Cocker Rage Syndrome: Fact or Fiction?

[PucciNPoni]

Okay, this might be an emotive subject? Or it certainly seemed that way when discussing it with an owner of a cocker.

Woman brought in her lovely cocker today - have groomed him before and he acts like a normal bolshy young cocker. She seemed surprised that I have no problems grooming him as she said that SHE finds him difficult as he bares his teeth at her when she grooms him. That set off alarm bells - I said to her that she should perhaps get a behaviourist in to nip that in the bud. She dismissed it and said "oh, no it's okay".

But it's not IMO.

I know of another woman who had a cocker like that - one particular time she bent down gave the dog a kiss on top of the head and he launched at her face, resulting in her requiring plastic surgery. She had the dog euthanised. This wasn't a flip or easy decision and she didn't want to pass on the problem to someone else - she did what she felt was the responsible thing by having him PTS.

So it got me to thinking about cocker rage syndrome and mentioned it to the owner of the dog that came in today - and she was suddenly a bit funny about it - as if she's had an argument about it with someone before. Her whole posture changed and she said "No, I don't believe that it exists - I just don't."

So...what do you guys think?

 

[CAYLA]

I believe there is something in it (not sure if rage) but funnily enough we have dealt with a fair few recently and I have paid a bit of interest in it (but alot over all) with this same sudden bahaviour change, one moment everything is ok and the next the dogs has flipped. Inc a litter of pups we had in for comparison, it was the goldens who had remarkable temperament change.
Will await further replies

 

[MurphysMinder]

My grandmother used to breed cockers in the 40s and 50s and she definitely said it existed, and had known of it in a couple of golden cockers she had. I have a feeling it is still mentioned at vet university but don't quote me on that, will check.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I seem to remember a few years ago in Its me or the dog with Victoria Stillwell she was working with a black Cocker who used to flip. In the end its was pts and there was a fuss made about it at the time but it was attributated to Cocker rage.

 

[joeanne]

My friend is a cocker breeder......she no longer breeds solid coloured cockers as they are apparently more prone to it.
And she will tell you herself, cocker rage is a frightening thing to deal with. Its not like having a bolshy dog, its almost like a total flip out temper tantrum.
Thankfully for the most part, they are lovely dogs (how could a spangle not be!).

 

[Alec Swan]

I've had precious little to do with show bred cockers, in that I've never owned one , and these are just my opinions, based on my modest dealings. I suspect that there will be owners of dogs from the show bench, who will tell me that I'm talking tripe!!

Work bred cockers may just as well be a totally different breed. The modern working cocker, is a delight, from what ever viewpoint.

To the show bred dog, and to say that they have a complaint, or to describe it as a "rage", is wrong, I think. As a breed, they are, in my limited experience anyway, perhaps one of the most selfish and ignorant of all dogs. The problem is that very few are ever given the discipline of serious training, the apparent spiteful approach to humans is acquired genetically, and even as a small child, we all learnt to keep clear of Aunt Martha's two cockers.

I had two work bred pups once, (which incidentally both went to the Met Police as bomb dogs), and a lady who lived locally had a show bred black pup. We were chatting one day, and I asked her about her pup (he'd have been 7-8 months, something like that). She said that he wasn't too bad, but if food was ever put on the floor, she couldn't go in the room with him! She said that her vet had said, not to worry, he'd grow out of it, and if he didn't, then he'd be castrated. I was a little less tactful in those days than I am now, and informed her that her vet was talking rubbish.

I saw her a year later, and her castrated little darling had bitten the face of her grandson so badly that he will carry the scars for the rest of his life. When she told me, she was visibly distressed.

Someone mentioned that it may be that Goldens tend to be the worst, I'd imagine that that would be because they are numerically in greater numbers, I suppose.

I don't like show bred cocker spaniels, I'm afraid to say. Others may have had happy experiences of them, but not me.

Alec.

 

[Becca-84]

I have never heard of this before - my cocker spaniel is normally a lovely dog, but gets very possessive. We had her spayed as a youngster because she had phantom pregnancies but since then she has "adopted" cuddly toys/stray socks/plastic bottles...anything she can find really. She smuggles them away into her nest and will sometimes really fly at the other dogs if they dare go near any of her "babies", but has never been snappy with humans. Is this just her being possessive and grumpy, or could it be a sign of Cocker Rage?

...going off to google....

 

[CAYLA]

I have never heard of this before - my cocker spaniel is normally a lovely dog, but gets very possessive. We had her spayed as a youngster because she had phantom pregnancies but since then she has "adopted" cuddly toys/stray socks/plastic bottles...anything she can find really. She smuggles them away into her nest and will sometimes really fly at the other dogs if they dare go near any of her "babies", but has never been snappy with humans. Is this just her being possessive and grumpy, or could it be a sign of Cocker Rage?

...going off to google....

I suspect her phantoms causes alot of the her behaviours and if she was not neutered at exactly the right time or her phantom was not completely finished and her milk production ceased then they can have problems after spaying.
In this instance you really do need to remove all she is posessive of (you are giving her a reason to attack) esp if she sees these items as needing protecting as a mother would puppies, otherwise as suggested above maybe a few more boundaries in regards to what behaviour you accept in your household from your dog.
It's not cocker rage!

 

[reddie]

A friend's mother had a cocker spaniel some years ago. Most of the time it would be perfectly ok, but it would randomly start "guarding" something, and then attack anyone who dared to go near it. Often or not, you wouldn't know what it was guarding. In the end they had to have it pts.

 

[Vizslak]

an aquaintance of mine had a golden (working bred Alec) cocker PTS last year for the same reason. I found it quite upsetting he was the son of one of the cockers I work. He was a lovely dog 99% of time but he couldnt be trusted because he would flip. I believe that was rage syndrome but it was never even mentioned as a possibilty to the owners. I only heard of the problems they were having after he was PTS. As a young dog the year before he was cracking.

 

[MrsElle]

I have known four golden Cockers, all had to be pts after several incidences of rage.

My aunt and uncle owned one, and I was there when he flipped one evening. Totally out of the blue, no provocation, no triggers, he attacked my aunt, resulting in her having to go to hospital and having treatment for the bite wounds. Luckily she managed to get her arms up to her face and it was her arms that bore the brunt.

Three of the cockers were show cockers, the other a working cocker.

I think they are a lovely looking breed, but would never have one after my experiences of them.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Okay, this might be an emotive subject? Or it certainly seemed that way when discussing it with an owner of a cocker.

Woman brought in her lovely cocker today - have groomed him before and he acts like a normal bolshy young cocker. She seemed surprised that I have no problems grooming him as she said that SHE finds him difficult as he bares his teeth at her when she grooms him. That set off alarm bells - I said to her that she should perhaps get a behaviourist in to nip that in the bud. She dismissed it and said "oh, no it's okay".

But it's not IMO.

I know of another woman who had a cocker like that - one particular time she bent down gave the dog a kiss on top of the head and he launched at her face, resulting in her requiring plastic surgery. She had the dog euthanised. This wasn't a flip or easy decision and she didn't want to pass on the problem to someone else - she did what she felt was the responsible thing by having him PTS.

So it got me to thinking about cocker rage syndrome and mentioned it to the owner of the dog that came in today - and she was suddenly a bit funny about it - as if she's had an argument about it with someone before. Her whole posture changed and she said "No, I don't believe that it exists - I just don't."

So...what do you guys think?

s***ty dogs exist. A breed specific s****ty dog I don't believe in. Now, s***ty owners without the balls to sort out their own dogs I do believe in.

 

[CAYLA]

an aquaintance of mine had a golden (working bred Alec) cocker PTS last year for the same reason. I found it quite upsetting he was the son of one of the cockers I work. He was a lovely dog 99% of time but he couldnt be trusted because he would flip. I believe that was rage syndrome but it was never even mentioned as a possibilty to the owners. I only heard of the problems they were having after he was PTS. As a young dog the year before he was cracking.

Should have added, it was workers included in my numbers aswell, and golden funnily enough. Like I say not sure it this is rage as I am still not decided and both where very young dogs/pups. Interesting post so far.

 

[Elle123]

As a breed, they are, in my limited experience anyway, perhaps one of the most selfish and ignorant of all dogs.

Have to say I strongly disagree with this. Obviously peoples exposure to certain breeds shapes the way people view them, but all the (show) cockers I know personally (as in see regularly) are the most loving, happy, loyal little dogs.

My little Pixel is show strain, and yes she is not the norm as such due to her physical issues (eyes) she doesn't have a nasty bone i her body.

Yes there is certainly Rage as an issue, as far as I know of it, it is more commonly seen in the solid colours of the breed. The goldens and reds are particularly prone.

As far as the ones that people have seen who show such tendencies (not rage) I feel its more due to the ignorance of the owners. A owner that doesn't think its necessary to train their cocker, isn't exactly likely to go seek a good line from a respectable breeder, therefore the bad temperament, as can be found in ANY breed, crop up once again due to BYB.

I think pain issues are also over looked. There are sooo many cockers around now, that the all to common genetic issues start to appear. People can then mistake the signs of pain for aggression and there you have it an unhappy, uncomfortable dog shouting to tell you the problem.

Am interested to see the responses in this thread though

(p.s sorry if that didn't make sense, not well atm!)

 

[CAYLA]

Also as BS says indeed we do see alot for rehome due to owners "mess up" basically.

 

[Aru]

It exists and it is related to a gene.In both the cocker lines and scarily enough in Bernese mountain dogs as well.
Has been more linked to the golden colour in cocker's but can be found in others.....its a "Rage syndrome" where there is a sudden abnormal change in behaviour with no known trigger...just sudden attacks from seconds earlier placid relaxed dogs for no reason scary stuff.

However I dont think that is what most cockers are aggressive over. As a breed I have had some very nasty run ins with cocker...most aggressive dog I have ever seen was a 13 month old black pup and Ive seen a fair few aggressive dogs......but in the Rage syndrom itself is extremely rare.Most of the time its just ill tempered or opinionated little dogs.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

It exists and it is related to a gene.In both the cocker lines and scarily enough in Bernese mountain dogs as well.
Has been more linked to the golden colour in cocker's but can be found in others.....its a "Rage syndrome" where there is a sudden abnormal change in behaviour with no known trigger...just sudden attacks from seconds earlier placid relaxed dogs for no reason scary stuff.

However I dont think that is what most cockers are aggressive over. As a breed I have had some very nasty run ins with cocker...most aggressive dog I have ever seen was a 13 month old black pup and Ive seen a fair few aggressive dogs......but in the Rage syndrom itself is extremely rare.Most of the time its just ill tempered or opinionated little dogs.

Can you specify the gene responsible please.

 

[willhegofirst]

I remember reading an article many years ago about a vet that had done some genetic research into golden cockers due to the amount he had pts due to rage, he had found they could all be traced back to one dog. I knew someone who had had a golden pts as it had attacked them on more than one occasion.

 

[PucciNPoni]

Thank you all for some really interesting replies.

I don't think that specifically that the dog I had in today was a "rage" dog (though his red color did kind of make me think of it) - probably more that the owner not understanding dog behaviour was perhaps allowing it to get the better of her at home. She was poo pooing the idea of getting a behaviourist in, says the dog was "warning" her - and from what I've been reading, Rage dogs don't warn, they act and FAST. The fact that her dog warns her at all seems to me like she's not got it under control at all. He is absolutely lovely to work with for me, so I reckon he just takes the mick a bit. I think I mentioned the Rage thing to her because I wanted her to understand the importance and severity of getting a dog like this seen by a professional - but she really was thoroughly adamant that she wouldn't hear of it (be it a medical or a behavioural condition).

Alec, I kind of know what you mean with regard to cockers being selfish/ignorant. They do often give off this appearance - though I'm sure they're lovely at home, I find them generally a difficult dog to deal with because of that personality. (Oh dear, I'm going to draw hate mail from the spangle massives here - sorry guys ) While there are many many individuals I really like, they come across as untrainable at times.

 

[s4sugar]

Rage syndrome exists. It is not unique to cockers and in the USA is more often seen on springers. I have seen it in a Lab too.

The last cocker I saw with rage was a real Jekel & Hyde character. He could be sweet one minute and then it was as if a switch had been flicked. His eyes would unfocus and he would blindly fly at anything - could be a person or a door frame.

It is a a related condition to epilepsy and is believed to be hereditary
.

 

[PucciNPoni]

It is a a related condition to epilepsy and is believed to be hereditary
.

Now that's rather interesting! I could kind of get my head round that.

 

[Alec Swan]

Have to say I strongly disagree with this. Obviously peoples exposure to certain breeds shapes the way people view them, but all the (show) cockers I know personally (as in see regularly) are the most loving, happy, loyal little dogs.

............

Elle, in my defence, I did say that my experience of show cockers was limited, and I hope that you'll accept that I certainly didn't imply that all cockers were the same, though in truth, there seems to be a disproportionate amount that are.

I will admit that there is a very serious drive to use direct in-breeding within working cockers, and it's always possible, that with, for instance, show cockers, a particularly successful dog will be used, to a great extent, and I do wonder if some of these undesirable behavioural traits are a result of this.

Once again, and it's long been my argument, small gene pools are going to produce flaws. There's no escaping that.

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

This thread rang a few bells and had me searching through my small library. Dr Roger Mugford, dog behaviourist, did some research on this problem in cockers in the 1980's. He mentions this in his book "Dr Mugford's Case Book" published by Hutchinson/Stanley Hall. From page 161 if anyone is interested in reading further. Several breeds show similar symptoms but it was not uncommon in spaniels, though apparently less so now.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Rage syndrome exists. It is not unique to cockers and in the USA is more often seen on springers. I have seen it in a Lab too.

The last cocker I saw with rage was a real Jekel & Hyde character. He could be sweet one minute and then it was as if a switch had been flicked. His eyes would unfocus and he would blindly fly at anything - could be a person or a door frame.

It is a a related condition to epilepsy and is believed to be hereditary
.

^^^This!

I have no experience with cockers, but have several friends with American Springers. Yes, Rage Syndrome in Springers is very real. I know of 3 that have been pts. They were from different lines, from disparate geographical locations. In one case, a friend's 8 year old daughter was attacked, out of the blue, in their home while the children were doing their homework. The bitch had been raised by their very dog-savvy family. She was a lovely dog, friendly, affectionate, biddable. She had an obedience title, and was a few points shy of her show championship. The little girl had to have plastic surgery on her face (almost lost her eye). The dog was put down. No brain tumour, clear eyes, no epilepsy. Needless to say, the owners never replaced her with another Springer. The 2 other dogs I did not know, but were known by a very good friend of mine, who was a respected Springer breeder.

 

[Elle123]

Understand Alec hence why I said all the ones that I know. Everyone's views are shaped by the dogs they come across. Strangely enough I have found the workers to be more reactive in an aggressive sense than show cockers. However, as I think about it, all of the show strains that I know personally at roans (pixel is a blue roan

 

[Elle123]

) and it's becoming more apparently the affect that colour in cockers differs the temperament. Though in some ways that is seen across many breeds who's standard allows varying colours. Chocolate labs spring to mind in the amount of time they take to mature in my experience, often longer than their black or yellow counterparts. So as well as the working showing separation, could it get to the point where there is a noticeable difference between the solid and roans etc of breeds?

 

[TurtleToo]

Very interesting, I hadn't heard of it before. As someone mentioned it is also known in labs, what about Golden Retrievers? My uncle's very biddable male attacked him in the car one day, he went to the hospital to get fixed up, returned home, petted and fed the dog, led it down the hall by its collar and it launched at him again. He ended up with a lot of stiches and thankfully the injuries were only to his arms and legs (the second time he actually had to kick the dog away). The dog was pts the next day.

 

[Skippys Mum]

I sometimes wonder if its a colour related thing with animals in general? Apparently redheaded people/dogs/horses etc have more nerve endings per square inch of skin than any other colour and this can make them more susceptible to external stimuli.

Personally, I wouldnt have a red/golden show cocker in my house having seen many with issues (not necessarily true rage but certainly nasty).

I have a red and white border collie and I have to say that, much as I love him, I will never have another red and white one. There are several at the training club I go to and they are all a bit iffy temperament wise. My black and whites are far more amenable.

 

[EAST KENT]

It certainly does exist!We groomed a red cocker years ago,whose owner had already been in A@E with a bite,he was only five/six months old.She was a lovely lady,a head teacher at a girl`s Public School. Anyhoos ,it took two of us four HOURS to groom this little sod,biting,snapping,squirming,the lot. The funny thing was that thereafter he would come in and sit on the grooming table with his eyes almost shut ,a happy? grin and seemed almost in a trance of delight.He never once caused me any trouble thereafter.With his owner,well I think she learned to avoid the issue.
Rage is a definite neurelogical problem in some bull terrier lines,these dogs are perfect in a kennel environment,but in the home they try it on. Pretty scary ,truth be told,a typical case would come over for a scratch etc,normal wavy tail,and then on contact,esp on the back,it will freeze and then attack.Also linked to epilepsy ,as is tail chasing and very often the two afflictions occur in the same poor dog.
Obviously PTS is the only solution.What always amazes me is that owners of these dogs seem to always want another bullie!!

 

[PucciNPoni]

Rage is a definite neurelogical problem in some bull terrier lines,these dogs are perfect in a kennel environment,but in the home they try it on. Pretty scary ,truth be told,a typical case would come over for a scratch etc,normal wavy tail,and then on contact,esp on the back,it will freeze and then attack.Also linked to epilepsy ,as is tail chasing and very often the two afflictions occur in the same poor dog.


QUOTE]

Interesting what yoiu're saying about the getting a scratch, contact on the back sets them off. Yesterday I had a new dog in, a xterrier (vet seems to think some collie in there, and I would agree it did have a face/ear setn of a sheltie). Anyhoo, wee dog was a bit nervous perhaps but otherwise fine when I brought it in to the grooming room, on to the table, gave it a brush, brought it to the bath, removed his collar and went to put on the grooming loop and dog went absolutely BALLISTIC! It kept backing away, snapping and screaming (but it wasn't actually trying to attack so much as avoid being collared!). I have never ever seen anything so reactive to something so normal as changing a collar. Any subsequent movements toward it's neck specifically triggered thsi behavior. It was suggested to me that perhaps it'd be shock collar treated at some point? I dunno, but it's plausible I suppose.

When I spoke to the owner about it, he seemed to not know why, and vaguely disinterested, and frankly I don't think he believed me. The dog was fine for everything else - a bit rigid perhaps but then relaxed. Screamed for his nails, but never actually pulled away for it. I'm perplexed as to whether this is a behavioural issue or a pain related one.