Cocker pup and cat

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melle

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We have just got a 9 week old working cocker puppy. We also have a cat. I am after some tips for stopping the puppy chasing her up the highest point int he room or up and over the garden fence. Cat is slightly nervous and getting very upset. All the advice seems to be to allow the cat her own space - which we do. Upstairs and the hall is a no dog zone. But people also see discourage the puppy from chasing! How do I do this when she has already hared accross the garden in swift pursuit!? Any ideas.
 
We have a 4 month old puppy, and a slightly nervous cat.

We just let them get on with it. Cat jumps up out of reach (although Daisy only wants to play), or runs off. However we are now at the point where they can both be on the soffa together, can sit near each other in the garden, and occasionally touch noses. The cat has slapped Daisy a few times which has put her in her place.
 
Would a water pistol or similar work to put her off when she was showing too much interest. Jack is terrified of the squirty bottle, always has been so we used to spray him when he got too interested in my parents cat so he didn't get as far as chasing them.
 
Could you have the pup on a long line when the cat is about and a firm 'no' with a pull on the lead if he chases
 
I would put the dog on a long line, as Fides suggests. I don't agree with letting them get on with it - OK if it is a bold cat but unfair if she is nervous, after all she was there first!
Teach 'leave it' as well, stop her chasing using the long line, then distract.
 
Clodagh said:
I would put the dog on a long line, as Fides suggests. I don't agree with letting them get on with it - OK if it is a bold cat but unfair if she is nervous, after all she was there first!
Teach 'leave it' as well, stop her chasing using the long line, then distract.
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This definitely. Both my rescue dog and my mums rescue dog when she visits are not allowed to chase/harass/or pester the cats.

Even if they looked at the cat they way dogs can do with too much interest they got corrected with a leave it/no command.

Agreed its not fair on the cat to let the pup chase it.
 
Brilliant thanks - my husband thinks we should just let them get on with it but two weeks later they are still not improving. And it isn't fair on the cat - she is getting braver but won't some in the house unless the puppy is in her crate now. I have introduced a lead today so will see how this goes.
 
Put the puppy in a crate (train him to be happy in the crate first) when the cat is around. He will have to learn to cope with the cat being around and the cat will learn not to leg it - a running cat triggers the chase reflex). I have done it numerous times and it works well - even with my feisty mature JRT.
 
Personally,
I would leave them be, Cats can jump to higher places and then in a way it's there domain so i would leave it and once the puppy has had a few scratches, i think he will learn that chasing the cat isn't much fun as he thought.
 
If I was in your shoes, I'm quite sure that I would not just leave them to sort out the situation themselves. Not only because you say that your cat is slightly nervous, without also because I wouldn't want my puppy to train herself in cat chasing. I mean okay, if she ran after once or twice, maybe I wouldn't worry, but if it happens regularly, I would consider it the beginning of a habit, and the more she trains on it, the better she will become.

Even though I in general thinks that cats are good at defending themselves, there is also those that isn't good at defending themselves, so I wouldn't put all my hope on the cat one day teaching the puppy that cats have claws.

I ditto the previous suggestions about trying a water filled squirt bottle.
And/or a harness and long line. There is long lines with a type of coating that prevents rope burn, otherwise you need to remember to use gloves.
In both cases, remember to not only say what you don't want, without also saying what it is that you want her to do instead (stop/stay/come...), and praise for doing right.
If you want to try long line training, maybe begin with having a look at this link:
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1599

In Sweden, we use puppy pens made by green compost net more than crates, and sometimes I have set up my puppy pens so that it more or less divided a room into two. Such a puppy pen could be used for allowing a cat and a puppy to get used to being in the same room, but the cat is out of reach for the puppy.
 
I teach all my puppies the NO command and use it when they show any unwanted attention to the cat .
I supervise access at first and am very firm that cat worrying in not on I have never had one ( yet ) that did not grow up good with cats .
 
We put up a baby gate between the lounge and the kitchen so that our cats could either leap over or squeeze through the bars when they wanted some space from our young dog. We also discouraged the dog from any chasing, same as Goldenstar.

Eventually the dog lost interest in chasing them as he lost the game too many times. I do think the cats need to know they can get away easily if they need to, otherwise its too stressful for them.
 
'Preventing' the dog from annoying the cat isn't the answer. The puppy has to learn, one way or another, that it really must stop it's current approach! Anything restrictive, leads, baby gates, cages or whatever will only prevent the puppy from mugging the cat, it wont stop the puppy from wanting to do it.

There are two ways of redirecting the puppy's thinking; the first would be to engineer a situation where the cat 'must' defend itself, and your small woofer will very quickly learn that cats are ~NOT~ to be messed with, and the other, and though I'm opposed to any physical reprimands with puppies as young as yours, then in your shoes, the puppy would very soon learn that 'No' means 'NO'!! Reprimands from humans, for puppies as young as yours, need to be very carefully adjusted, and should be handed down with care, and the effect should be monitored. A reprimand, which would be to really reinforce that when you say 'No', you actually mean it, should be no more than a modest scruffing, and a verbal scalding. If that works, and the puppy seems subdued, then the next time, with luck, a 'growling' should do!

One thing is for certain, if the behaviour pattern becomes entrenched, then you will have serious problems in the future. Any puppy which becomes fixated, especially Cockers (I have 4), can be the very devil to break of their habits.

Good luck.

Alec.
 
The point about barriers (crates, gates, long lines etc) is that the dog learns coping strategies when he can't indulge his chase instinct. Putting a "No!!!" in place is okay so long as you will be able to use it BEFORE the chase instinct cuts in. That is hard wired and once it is in full flow the dog won't hear any command, however conditioned he may be. A swift "down" or "leave" do the same thing but in the same way it is usually too late by the time you realise - cat is running, dog is chasing. And before they have learned to cohabit, your cat will probably have left home.
I am currently retraining a cat chasing cavalier, (having already succeeded with a JRT) who most definitely means business. On his long line or in his crate he is managing to control that instinct, without them he would have done the cat some damage by now. Not worth the risk of letting them sort it themselves TBH, and why would you when there is a much safer and surer way, which is much more fair to the cat?
 
The trouble is the cat will not defend herself (and I feel shouldn't have to) but has been in two situations where she could have given pup a good scratch and has chosen not to. She is scared. She will not even go int he front room where pup's crate is if she can hear the dog so the crate idea isn't really working. The cat is fine if pup is on the lead. And if I catch the pup when she has just seen the cat but before the chase ensues then she will come back when called.

However I agree with Alec in that if the 'chase' becomes a learned behaviour then it will only take a bunny or similar when we are out walking and the pup will be disappearing over the horizon so I do need to get this cracked.

So, how woudl I implement a reprimand when she has just chased the cat out of the garden? At what point? When I have caught her ? At the point of the chase she really isn't listening to me. My FIL has trained many gun dogs and advises that if they misbehave you drag them back to the point where they misbehaved and tell them off then - does this really work?
 
melle said:
So, how woudl I implement a reprimand when she has just chased the cat out of the garden? At what point? When I have caught her ? At the point of the chase she really isn't listening to me. My FIL has trained many gun dogs and advises that if they misbehave you drag them back to the point where they misbehaved and tell them off then - does this really work?
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I think by this point it is too late. If she has already chased the cat, she has set out what she wants to do and has succeeded! Clever me she is thinking.

If you then tell her off once the deed is done and she is trotting back to you looking pleased she wont associate the telling off with the chasing but the returning back to you.

I think the key is stopping her BEFORE the deed has been done. So, as she goes to chase (you have her on a long line), then you correct and say no/leave etc.

Pop her on a long line for going out in the garden and as others have said maybe a baby gate set up so the cat can be a bit more relaxed and has a safe space. Also, if she is giving chase in the house, a light line attached to her so you can have some control of her when the cat is about. Its not forever, just until she learns that chasing cats is a no and has learnt some self control :)

Poor puss cat, especially if she wont give the dog a slap round the face, the dog wont learn that cats have claws. You are right that she shouldn't have to defend herself, its her house too :)

I think causing a situation where the cat is trapped with the dog is totally unfair on a nervous cat. That would be fine for a bold cat, but in this situation I would say no.
 
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melle said:
....... The cat is fine if pup is on the lead. And if I catch the pup when she has just seen the cat but before the chase ensues then she will come back when called.

.......

So, how woudl I implement a reprimand when she has just chased the cat out of the garden? At what point? When I have caught her ? At the point of the chase she really isn't listening to me. My FIL has trained many gun dogs and advises that if they misbehave you drag them back to the point where they misbehaved and tell them off then - does this really work?
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Firstly, and I should have made the point earlier, 9 weeks really is VERY young for a puppy to be displaying such focus, on anything, and if the puppy was here with me, I would remove the temptation, though obviously, you are unable to do that. 9 weeks is also MUCH to young to be squaring a puppy up, properly. If the puppy learns to accept a scolding, and presumably shrug its shoulders, too early in life, then by the time that it's a year old, even a proper squaring up will be of no use, at all. I'm not being a defeatist, but you do, or will soon, have a problem. That you understand.

Remedial work on puppies really shouldn't start at such a young age. The puppy could be stopped now, but I assure you that there will be a price to pay. With all good gundog work, puppies as young as yours, are better off with the temptation removed, rather than trying to affect correction.

It's only a shame that the cat wont 'Man up', and teach the puppy a lesson. The puppy actually sounds just the sort of thing that any cocker man would very much like!! But I understand that that's probably not an option. I see from your posting that you're in EA. If you're within a one hour drive of Fakenham, then PM me, and I will give you an opinion which may be of more use, having actually seen the puppy, and its apparently sinful behaviour!!

Alec.
 
Another who thinks there's no point in reprimanding unless instant as the moment is gone. Much better to distract and reward good behaviour but your timing needs to be perfect. Alternatively I could lend you my 9.5kg Maine Coon (affectionately known as Slasher) who is remarkably good at educating puppies :D.
 
Alec Swan said:
Firstly, and I should have made the point earlier, 9 weeks really is VERY young for a puppy to be displaying such focus, on anything, and if the puppy was here with me, I would remove the temptation, though obviously, you are unable to do that. 9 weeks is also MUCH to young to be squaring a puppy up, properly. If the puppy learns to accept a scolding, and presumably shrug its shoulders, too early in life, then by the time that it's a year old, even a proper squaring up will be of no use, at all. I'm not being a defeatist, but you do, or will soon, have a problem. That you understand.

Remedial work on puppies really shouldn't start at such a young age. The puppy could be stopped now, but I assure you that there will be a price to pay. With all good gundog work, puppies as young as yours, are better off with the temptation removed, rather than trying to affect correction.

It's only a shame that the cat wont 'Man up', and teach the puppy a lesson. The puppy actually sounds just the sort of thing that any cocker man would very much like!! But I understand that that's probably not an option. I see from your posting that you're in EA. If you're within a one hour drive of Fakenham, then PM me, and I will give you an opinion which may be of more use, having actually seen the puppy, and its apparently sinful behaviour!!

Alec.
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IMO this isn't true. The OP shouldn't have to get rid of the cat and the pup wont be ruined for life if it learns that its not acceptable to chase cats.

None of my dogs have been ruined by teaching them that cats are not for chasing and I have never got rid of any of my cats when a dog has come into the family. They learn.

Also, there is no need for squaring up. A dog should never be frightened or worried about the consequence of his/her actions, they learn what is okay and what is not okay through consistent and careful training.
 
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Sadly I can't really remove the temptation as the cat is avoiding the house mostly but attempting to relax in the garden and I cannot walk pup yet as too young. We have been practising a little bit of lead training - me running backwards making it exciting to follow me. I have also been calling her to me on the odd occasion throughout the day but am aware she is young and don't want to try and do too much with her. In the house, if the cat is around she will be put in her crate. I don't think its a huge issue but just want to deal with it correctly now. And was unsure if I should be trying to correct it now or if they normally sort themselves out - sounds like there are mixed opinions.

Alec - I am about 2 hours from you sadly. But yes she is a very good little cocker - field trial champions in her pedigree right back - she is to be used for picking up and beating but trying to get my husband to field trial her (with some proper training for him and her!) She is very focussed on the cat already and the guinea pigs!
 
As I said, not all cats are good at defending themselves. Your cat is not the first cat that I've known/heard about, which didn't defend themselves.

I would really suggest that you put up a puppy pen/compost net to divide the room/rooms/garden, so that when you're busy with other things, and not able to stop her from chasing the cat, she still can't chase the cat, and doesn't have to spend too much time in a crate.

I've heard about what your father-in-law recommended before, about taking them back to where the chase started and telling them off, and undoubtedly it is a method which seems to have worked for some, but personally, I prefer to place that in the category Something I might do as a last resort. Because as the thewonderhorse have already said, it just as easily leads to that you teach the dog something else that you don't want it to learn, e.g. that coming back to you is something negative.

I believe that one of the reasons for why clicker training dogs have become so popular, is because the method is also so good at teaching the owner the importance of timing the click right. But regardless whether you're using a clicker or not, the basic of dog training have a lot to do with timing. Reacting before they've done something unwanted, reward the behaviour you want to reward and not what they do 5 seconds earlier or later, stop the unwanted behaviour without telling them off for what they did 5 seconds before or after the unwanted behaviour...

You need to find the method that works for you and your puppy, which allows you to stop her, before she has stopped listening to you. Before she has once again succeeded at chasing the cat out of the garden.

To me, a long line means that I can teach a puppy that they have to listen to me, because I can "magically" stop them even if/when they've already started to take a few steps to try and run after something. That is why I only use a long line with a harness, so that there is no risk for damaging the puppy's neck.
But preferably, if I see them as much as thinking about running after some e.g. roe deer in the woods, there's a tug on the line + NO! Followed by Come/Sit, or whatever I want her to do instead.
Long line training is really useful for teaching a puppy, that even when they don't seem to be within the owner's reach, they have to listen to what the owner says.

After that you've squirted her with water/given her a tug on the line/said No!/whatever else you've used to stop her from running after the cat, it is important that you remember to give her an alternative, to teach her what it is that you want her to do instead of running after the cat. I think that it will make your training more difficult, if you expect her to want to replace an already taught bad (but fun for her) habit, with nothing. Because if you're not asking her to do anything else, you just don't want her to run after the cat, then guess what? The cat chasing is probably going to continue, since it is a lot more fun and self rewarding for her, than doing nothing.
But e.g. teaching her that sitting still just looking at the cat = really yummy treats/extra fun toy, can become a new habit, which replaces the unwanted habit.

One last thing, is there some food or treats, e.g. tuna, mackerel in tomato sauce, Webbox Cats Delight tasty sticks or ZiwiPeak 'Good-Cat' Treats, which your cat thinks are extra yummy and irresistible? If so, why not try and teach her that being in the same room/garden as the puppy = extra yummy treats.
 
My cat is old now and she has been though it many times with many dogs .
She's very cautious now she's old but will dispense discipline when she knows I am riding shotgun .
She's sweet we have just trained a friends pup together .
 
Well, we actually had the pair of them sat a metre apart on the lawn this afternoon with the pup coming back to me three times when I called. (and the cat hissing at her) Great! Naughty shapey biscuits helped the bribery! Then later on when out there unattended and the cat strolled past she went into chase mode again. So I guess you are all right - the temptation can be removed by me always supervising her in the garden (rather than just out of the kitchen window). I am VERY encouraged that she came back to me earlier in the day for a fuss - its just after she has gone into full on chase mode she cannot be called back. Better timing from me needed I think!

And Finnish - the bribery for the cat is that the puppy picks at her dinner, gets distracted and wanders off and the cat attempts to steal her food - puppy biscuits are yummy apparently!
 
melle said:
Well, we actually had the pair of them sat a metre apart on the lawn this afternoon with the pup coming back to me three times when I called. (and the cat hissing at her) Great! Naughty shapey biscuits helped the bribery! Then later on when out there unattended and the cat strolled past she went into chase mode again. So I guess you are all right - the temptation can be removed by me always supervising her in the garden (rather than just out of the kitchen window). I am VERY encouraged that she came back to me earlier in the day for a fuss - its just after she has gone into full on chase mode she cannot be called back. Better timing from me needed I think!

And Finnish - the bribery for the cat is that the puppy picks at her dinner, gets distracted and wanders off and the cat attempts to steal her food - puppy biscuits are yummy apparently!
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Very well done! You have every reason to feel encouraged. Cockers, when they're wearing an "I'm going to...." Hat, can be testing, at the very least! As you agree, 'Timing' is everything when it comes to checking or stopping unwanted behaviour. It seems that the cat is growing in courage, and if only Pussy will show a more determined outlook, then your puppy WILL learn! Dishing out physical admonishment to a puppy of such a tender age, can ruin an otherwise bright little dog.

I'm still staggered that a puppy of only 9 weeks should be quite so determined, but from the training viewpoint, that's exactly what you want. Cockers can be a bit of a challenge, and conversely, they can be a bit wet. It seems that your pup is of the former variety, and as difficult as they can be, the rewards will make the hard work, just a memory!!

Alec.
 
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