contributing. As there was no agreement in place there probably isn't much he can do. I had a horse on loan once and we agreed at the start how much she would cost to buy if we decided to in the future.

On the positive if the horse does sell for decent money, the pro will get some cash and as the horse has done well it has given him more than money as it has help set up his reputation. As he is a pro he can take the money and invest it in another horse - and this time own it 100%.

Sounds horrid situation to be in, and this type of petty behaviour is normally fuelled by love (unrequited or actual) or money!
 
@3Beasties - During their first conversation, the Pro explained to Jo that due to some major life changes, he would like to move the horse, and therefore would like to buy her out of her share. She was OK at this point, it was about a week ago, she said, OK, she wants to have the money she originally contributed. So, the Pro organised for the money this week, and rang her to say he has it and would like to give it to her. She got very aggressive, and said she changed her mind, and said the horse cannot leave.
Market value -it only has this market value because of what the Pro has done with the horse over the past 5 years. The other person has had nothing to do with it, and has never paid livery costs or anything....
 
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I do feel for the pro having put in all the work although I can also understand why the other partner would like today's market value. Presumably, they both agreed who paid what at the time (5 years ago) and who did what with the horse so that's not the issue?

Tricky situation particularly if they were friends and it's all gone sour :(
 
@dieseldog - yes, you're right about 50% of the livery. My suggestion was to calculate the cost of the monthly livery / annual vets fees/ regular osteopathic treatments / physios/ 2 competitions per month / saddles and tack, rugs, numnahs, boots, bandages etc and 6x/week professional training at his normal rate - and send her a bill for 50% of the total cost for the past 5 years.... she'd have a meltdown.

For the Pro, it is not about the money. It would break his heart to sell the horse. He doesn't want the cash, he doesn't want another horse.

Yes, you are right, I'm just waiting for Jo to come forward with her real reasons for being a miserable cow - I am certain that it is all about money.
 
Someone has probably told her it is a valuable horse now so greed has taken over it often happens, the pro needs to get a valuation then take off some for his input, that should bring it down to a sensible level to allow you to buy it, or someone else acting on his behalf. It may fail the vet and be worth very little that would be a shock for Jo.
 
Andiamo said:
@3Beasties - During their first conversation, the Pro explained to Jo that due to some major life changes, he would like to move the horse, and therefore would like to buy her out of her share. She was OK at this point, it was about a week ago, she said, OK, she wants to have the money she originally contributed. So, the Pro organised for the money this week, and rang her to say he has it and would like to give it to her. She got very aggressive, and said she changed her mind, and said the horse cannot leave.
Market value -it only has this market value because of what the Pro has done with the horse over the past 5 years. The other person has had nothing to do with it, and has never paid livery costs or anything....
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Hmm - whilst I do agree in a moral sense, I think Jo would legally be entitled to half the market value of the horse, unless any contract was signed to say otherwise. Yes the pro has done all the work, but was presumably happy to do so.

If they do go down the route of a 3rd party buying the horse, then I am guessing it would need to be for full market value anyway. So is it worth the pro offering this to to Jo in the first place?
 
The easiest way is to offer Jo more money, not the full market value as she hasn't done anything to help increase horses value, however people can be funny. Maybe she is thinking she deserves more money because without her initial capita pro wouldn't have a decent horse to produce at all.

If the purchase offer increases and she still refuses them you really have a problem as it would then se to be a refusal based not on money but some personal issue.
 
Andiamo said:
@dieseldog - yes, you're right about 50% of the livery. My suggestion was to calculate the cost of the monthly livery / annual vets fees/ regular osteopathic treatments / physios/ 2 competitions per month / saddles and tack, rugs, numnahs, boots, bandages etc and 6x/week professional training at his normal rate - and send her a bill for 50% of the total cost for the past 5 years.... she'd have a meltdown.

For the Pro, it is not about the money. It would break his heart to sell the horse. He doesn't want the cash, he doesn't want another horse.

Yes, you are right, I'm just waiting for Jo to come forward with her real reasons for being a miserable cow - I am certain that it is all about money.
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That is all very well but there is no record of that being the original deal, is there? You can't bill people later for services you have voluntarily rendered up to that point.

I know you feel this is an emotional issue and people *should* be behaving this or that way, but in the end it's business. The co owner doesn't have to give anyone reasons for her actions. She owns half the horse and no provisions were put in place to provide for the possible dissolution of the partnership so really, she can be as easy or difficult as she wants to be. Perhaps the "nice" option would be to let the horse go for a small payment but she is under no legal obligation to do that.

Deals like this do, unfortunately, often go wrong and sometimes end up in court. Sometimes, after some drama, it all works out - La Biosthetique Sam, for instance - other situations result in two unhappy parties and a wasted horse. There was one awful one in the US that dragged on so long the horse was retired and the profesisonal's business reputation irreparably harmed by the end of it.

I do understand the pro's upset and disappointment - and yours on his behalf - but to some extent it goes with the game. If you are going to ride horses owned by other people, you are going to cede at least some control to those people. I know you think this is wrong and hard hearted of me to say but it would hardly be the first time a horse has been removed from a pro who is deeply attached and invested. I know the pro doesn't WANT to see anyone else on the horse but the same could be said for all sorts of riders! How do you think someone who has nurtured a horse from backing to 2* feels when a "big name" gets the ride - and all the credit - at 3/4*?

I think a practical approach is probably the best way forward. The two parties involved have to sit down, possibly with a mediator (but not a coterie of friends and supporters) and discuss the way forward. The pro IS going to move. End of. So what happens to the horse? Will the co owner buy him out for market value? Does she want the horse sold and they split the proceeds? Does she already have another rider (or agent) in mind? That goes back to the buying out. If she is going to send the horse to someone else then she HAS to buy the pro out. If she wants to offer the horse for sale then they have to agree on market value - worth getting an assessment in a situation like this - start the process and see what happens. The horse may very well fail to vet and then the pro can offer a nominal sum to take it off her hands! In fact, it might be worth it, if that seems to be on the horizon, to vet the horse privately first and see if there are any ticking time bombs.

Sorry, I do know that is not what you want to hear. I agree the co owner is being petty BUT we simply don't know her side. The two of them have to sit down and discuss what is REALLY going on and how to resolve it.

And, btw, if it does proceed and there is even the hint that there might be legal action, make this thread go away.:)
 
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@Tarrsteps - thanks for this, and it's good to see a different perspective, and the examples that you provided where it's happened before.

To put a little extra light on this, Jo wanted to speak to him today, and she said she agrees to the 50% payment (she is the one who said she wanted to sell him her share and to have her original investment back - last week in their first conversation).
This afternoon, she said she would like to have a deposit immediately, to ensure he is serious and to seal the deal, with the view that the rest of the money would be received by her within a couple of weeks. He said, yes, no problem, but if I pay this deposit, I would like a receipt, and a contract that you agree to sell the horse. She went mental, got aggressive and refused to provide a receipt and refused to make a contract with him. Then changed her mind again about selling him.

So, in this scenario, if the pro pays a deposit, then Jo would get the money, and then could change her mind again, and he would have nothing, and would have lost his money.
She's definitely playing at something, and sounds to be mentally unstable. She is very unpredictable.
 
All I can add to TS is the possibility that that the part owner may suspect they may be being conned ! As once the pro has bought her out the horse could be sold for a hugely inflated price. Nobody seems to be looking at her side!! I would add the pro rider has rather got themselves into this fix themselves and not shown a very professional attitude to business . Why did they have no agreement from the start?
They both need as suggested an intermediary to get involved to help as they may soon find out there is nothing left in the horse if the law gets involved.This sort of deal wrecks more friendships than any other thing.
Are you sure you know the full story as there appears to be an extreme lack of trust from both parties.
 
Andiamo said:
So, in this scenario, if the pro pays a deposit, then Jo would get the money, and then could change her mind again, and he would have nothing, and would have lost his money.
She's definitely playing at something, and sounds to be mentally unstable. She is very unpredictable.
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No offence meant, but this sort of thing won't help. I would say don't even think it. You want to do business with this woman, remember, and insulting her is probably not the way to go. Keep in mind your goal, which is to get the horse, not to stir things up even further and upset the co owner to the point where she won't proceed with any kind of deal on principle. Don't be too sure no one who knows her will find it, either - the horse world is a very small, interconnected place sometimes!

Popdosh makes a very good point. It wouldn't be the first time a trainer offered to "take a horse off the owner's hands" or appealed to their sense of fair play and then turned around and made a killing. Not to mention pros who get the horse and then bad mouth the ex-owner. Actually, bad mouthing owners isn't the way to go, generally. See above. ;)

I know "you" are not the pro in this but it doesn't take much to put the pieces together. You would be surprised what sticks around on the internet!

(And if that sounds like I'm taking you to task, I am. Does the pro involved know you are discussing this on an open forum? This is BUSINESS, this is people's livelihood and reputation, not a playground spat.)
 
What was the original idea when they bought the horse? There must have been some plan, a person doesn't just buy half a horse in order to pay its farrier bills and let the other party do whatever they want with the horse for the rest of the horse's life, what were they going to do with the horse?
 
It does not take a lot of research nowadays to find out who is involved,and this may be complicated by the horse moving here from Germany??? maybe!
The co owner may have very legitimate reasons not to let the horse go.
 
be positive said:
Someone has probably told her it is a valuable horse now so greed has taken over it often happens,
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How is that greed ,I can guarantee 95% on this forum would do the same. I suspect the pro could not afford the horse in the first place and as happens in these cases there is a trade off! Obviously they were happy up until now with Jo's input otherwise this would have come to a head ages ago
 
Sounds like they have got greedy. I would work out the value of the horse, then how much the horse has cost for past five years, give Jo the bill minus her contribution to shoes, so I assume that alone will be substantial, I would then also bill her for riding / schooling costs, if they want to play dirty just be as dirty back.

I think you will find that might out weight the current value of the horse jo is expecting and actually hopefully leave her owing the pro rider
 
Tiffany said:
I do feel for the pro having put in all the work although I can also understand why the other partner would like today's market value. Presumably, they both agreed who paid what at the time (5 years ago) and who did what with the horse so that's not the issue?
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This. Both parties need to agree on what the market price is - and then if the other party still won't allow the pro to buy it - do as dieseldog suggests and get a 3rd party to purchase on behalf of the pro.
 
Andiamo said:
@Tarrsteps - thanks for this, and it's good to see a different perspective, and the examples that you provided where it's happened before.

To put a little extra light on this, Jo wanted to speak to him today, and she said she agrees to the 50% payment (she is the one who said she wanted to sell him her share and to have her original investment back - last week in their first conversation).
This afternoon, she said she would like to have a deposit immediately, to ensure he is serious and to seal the deal, with the view that the rest of the money would be received by her within a couple of weeks. He said, yes, no problem, but if I pay this deposit, I would like a receipt, and a contract that you agree to sell the horse. She went mental, got aggressive and refused to provide a receipt and refused to make a contract with him. Then changed her mind again about selling him.

So, in this scenario, if the pro pays a deposit, then Jo would get the money, and then could change her mind again, and he would have nothing, and would have lost his money.
She's definitely playing at something, and sounds to be mentally unstable. She is very unpredictable.
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Ah, in that case - all the pro needs to do is hand all of the money over. Hang the deposit.
 
Daytona said:
Sounds like they have got greedy. I would work out the value of the horse, then how much the horse has cost for past five years, give Jo the bill minus her contribution to shoes, so I assume that alone will be substantial, I would then also bill her for riding / schooling costs, if they want to play dirty just be as dirty back.

I think you will find that might out weight the current value of the horse jo is expecting and actually hopefully leave her owing the pro rider
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Seriously? So if you contracted to have work done on your house and agreed on a price, you would be okay with the contractor turning up at the end and handing you a bill for work you had never agreed to pay for? That's not exactly good business practice!
 
TarrSteps said:
Quite. She was willing to sell, why did he not say 'SOLD' at that moment and transfer the full amount?
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This ^^ after the first lot of bother I'd have had the money waiting there and then to fling at her, say 'thanks' and run!! ****** deposits etc, if Pro wanted the horse so bad he needed to act quickly, especially if she is unpredictable.
 
I fear the law will view the horse as an asset .
The Pro can't now decide to charge for services he provided free at he beginning of the arrangement the coowner had been paying the farrier and will have proof of this .
In law she is IMO entitled to half the market value of the horse.
The pro needs to do a reasonable deal for the horse ASAP but honestly I see no reason why the co owner should get non of the increase in value of the asset .
 
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