Coffin Join arthritis. Absolutely gutted..

TicTac

TicTac

Well-Known Member
Joined
29 April 2008
Messages
3,109
Location
Bedfordshire
Visit site
Some of you may be aware that my mare Tictac had a kissing spine operation 18 months ago to remove 4 dorsal spinous tops. The outcome of that operation was very successful and she came back into work a better happy horse.

BUT in april this year she went lame in her off fore. Today I picked her up from the veterinary clinic after her lamesness work up to be told she has arthritis in her coffin joint and that she will only ever be suitable as a light hack, If that!

I have no insurance on her front legs now so allthough she had a joint injection today, I wont be able to afford that on a regular basis. She can have Danillon to keep her comfortable.

I'm a bit numb at the moment to think too much about her future other than if any of you wonderful folk on here have any experience of this kind of problem I would be happy to hear from you. Good or bad...........off for another cry now :-(
 
Sorry to hear about your mare. I have a horse with coffin joint arthritis which first appeared about 3 years ago. Basically, we started with joint injections (which gradually became less and less effective) and then went on to one bute a day which allowed us to hack out quite nicely but I had to give up schooling and dressage competitions. In the event he also managed to get collateral ligament damage in the same foot for which every treatment except Tildren was tried. Nothing worked. Worse thing was that he had to have 3 months box rest which virtually crippled him because the arthritis should have been kept moving not resting. We are now back to one bute a day and hacking out but he is still unlevel on the left rein.
Unfortunately, there is no cure but if you can manage on one bute/danillon a day at least you can get her out. Incidentally, these anti-inflamatories build up in the system to achieve quite a good level of soundness.
Good luck.
 
Thank you Zuzzie for your informative post. One good thing is that it appears that there is no ligament damage that can be seen. ( as yet anyway) So I will play around with the bute medication and find a level that keeps her comfortable and able to hack out.

She is such an intelligent mare and would be unhappy doing nothing.
 
Frank was diagnosed with it in off fore in January (went lame and initial work up on November, tried remedial shoeing.. so nerve blocked joint in January), he also has flat pedal bones/underun heels (initial diagnosis) which has probably contributed (he is 19 and had a busy life).

In Jan he was in bar shoes and feet looking better, had injection into joint = initial improvement and may have remained sound for light (ie walk) hacking but went lame on introduction of trot/longer hacks 7 weeks after injection.

At which point he was injected again and I took his shoes off as I didn't think they were helping at all, also I repeated injections are not viable, especially when he is an older horse anyway. I figured if he was retiring to the field he would have shoes off anyway but that he might also get himself a better foot structure to support/cushion the joint still. About 7 weeks post 2nd injection now and still sound but only in walk work until his feet change more and time will tell in the long run.
 
My boy was diagnosed with coffin joint arthritus 2 years ago. I opted not to go for joint injections as although they help initialy I believe they speed up the degeneration long term. I have worked with my farrier & we looked criticaly at his foot balance although he apeared to have excellent feet we took his shoes off gave him 2 months off turned out. After the holiday has was sound. I had him shod kept the toes short and bought him in to work very very slowly lots of walk work.

My vet was convinvced he would just go lame again. He stayed sound from october to July in full work jumping everything. In july he went slightly lame. I ended up giving him 6 weeks off as I was busy at work, had exams & I was due to go away anyway.

After the 6 weeks he was sound. I bought him back into work. This spring we have been to a few hunter trials etc. I think the key to him is the ground. He feels amazing at the min he is 20 this year and feels as good as ever. However as the ground hardens up I will be very careful what I do.

As he is 20 and arthritic I do not do as much as I used to. I have decided just to have fun with him while I can. I think everything is a bonus he owes me nothing. So I go into a competition feeling no preassure and no nerves :)

He is on a good joint suppliment, I feed devils claw or a bute suppliment ifhe is lame or some times when he is shod as he seams to react to this some times.

I hope this makes you feel positive I did not follow the vets advice. They told me he wouldgo lame as soon as I worked him.
 
Has your vet discussed the option of IRAP with you? I do realise you're not insured and it's not cheap (you would be looking at around £1000) but I've known it to have excellent results for coffin joint arthritis and it's well worth looking into.
 
Minieventer, thanks for your input. My mare has been lame on and off for the past year and last summer all I did was walk hack her. She loved it and by the winter was sound enough to do everything on a good surface. It was in april when the ground was rock solid that she suddenly went lame again.

I also believe that too many injections into the joint are not a good thing but will see if the one she had today will give her any relief.

On 2 bute a day she is a happy bunny. She's a warmblood so substantial enough to take that sort of dose for short periods at a time.

At the moment the ground is very soft ( and I wonder why?!!) so I wont worry too much about her being with shoes which were taken off for the x rays today. I have spoken to my farrier and he is happy with that decision as he says that her hoof capsule is good anyway. Bar shoes are no good for her and hindered more than helped when they were put on last summer.

I do find that some vets can be very doom and gloom sometimes and dont give credit to the power of love that us horsey people give to our beloved animals.

I will give her time to re adjust and when it bl**dy well stops raining get back on and start our walks in the countryside again.

When I said to my daughter why, when I love my horses so much do they always go wrong, she said " Perhaps you're meant to love the one's that go wrong because no body else will. Ticcy loves you and I'm sure she will try her hardest to let you still ride her " Now that made me smile.
 
Awrr Tictac your daughter sounds lovely and she has made me smile today to.

I will remember those wise words when I visit my horses in the morning.

When I feel really down I just try and think back to when I was in my early 20's so desperate for a horse. I saved up and paid for mine and its keep myself. And I felt so lucky I didnt care if I could never ride him even if I just had one to groom and muck out everyday.

I know it doesnt feel lucky when things go wrong but I remind myself that I am very lucky even to have ever owned a horse. Although I also believe we make are own luck so try and figure that one out!!!


Good luck and I hope she comes right for you x x x
 
And please do take time to read this, tons of information about horses with hoof issues and a radical way to bring "written off" horses back to soundness:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

My boy had the very same diagnosis back in the very late nineties and we went through various shoeing approaches, the best of which was Natural Balance, but if it happened again I'd go barefoot without hesitation.
 
GoodyGoody said:
Tictac, your problems are all too common. I'm glad you mentioned KS as the KS operation is treating a symptom not a cause. What you are experiencing is the result of the original cause not being diagnosed correctly. Your horse is a mechanical structure. It is the muscles that are designed to carry the load and the ligaments and tendons which transfer the power to the lower legs,provide locomotion and keep bones in the right place (very simplistically!). Arthritis is another common symptom of overloaded joints. Unfortunately I am probably nowhere near you as I live currently in Central France but all the symptoms you talk of are very typical of untreated muscular problems. What you need is to find someone locally who can reliably diagnose muscular problems. It sounds like your horse has problems in the pectoral area at least and probably elsewhere. Finding an effective treatment is also not easy as these type of problems rarely respond to massage.
Click to expand...

Interesting response and very true. Her kissing spine x rays are in the picture section of this veterinary forum at the bottom of page 8 if you are interested. You living in central france is no good!!! lol When you say muscular problems, are you able to eloborate on that at all? we have licenced / registered physio therapists and ' back' people in this country but nobody like your Jean Luc Cornille that I know of!

She is quite a compact mare with a short back and 2 different front feet. Both up classed as boxy but her ' arthritic ' hoof is the more upright and boxier of the two. ( reffered to as a club foot ) Prior to me owning her she did a lot of show jumping.
 
Last edited:
sbloom said:
And please do take time to read this, tons of information about horses with hoof issues and a radical way to bring "written off" horses back to soundness:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/

My boy had the very same diagnosis back in the very late nineties and we went through various shoeing approaches, the best of which was Natural Balance, but if it happened again I'd go barefoot without hesitation.
Click to expand...

I am a fan of Rockley and have a friend who's horse ( Dylan) went there last year for re-hab. I was more under the impression that Rockley could do more to help horses with soft tissue injuries rather than degenerative bone problems.

she is totally shoeless at the moment and I have to say not very comfortable. ( only been shod in front anyway) she is conformationally challanged in that she has 2 completely different front feet and it is the more boxy ( technically referred to as a club foot) upright one that has suffered the problem.

what happened to your horse in the end if you dont mind me asking?
 
tictac I did email Nic a couple of times, once when we just had the caudal hoof pain diagnosis and again when he had the DJD diagnosis to query using barefoot for such a diagnosis. I can't remember her exact replies but it certainly wasn't a no it won't work at all! and in theory, him building up the internal structure in the back of his foot should improve the pedal bone angle and in turn the DJD.

as I decided he had nothing to loose by trying it if the alternative would be retiring to the field for as long as viable, if he still ends up doing that it is fine but I will know that we gave it a go :). I am just not happy doing that without trying it first.
 
One of ours (BE novice eventer) developed coffin joint arthritis 2yrs ago. We had the joint medicated and heart bar shoes on but he didn't really improve that much. Instructions were that he should have lots of gentle exercise, but with working full time and 2 others to do have to admit he didn't get lots. Eventually we got loss of use on him and found a lovely loaner. She started hacking him a lot and he has gone from strength to strength - now going out competing (did 2nd round trailblazers combined training today :)) and is as happy as could be. Still has heart bars on - which he wears out every 5-6 weeks but no more injections and no bute. :D
 
Last edited:
stroppymare153 said:
One of ours (BE novice eventer) developed coffin joint arthritis 2yrs ago. We had the joint medicated and heart bar shoes on but he didn't really improve that much. Instructions were that he should have lots of gentle exercise, but with working full time and 2 others to do have to admit he didn't get lots. Eventually we got loss of use on him and found a lovely loaner. She started hacking him a lot and he has gone from strength to strength - now going out competing (did 2nd round trailblazers combined training today :)) and is as happy as could be. Still has heart bars on - which he wears out every 5-6 weeks but no more injections and no bute. :D
Click to expand...

Unfortunately for my mare, the foot that she has the arthritis is is technicaly referred to as a club foot ( on the scale of things quite mild though) She first went lame last may, blocks confirmed coffin joint pain but the xrays taken at the time showed no changes. After an initial paddock rest period I started hacking her out and did so through out the summer, only at walk as the ground was so hard. By september/october she was sound and I had a winter of riding her, albeit conservatively. It was when she was turned out 24/7 in march and the ground was rock hard again that a few weeks later she went lame again.

This time the x-rays did show bony changes allthough the vet said they are very subtle, but enough to make her uncomfortable again.

As previous posters have said, managment will be the key to keeping her happy. She is a horse that needs to be doing something so I will take each day as it comes and be guided by her.
 
TicTac said:
I am a fan of Rockley and have a friend who's horse ( Dylan) went there last year for re-hab. I was more under the impression that Rockley could do more to help horses with soft tissue injuries rather than degenerative bone problems.

she is totally shoeless at the moment and I have to say not very comfortable. ( only been shod in front anyway) she is conformationally challanged in that she has 2 completely different front feet and it is the more boxy ( technically referred to as a club foot) upright one that has suffered the problem.

what happened to your horse in the end if you dont mind me asking?
Click to expand...

Sadly I lost him to a field accident only a couple of months after NB shoeing got him sound :(.

I think if you read further on Nic's work you will see that bone degeneration and soft tissues injuries in the foot are massively interrelated - most of her clients x rays show bony as well as soft tissue changes. I would go further to say that, even with the relatively recent introduction of Tildren (which I would not use, it remodels bone throughout the body from what I have read, I know an orthodpod who says she'd never use it on her horse) barefoot really shows the only success stories, long term, where bone has been laid down and soundness returned.
 
My older horse has this.
He has had treatment over the last year, injections into the joint as well as cartrophen and is on devils claw.
The injections don't seen to be lasting as long.
The insurance cover has now finished so any treatment I will have to pay for.

He is hacking but have to be careful of hard and uneven ground.
 
I happened to speak to Nic yesterday and asked her about this - she feels that so much bone and soft tissue issues are related and would never rule out her approach working for a horse diagnosed with purely DJD. However, without MRI scans it's very hard to say there is no soft tissue damage, and bony changes almost always impact the soft tissue around them. Foot balance and function is always absolutely critical to rehabbing these cases, and there is also more evidence coming out about using metal near bones (ie shoeing) - hip replacements in humans have been seen to cause thinning of the bones they are attached to.

Personally I've never heard a long term success story from injections etc (and I can't imagine a situation where I would go that route), but there are plenty of horses returned to work and a happy life with the right barefoot programme.
 
GoodyGoody said:
Tictac, your problems are all too common. I'm glad you mentioned KS as the KS operation is treating a symptom not a cause. What you are experiencing is the result of the original cause not being diagnosed correctly. Your horse is a mechanical structure. It is the muscles that are designed to carry the load and the ligaments and tendons which transfer the power to the lower legs,provide locomotion and keep bones in the right place (very simplistically!). Arthritis is another common symptom of overloaded joints. Unfortunately I am probably nowhere near you as I live currently in Central France but all the symptoms you talk of are very typical of untreated muscular problems. What you need is to find someone locally who can reliably diagnose muscular problems. It sounds like your horse has problems in the pectoral area at least and probably elsewhere. Finding an effective treatment is also not easy as these type of problems rarely respond to massage.
Click to expand...

The claims you are making are very dangerous IMO, looking at your website you are a 'horse enthusiast' trained by an anonymous person using oils to massage horses?? That in itself is OK but you are claiming to know more than top equine vets and physios as to the treatment of KS? :eek:
 
Well the difference in my boys way of going since his operation is amazing! Light as a feather in the hand, little resistance. I'm not one who wouldn't query a vet but this anti KS surgery stuff is worrying from unqualified people.
 
I'm not anti anything in principle, just in getting to the root cause of what works. xxMozlarxx, I am very happy that your horse is going great. But how about answering my proposition with your own reasoned arguments? Who says only vets can have the answer? What happened to years of experience? We have been using this treatment at the top level of equestrian sport for over 30 years. We currently have vets very interested in what we do as traditional methods of treating poor performance, persistent lameness and the gamut of locomotion problems are clearly not working otherwise why are so many excellent quality horses barely making it into adulthood. The only root through the minefield, is a) openness to learn and be wrong! and b) to be able to put aside our prejudices and c) to work only with results. How about looking to find out what we do? What can you lose? You cannot argue with the theory: it's all pretty logical. Without the soft tissues (i.e. a skeleton!) the bones wouldn't rub together so isn't the first place to look in the soft tissues? The problem is that a) most vets are not trained in horse locomotion (BTW, I have NO problem at all with vets) this is just the way it is and b) there are very few remedies out there that actually work.
 
On the contrary many vets have years and years of experience of watching and studying how a horse moves, what an incredible statement to make!!
 
Sorry to hear that. My horse was diagnosed with a bony spur on his coffin joint about five years ago and had a steroid injection, went a whole four and a half years before it needed injecting again. His was diagnosed with xray as moderate to severe. Have a feeling it is troubling him again after did a bit of trotting on the road up hill like a pillock (me not him).

So won't do anymore trotting on hard ground/roads again but hopefully he will be fine, I think I'm lucky that the steroid injections will keep it at bay until it eventually catches up with him.
 
My vet suspected that my mare's kissing spine was congenital. For a mare she is quite compact and has a short back. Also despite her incredible pedigree she was born with one hoof more upright and boxier than the other, technically referred to as a club foot, So while we have slightly gone off the original subject here, it is in fact the conformation of my mare that has caused her problems.

Some horses are born wrong physically and there is not alot you can do about it other than try to give them the best remedial help you can, be it farrier or chiro etc. I trust the professional people I use and know that they have gained their knowledge and expertise through the proper training. There is no way I would have let some ' back' person pull her around without having had a look at the xrays first. However we are all human, and all subject to error. I dont think that you have to be a certified professional to know your stuff but oils and massage will not help my mare's coffin joint problem.

Unfortunately as it stands at the moment re her arthritis, I dont think my mare is going to remain comfortable enough to have a usefull existance. But if I thought that tweaking a few muscles would do the trick, then bring it on!
 
Hey ho. TicTac I'm sorry this thread had got a bit off the subject. The only point I really wish to make is that the first port of call is a detailed assessment of the cause of the problem. Once you have found the cause you can start to address the problem. The second element of my clearly controversial statement (although I fail to see why it is so controversial) is that muscles which are (for whatever reason) not doing the job they were designed for can have all sorts of impact on the horse both physically and of course mentally. So, things like KS, arthritis, swollen/snapped tendons, behavioural problems etc CAN be an indication of muscle dysfunction. In my experience to date muscle malfunction is rarely even considered. I'm glad you have traced the cause of the problem. I hope you manage to find a solution that gives her the quality of life she clearly deserves.
 
Hi TicTac

I dont have a miracle cure unfortunately, I really wish I had. I wanted to post as you were so helpful sharing your KS experience with me when I had to make the tough decision as to what to do for my Mac, I wanted to share my experience of Coffin Joint Arthritis with you, in the hope that it might in some way help.

My 15.2 shire x cob had Keratoma surgery in Dec 2009. The surgery didnt go to plan and the long and short is that he was left with damage to the coffin joint which affectively left him arthritic. I was told by one of the top horse hospitals in the UK that he would never be ridden again. 3 months following the surgery he was still 2/10th lame and on 2 bute a day.

about 6 months after the surgery he became 'field sound' and went to one bute a day and seem happy in himself, so I decided that I would let him live out his years in the field happy and content and promised myself that at the moment the long term bute use was showing an affect on his health that I would let him go peacefully and at home where he was loved.

So winter 2010 I turned him away and left him to it. Over the coming months he seemed to improve more and more and seemed much more comfortable on his feet. After lots and lots of conversations with the vets he came back into work autumn last year and is still being ridden. He is now off the bute and even popped a little jump a few months back. He is relegated to happy hacking land, and only goes out in the forest once a week for a wander, but he is happy and enjoying work again. I never push him and am very careful to keep an eye on the ground.

I know Harrys case is an exception, and I know arthritis is degenerative and he will decline over time, but I wanted to share as I remeber that feeling bringing him home from the vets and feeling all hope was lost. Dont give up hope just yet, I know youve been through the mill with your mare but try to stay positive if you can.

From here on in only you can decide whats best for your mare, no one else knows her like you do or sees how she is on a day to day.

Good luck for the future

x
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top