Coach- rider relationship

[Moodymare88]

Hi All,

I started working with a coach who also offered mindset coaching as well in August 2021. I had regular lessons with her, xc lessons, SJ lessons etc up until April really.

My mare has been quite tricky and due to a nasty accident a few years ago, which left me dealing with PTSD and mental health problems, i took a step back from competing her and my coach did this for me, which was great. We actually became quite good friends, but i feel the lines were blurred. In January we did a 10 week programme, where i took a step back from riding, just having one lesson a week and my coach doing the majority of the riding and competitions which was really hard for me because there was a lack of communication from both of us, but i was so used to having the control of my horse, i was always told 'no' when i wanted to do something such as a dressage test riding clinic or some low level clear round SJ. I do think my coach was protecting me and had good intentions, but i think by telling me i couldn't do anything and then seeing her pushing her other clients who aren't as experienced to go out to the same competitions where she was riding my mare made me doubt my own ability.

She then suggested i do a hunter trial (something which i had put to bed and had gotten used to the idea of not doing it until May). She couldn't come, but we went and even though we had a fair few stops...we got around and we both became more confident and it was better than last year, so i was pleased. The following week, we did a hunter trial at the same venue and she came to 'support' me but took a huge step back and there was no communication, it really affected my mindset when she disappeared to go and watch another client and didn't say anything to me after her round in the 80 on my mare (i could tell by her face she had a terrible round).

Anyway, i then made the decision that this was no longer working for me. It was a really hard decision that i didn't want to make but there were several circumstances that also led up to this. I have since had lessons with a different coach and done 2 ODE (60 & 70) and actually completed them for the first time (it has taken me 2 1/2 years of trying with my mare) and last weekend we got our best every dressage score and went clear XC. I had a message from my previous coach/friend asking if i was going to stick with this person and i made the decision that for the timebeing I am, but she ignored me and was basically quite upset. I am in 2 minds...at the end of the day i want to do what is best for me and my horse, but i did enjoy my lessons with my previous coach but i think we became too close?

Has that ever happened to anyone and how did you deal with it? I just feel so guilty and quite hurt by some of the things which were said.

Do i continue with this instructor for now and maybe go back to the other when things have calmed down a bit and we have cleared the air? I like to please people and i don't like to hurt anyone, but after nearly giving up horses a few months ago, i have just started to enjoy it again and feel like i can actually ride and have a good partnership with my horse!

 

[Red-1]

I think the first one has been unprofessional and I would now keep with the second one. The communication has been lacking, there was not the support you wanted. I wonder if they got a bot complacent? The new one is working better for you.

If the first one was rude at all, I would simply not message again. I would be polite if we met, but other than that, I would get on with enjoying my horse.

Well done with the events BTW!

 

[Pinkvboots]

It actually sounds like she was enjoying your horse a bit too much so was kind of putting you off from doing things yourself as it suited, I don't think any instructor should be saying 'no' to a client it's your horse your choice yes thay can give advice but that's it.

I seriously wouldn't bother with someone who has now got the huff because you have put your foot down and taken back control of things and they don't like it.

sounds like your doing well with the new person so just carry on and don't worry about you have done nothing wrong.

 

[SilverLinings]

I am sorry to say this @Moodymare88 as you obviously found your trainer helpful at the beginning, but it sounds like it developed into quite an abusive (of power/control) relationship. Reading what you have written it sounds as though the trainer didn't want you to compete as she wanted to continue competing your horse herself. It is very odd for a trainer to 'tell' a client they can't compete on their horse, and very unprofessional (if she was there in a professional capacity) that she supported other clients at events but ignored you. It is also unprofessional that she is now sulking and not communicating with you like an adult.

I would suggest that you continue with your new instructor and do not return to the original one. There are many other coaches out there who can help with the psychological support as well as riding, and who will supportively encourage you to compete if you wish without trying to monopolise your horse for themselves.

If you are worried that you will see her when out and about then if she contacts you again then you could thank her for all her support but say you just wanted to try someone different to see if you could benefit from different techniques.

Well done on the competing after having a bad accident, it sounds like you and your horse are doing really well

 

[Moodymare88]

I think the first one has been unprofessional and I would now keep with the second one. The communication has been lacking, there was not the support you wanted. I wonder if they got a bot complacent? The new one is working better for you.

If the first one was rude at all, I would simply not message again. I would be polite if we met, but other than that, I would get on with enjoying my horse.

Well done with the events BTW!

Definitely. So many people have said how well i am doing since the change but i was also her biggest client, and to send me that message after having such a fab day at an event was not really on in my opinion. It felt like because i was her biggest client and the only one competing, but she also competed on my horse that she wanted me to go back to her to show how good she is if that makes sense? I didn't appreciate the voice note at 2:00am on Monday morning either to be honest.

 

[Moodymare88]

I am sorry to say this @Moodymare88 as you obviously found your trainer helpful at the beginning, but it sounds like it developed into quite an abusive (of power/control) relationship. Reading what you have written it sounds as though the trainer didn't want you to compete as she wanted to continue competing your horse herself. It is very odd for a trainer to 'tell' a client they can't compete on their horse, and very unprofessional (if she was there in a professional capacity) that she supported other clients at events but ignored you. It is also unprofessional that she is now sulking and not communicating with you like an adult.

I would suggest that you continue with your new instructor and do not return to the original one. There are many other coaches out there who can help with the psychological support as well as riding, and who will supportively encourage you to compete if you wish without trying to monopolise your horse for themselves.

If you are worried that you will see her when out and about then if she contacts you again then you could thank her for all her support but say you just wanted to try someone different to see if you could benefit from different techniques.

Well done on the competing after having a bad accident, it sounds like you and your horse are doing really well

That is actually a good view point, i hadn't thought of it like that to be honest. I guess when you are in the situation, it is hard to see what is going on and i was severely depressed over the winter because i was working through so much previous trauma and i don't like change! I was so chuffed with my horse and myself on Sunday, she didn't switch off in the dressage to get 28% which is a personal best for me and stormed round the xc without looking (just 2 stops SJ but that was my fault and our worst phase) so something is working! When you consistently get told you can't do something, it does really bring you down.

 

[SilverLinings]

That is actually a good view point, i hadn't thought of it like that to be honest. I guess when you are in the situation, it is hard to see what is going on and i was severely depressed over the winter because i was working through so much previous trauma and i don't like change! I was so chuffed with my horse and myself on Sunday, she didn't switch off in the dressage to get 28% which is a personal best for me and stormed round the xc without looking (just 2 stops SJ but that was my fault and our worst phase) so something is working! When you consistently get told you can't do something, it does really bring you down.

A GOOD trainer shouldn't tell you you can't do something, they should help you to work towards it and to be successful. If they have concerns about your safety because you are trying to progress too soon then they should discuss it with you, not just say no.

I hope that your new trainer is more professional and trains in a way that works for you so that you are able to achieve the goals you want.

 

[Moodymare88]

A GOOD trainer shouldn't tell you you can't do something, they should help you to work towards it and to be successful. If they have concerns about your safety because you are trying to progress too soon then they should discuss it with you, not just say no.

I hope that your new trainer is more professional and trains in a way that works for you so that you are able to achieve the goals you want.

Thank you. That did frustrate me quite a lot. I even tried to explain what the problems were but unfortunately she can’t seem to see she has done anything wrong! I tried to arrange to meet up in person to clear the air and be friends (as that is what she said she wanted) but just get ignored so I think I’ve made the right decision. We spend so much time and money to have our horses, it isn’t any good for me having a lesson where I shut down because of the poor relationship with my trainer.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Thank you. That did frustrate me quite a lot. I even tried to explain what the problems were but unfortunately she can’t seem to see she has done anything wrong! I tried to arrange to meet up in person to clear the air and be friends (as that is what she said she wanted) but just get ignored so I think I’ve made the right decision. We spend so much time and money to have our horses, it isn’t any good for me having a lesson where I shut down because of the poor relationship with my trainer.

Sounds like spoilt brat behaviour let her just get on with it I wouldn't waste my time, your enjoying your horse nowt wrong in that

 

[Moodymare88]

Sounds like spoilt brat behaviour let her just get on with it I wouldn't waste my time, your enjoying your horse nowt wrong in that

She’s also removed me from social media as well but then wants to be friends?! I don’t need someone like that in my life to be honest…life is far too short!

 

[Pinkvboots]

She’s also removed me from social media as well but then wants to be friends?! I don’t need someone like that in my life to be honest…life is far too short!

Your right life is too short I can't be bothered with people like that either.

 

[oldie48]

I had lessons twice a week with someone for five years, He became a friend, came for a meal once a month and my horse went to him if I went away for a holiday. I put a lot of £ in his pocket but eventually just grew out of his approach and recognised he wasn't challenging me in lessons and he'd become lazy in his teaching. I found it very difficult to break free, was very mindful of his feelings and even said I'd still come once a month for his help. However, he was just horrible so I just went my own way with a new trainer and I never ever regretted it. I made huge progress very quickly and went from dependency as a rider to a more questioning rider. Just move on and stop worrying about your old trainer's feelings, that's their problem, not yours. Great that you back out doing stuff, long may it continue.

 

[Moodymare88]

I had lessons twice a week with someone for five years, He became a friend, came for a meal once a month and my horse went to him if I went away for a holiday. I put a lot of £ in his pocket but eventually just grew out of his approach and recognised he wasn't challenging me in lessons and he'd become lazy in his teaching. I found it very difficult to break free, was very mindful of his feelings and even said I'd still come once a month for his help. However, he was just horrible so I just went my own way with a new trainer and I never ever regretted it. I made huge progress very quickly and went from dependency as a rider to a more questioning rider. Just move on and stop worrying about your old trainer's feelings, that's their problem, not yours. Great that you back out doing stuff, long may it continue.

I think that’s similar to me…I was too reliant on her, so lost my confidence and self belief but because she was so supportive and controlling I guess i struggled when she wasn’t there as much?! I would have lessons when she wouldn’t say anything…or challenge me.

This evening we had another fab lesson with my new instructor working on a few different things and the progress we have made in just 3 lessons has been huge! I did feel I was treated a lot differently to her other clients and not very professional. We are flying again now and having so much fun together, it’s a great feeling!

 

[teapot]

I had similar with someone at a well known training centre - started out brilliantly, then suddenly found everything was a no, repeated same two horses, never allowed to do anything but the most basic of basics, or just showed a complete lack of disinterest to the extent my confidence was going only one way, and not the positive direction. A change of coach (at the same centre) made me quickly realise it was them, not me!

One thing I will say that I will never ever get too friendly with a coach every again. Like you we'd become quite chummy, and by the end I was feeling like my lessons were being seen as a freebie, oh it's just Teapot, whereas in fact I was still very much a paying client.

 

[LEC]

We are only hearing one side of the story here and you have never confronted the issues you have mentioned with the person.
Ultimately you need to do what is best for you and not to worry about it. I am sure the other person isn’t. Just sounds like you have outgrown your relationship and that’s fine. It happens. Just stop thinking about it and move on. You can allow yourself to be happy and enjoy your horse.

 

[Moodymare88]

We are only hearing one side of the story here and you have never confronted the issues you have mentioned with the person.
Ultimately you need to do what is best for you and not to worry about it. I am sure the other person isn’t. Just sounds like you have outgrown your relationship and that’s fine. It happens. Just stop thinking about it and move on. You can allow yourself to be happy and enjoy your horse.

I did confront her with the issues I have mentioned on several occasions and asked to meet up so we could discuss in person but have just been ignored unfortunately. I do think her intentions were good for the most part and I’m grateful for her help.

 

[Ambers Echo]

So many red flags!

If you work in mental health/counselling, there are very clear ethical guidelines around boundaries, professional conduct and - most importantly - that it is not about you, and the needs of the client are the only consideration.

Riding instructors come from a very different world and I've often been amazed at how stoppy and unprofessional some RIs can be: badmouthing other instructors, yelling at clients, getting the hump if they try someone new, being opinionated and controlling, taking offence etc etc.

The mindset world is one where some people come at it from an original career in MH/counselling and others expand into it from a riding instructor role. There are pros and cons to either route into this way of wroking but, to me, any mindset coach, from whatever background should adhere to the principle that its NOT ABOUT YOU. That sometimes you may feel a client needs to change course or to be challenged in some way - but only ever in their own interests and within an honest discussion. And sometimes a client will outgrow you - which is to be celebrated not resented! And sometimes a client will try a difference approach, which is totally their right too. Some coaches seem to want to foster dependency on them which is the last thing someone wanting support for confidence needs.

This woman has behaved in a very unprofessional way and I would cut ties now. Why would you go back? You are thriving with a new instructor. Enjoy your new found confidence and success and don't look back .x

 

[Ambers Echo]

Incidentally I had a similar problem with my old YO who was also my RI. She would totally get the hump if I had lessons elsewhere, she wanted me to SJ, not event and told me I was 'an idiot' for eventing Amber. After an event Amber would sometimes be a bit more wired at my next SJ lesson and it was always 'well you've ruined all my hard work with her by taking her XC'.

Other liveries used to box off the yard, pretending they were going for a hack, but have other lessons in secret just to avoid the drama!

Things came to a head when she insisted I bit Amber up to the eyeballs, and I did not want to. I ended up leaving the yard even though it was in a good location with great facilities. I was then cut off from all social media and am now blanked at competitions. As are any other liveries who have dared to choose another yard. Even one, who only left to be nearer home when a space came up somewhere far more local, and was given the 'after all I've fone for you' guilt trip.

RIs and YOs can be very odd!

 

[ApolloStorm]

A friend of mine had an instructor where the coach/friend line got very blurred. She had weekly lessons with this person, recommended her to everyone. Even went to the instructors hen do! The instructor would’ve been making a small fortune off this girl - yet one day over nothing the instructor loses it with the girl and flips out screaming at her across the yard. Girl obvs very upset, ended up finding a couple of new instructors and the horse is going better than he’s ever gone and they’re making huge leaps in progress!
Obviously there’s some green eyed ness from the other instructor but apparently she has a rep for doing this and if you’re not in her fan club she doesn’t want to know!

 

[Goldenstar]

I would not make too much of this the lines got a bit blurred it worked for a time now you want a change.
Be friendly when you meet here and move on

You needed a lot of help and support and this coach gave you that and for that you paid her , you became friends not surprising you spend along time together .
Just move on .
This no great drama here no one has done anything particularly wrong smile and get on with enjoying your horse .

 

[Red-1]

So many red flags!

If you work in mental health/counselling, there are very clear ethical guidelines around boundaries, professional conduct and - most importantly - that it is not about you, and the needs of the client are the only consideration.

Riding instructors come from a very different world and I've often been amazed at how stoppy and unprofessional some RIs can be: badmouthing other instructors, yelling at clients, getting the hump if they try someone new, being opinionated and controlling, taking offence etc etc.

The mindset world is one where some people come at it from an original career in MH/counselling and others expand into it from a riding instructor role. There are pros and cons to either route into this way of wroking but, to me, any mindset coach, from whatever background should adhere to the principle that its NOT ABOUT YOU. That sometimes you may feel a client needs to change course or to be challenged in some way - but only ever in their own interests and within an honest discussion. And sometimes a client will outgrow you - which is to be celebrated not resented! And sometimes a client will try a difference approach, which is totally their right too. Some coaches seem to want to foster dependency on them which is the last thing someone wanting support for confidence needs.

This woman has behaved in a very unprofessional way and I would cut ties now. Why would you go back? You are thriving with a new instructor. Enjoy your new found confidence and success and don't look back .x

I agree with this. When I taught privately, I mainly did confidence coaching. Often that meant horse-handling, horse awareness etc as often people lacked confidence because they were dealing with unruly horses or horses with physical issues. Often lessons would start way back with a client learning to simply hold the horse! That was my passion.

My job was to make it their journey and to support them as they made their own decisions and judgements. My job was to point out anything dangerous or injurious, but even on my web page, I specified that (within the safety framework) sometimes it was my job to allow the client to work out what didn't work, as well as what did. It is about the person becoming the orchestrator of their own future, from a position of needing direction all of the time. Once clients were up and running, I would encourage them to strike out into sport-specific coaching. For example, once someone was off at B Novice SJ, doing fine, I encouraged them onto jumping clinics etc. I loved a weekend when people would message me with tales of their adventures and I loved that I'd had a hand in getting them there.

Doing this meant that, if someone had a blip, they would come back and we would work on whatever the blip was. That is being professional. Helping people achieve their goals and being excited for their future success, whilst being available to help again if needed.

My job was also to realise when I had life issues happen that meant I was no longer the best person to fulfil those roles, hence stopping training/coaching.

It is about providing a service and getting my pleasure from a service that was good quality and professional. In my web page, I specified that we would work on whatever the client wanted, and that is key, I think. In your case your goals don't align to the coach's and she didn't adapt her service to suit you. You now have someone who gives you what you need.

I would simply move on, don't overtly contact her, but be the polite and professional one if you meet.

 

[Jellymoon]

I have done things in the past that I didn’t want to do just because I couldn’t bear the thought of offending or upsetting someone, or the thought of them badmouthing me. So I get your feeling of wanting to please, and the thought that it’s easier just to keep going to her to keep her happy. I would be having these thoughts too!

But you have to be brave and fight those feelings as it’s your life and your money and if you are happier with someone else, then you have to go with them. I can assure you she won’t be considering your feelings anywhere near as much as you are considering hers.

And anyway, going back won’t stop her badmouthing you, she’ll do it even more because she will see you as weak!

Unfortunately, for some reason, the horseworld does seem to attract or create a certain type of person. We’ve all come across the bossy, coercive, arrogant, know-it-all trainer who puts their clients down in order to keep them needy.

 

[claracanter]

I would stay with your current coach as it seems to be working and you are getting the results you want. It sounds to me as though your previous coach was undermining your confidence. You have to look at what you really want from your riding and not forget that you are paying these people to help you achieve your goals.
I recently switched coaches. I had been with one for over two years now after moving to a new county, she really took me under her wing and I had some great results. I guess this year , I’ve got a bit stuck though and wasn’t improving or particularly enjoying the lessons so I had a lesson with someone else, quite by chance and it felt totally different. I came away brimming with confidence. It felt odd to be riding my horse in a different way but he has really responded well. My previous coach had been micromanaging everything to the point where I felt I couldn’t do anything without her telling me what to do. It wasn’t much fun when I came out of a dressage arena once with a lower score than expected and she was pulling my riding apart until we realise I had lost 4 marks for error on course. I now realise she was very undermining. She also told me I needed to see a specialist about my lack of confidence but I felt I was having lessons with her to improve my confidence!I told her I was trying a few other people as my husband wanting a lesson with so and so and I was tagging along too. I haven’t heard anything from her since. It’s hard to step away isn’t it and I feel guilty because she’s a lovely person and I loved the chats etc. but at the end of the day I’m paying for a service and if I’m not getting it, I’m fully entitled to move on. I hope you continue to flourish with your new coach.

 

[Moodymare88]

Thank you. It is really hard, i suppose because we have done so much together and come so far, i feel guilty but it isn't personal at the end of the day.

I think that is similar to me, i needed guidance and taking the pressure off for a while, but then i felt she was too controlling. I do find it difficult at the moment to decide what i need and want from my sessions, i know i definitely want to be challenged and pushed, but to also have fun!

 

[MagicMelon]

I wouldnt be upset at all, she was a person you paid for her services in the past - not a friend. She sounds like she was loving riding your horse (and presumably being paid for the privilege) to be honest and is more annoyed she cant get the ride anymore. How can a coach tell you not to compete or go to other training... she sounds toxic. Just forget about her and carry on with your life!

 

[Moodymare88]

Hi all, so i wanted to provide an update on how things have progressed. It has been a tough year, i moved yards last June and we were very happy and settled, and then last month we were asked to leave due to a change in the YO's circumstances, so we are currently at a yard with no onsite menage as i struggled to find somewhere suitable and nearly had to send my mare to a friend for a while as i had no where to keep her!

Anyway, after the relationship broke down, it took me a while to really get back into the swing of things, we did have a few lessons here and there, we did a few ODEs, actually improving each outing finishing the season placing in the top 10, along with doing lots of hacking, fun rides, forest trips and regaining our confidence.

I did try and see if things could be resolved with this coach, but it became apparent that despite trying, she clearly was no longer the coach for me and had infact ruined my confidence and self-belief. I became too reliant on her and i don't recognise the person i became.

The last 2 weeks, we have done a couple of hunter trials where we flew around confidently (a couple of stops last week, my fault, and one yesterday) but the improvement compared to a year ago just makes me feel so proud and we are having so much fun. I have gone from someone who was too nervous to even hack my horse out, to hacking her out on our own the day after moving to a new yard and having the confidence and belief to do it, along with the hunter trials.

I did meet her for coffee a while ago, against by better judgment, lets say i nearly walked out after being called a bully, implied that i am spoilt and a child and don't deserve what i have.

A few people have said the same, they have had a similar experience with her and that she seems to only want clients who have no confidence, experience and are completely reliant on her...probably to make money and it does annoy me that people can get away with it. I was told i was treated like this because she cares...but to me, someone who cares about the horse and rider relationship and tries to sell themselves as a confidence and mindset coach would work with the horse and rider and not put self-doubts in their head. It has taken me a long time to recover from the damage done and the hurt and upset i have received from the numerous messages i have been sent. I am so pleased i made the decision to end the relationship, i do wish i could have done it sooner but i was in such a bad place with my mental health, i thought i was doing the right thing and i think i was taken advantage of and taken for granted.

We have now taken the pressure off, we have lessons but not like we used to, we hack, our relationship has come on so much and despite being told i couldn't do it...we are doing...but we are having FUN! We may not be out there winning red rosettes like some of her clients, but then i am on a tricky horse which i have produced, and to me...going round a hunter trial (which may only be 70 for now until we are ready) with a confident horse, where we are both having fun is more important to me than anything else.

 

[Midlifecrisis]

I’m glad you re feeling better about things moodymare , I don’t think you re on your own dealing with trainers who undermine clients to make them more reliant on them. I have recently been made aware of a couple of similar incidences locally and it seriously saddens me as the women involved are well heeled and have been manipulated into very regular and expensive training sessions which leave them feeling worse about themselves and their horses. …so really well done extricating yourself.

 

[ycbm]

Well done!
.

 

[Rowreach]

It's so odd, I do confidence coaching and coach development, and really the aim of a good coach should be to make yourself redundant and watch your clients fly by themselves. If you become indispensable, you're not doing your job properly.

 

[Moodymare88]

That is interesting Rowreach. I find it also very interesting that when i was having issues hacking my horse, she told me it wasn't worth her time or my money for her to help me with it, yet she does hacking confidence clinics/camps?

Needless to say, without her help, we have overcome our hacking issues along with everything else. I am not the only one who has fed back regarding these issues, people going to XC clinics with her and paying quite a lot of money to basically be stood there for an hour whilst she worked with one of her regular clients who was having issues.

It is funny because after my second ODE i did after changing coaches (we somehow achieved a sub 30 dressage score) she text me to say well done but also asked if i was going to stick with my new coach, she clearly didn't like my answer and ignored me. I mean...not very professional...i was on such a high and then to have that sent to me...just goes to show really she only wanted my money and the ride on my horse, she didn't actually want me to succeed and couldn't cope with me doing better without her!