Colic surgery or PTS, do we really have any choice

soulfull

soulfull

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Just a pondering

If your horse is insured and vet says it needs colic surgery but you decide you do not wish horse to be put through it would the insurance still pay out on 'loss of horse' or are we forced to put our horses through surgery??

Would it depend on what your vet told insurance company?
any other what ifs?
 
My horses needed colic surgery but he was old (22), travelled poorly and was a nightmare on box rest so I decided it wasn't in his best interest and had him PTS.

Initially insurance said they wouldn't pay but I didn't care- t'oss was my main concern.

In the end the vet was appalled at their attitude and wrote a letter supporting my actions- they did pay out after that.:)
 
I had a horse pts years ago. He had colic and it had gone on for around 10 hours with 5 or 6 vet visits. The only option would have been surgery, however I was uninsured and actually uninsured or not I do not think I would put a horse through colic surgery; I do not believe the long term prognosis after surgery is great.
 
soulfull said:
Just a pondering

If your horse is insured and vet says it needs colic surgery but you decide you do not wish horse to be put through it would the insurance still pay out on 'loss of horse' or are we forced to put our horses through surgery??
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I almost think it's irrelevant - we do what we feel is best for the horse at the end of the day.

There's not many 'big' surgeries that I'd put a horse through - this is one of them. So if the insurance company wouldn't pay out, it would be my loss.
 
YasandCrystal said:
I had a horse pts years ago. He had colic and it had gone on for around 10 hours with 5 or 6 vet visits. The only option would have been surgery, however I was uninsured and actually uninsured or not I do not think I would put a horse through colic surgery; I do not believe the long term prognosis after surgery is great.
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This is my dilemma, I am not convinced of recovery rates, but not so unconvinced as to definitely say no. Therefore if the insurance insisted on it, it may sway me towards having it done, not purely for the pay out but just because I am on the fence anyway
 
I'm uninsured and have several horses I wouldn't put thro colic surgery and a couple that I may do.

I would expect to discuss all options with the vet and to jointly make a decision with the vet who I would expect to support me and ultimately that decision would be the vet's advice for that horse in those circumstances. That is how my vet always works with me in any illness situation. Surely then that would be his diagnosis and advice which was passed to the insurance company.
We would have considered all factors such as age, general health, condition to travel, temperament of the horse and his ability to cope etc etc.
 
Recovery rates from colic are not that bad at all. It depends on the age of the horse (as does all surgery) and the cause of the colic. If I were making the decision now and the horse was insured, I would be guided by the vet as to whether surgery was a viable option and the insurance company should also take the vets advice as being in the best interests of the horse.
 
I base my statement on the fact that the vet I know who does colic surgery doesn't think they'd put their own horse through it. That speaks volumes to me and makes me think I wouldn't even go there!
 
I lost a lovely horse after colic surgery. He wasn't insured but he was worth his weight in gold. He was huge, nearly 18 hh and a heavyweight. He was the gentlest, kindest horse you could ever wish for. So as we stood there watching them shove tubes up his nose into his stomach in a vain attempt to shift the blockage, and blood drooled out of his nostrils (sorry to be so graphic but this is the truth of what they do so be prepared for it), we were told there was no option other than surgery. We were told it would cost between £3k and £6k and that he had a fifty fifty chance of making it. He was so well behaved and stood beautifully throughout all the procedures he was put through. I looked into his face, his kind eyes blinked calmly and his huge feet beautifully placed in his impeccably trained square halt. What choice did we have? He deserved every chance and so we said 'yes'. It was almost midnight when we got home and we lay awake waiting for the call which came at 2 am to say the surgery had gone well. I fell asleep, but was awakened by a phonecall at 4 am saying he was unable to get to his feet. His back legs were paralised and what did I want them to do? I was gutted. I asked them to try for another hour in the hope that he would regain sensation in his hind quarters, but it was not to be. At 5 am I gave the instruction to put my beautiful boy to sleep.

So would I do it again? For a year or so after the event, I would have said 'no'. I wished we had had him PTS at home rather than travel him the 2 hours to the hospital and have that happen. But now I am not so sure. I think that if it was a horse I really cared about then I would do anything to give them a chance at life. I would probably do it all again in the hope that this time we would get lucky.
 
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jesstickle said:
I base my statement on the fact that the vet I know who does colic surgery doesn't think they'd put their own horse through it. That speaks volumes to me and makes me think I wouldn't even go there!
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I certainly wouldn't rule it out on that basis! I worked in one of the largest equine operating theatres in the country and the vast majority of colic surgeries had an uneventful return to full health and performance. Yes, there was the odd one that was PTS on the table and even fewer who had post surgery complications but these were nearly always the very sickest horses who had large resections etc.
 
jesstickle said:
I base my statement on the fact that the vet I know who does colic surgery doesn't think they'd put their own horse through it. That speaks volumes to me and makes me think I wouldn't even go there!
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I hesitated to add this to my post. But it's also the opinion of my vet too, who also carries out colic surgery.
 
As with Wagtail, we watched them battling to save my 4 year old, home bred 3rd generation, and we said go ahead with surgery, but knowing what we do about 'secondary' colics etc etc we said no second operation. Turned out to be worse than they imagined and op. took a long time but eventually she was up and back in her stable.

I had the call at 6.30 next morning to say she'd colicked badly again and following my instructions they had pts. We weren't certain how she'd have taken the box rest afterwards but insured or not felt we owed her the chance.

Would I do it again? Never.

If we ever go away the girl who looks after them has it in writing that if the vets say that horse needs surgery as only option, they are to pts, no matter which horse.
 
I have personally known three horses that have had successful colic surgery. Only one of the three had recurring mild colic afterwards. The other two continue to live normal horsey lives.
 
I don't believe this is something I would put my horse through - it would be at least a 3 hour journey for a start and with a horse in pain, I just don't feel it would be fair to them. This is only if there were no hold-ups - it would concern me if a road accident were to hold us up, what would we do then?

I'd rather let my horse go than to prolong the agony and possibly still lost my horse at the end.

Good luck to those who do choose it, but insurance payout or not, I wouldn't.
 
I had mare that had to have colic surgery in her teens , came through just fine a lived for 6 years afterwards. She had always been a coliky sort and did still occasionally get it after surgery but banamine sorted her out every time.

However I wouldn't put an older horse through it, older horses often get lipomic colic (sp?) and that just doesn't have a good prognosis.

I have a 12 year old who is fully retired and uninsured , if he got colic I wouldn't put him through the operation as he has had several operations already and I couldn't put him through it again. His last op, although minor compared to previous ones, knocked him for 6.

But as ever it's personal choice.
 
I have been in this situation, and decided with the vets that PTS was the best option, the insurance disagreed, and nothing either the vets or I could say that would change their minds. It was unreal. I was left with £600 of vets bill to cover.
 
I have been there, my boy was uninsured but the love of my life and only 9 years old. I battled with myself over surgery as I had always said I would never put a horse through it. Decided to give it a go as vets were very upbeat about his chances. As it was the surgery went fine but lost him in the recovery room when he couldn't get up afterwards.
 
jesstickle said:
I base my statement on the fact that the vet I know who does colic surgery doesn't think they'd put their own horse through it. That speaks volumes to me and makes me think I wouldn't even go there!
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Same here. Besides, usually, if the horse has been in some pain for some time even after painkillers, then sometimes it is already too late to save them; surgery needs to be done very quickly for a good chance of recovery. Four hours of pain/vet visits/painkillers then a decision made to transport to clinic how ever many miles away is not a good recipe for success.
 
It's very difficult, it's one thing thinking beforehand that you wouldn't have surgery and I can totally understand why people choose not to but when it is your own beloved horse colicing and the vet is saying that an operation could save their life it's very hard not to clutch at straws and dive into the operation.

I commented on the other thread about my experience with surgery but even though this was unsucessful I would probably do it again if I thought that the horse could handle the aftercare e.g. box rest and changing dressings etc without becoming too stressed or dangerous to handle.
 
Both the horse owning (or ex horse owning) vets I know wouldn't put their horses through colic surgery, but regulalry refer horses with surgical colic for surgery... Part of the issue is that round here the nearest place which takes enough referrals to be doing the regularly is minimum 2 hours by box (less by car, but that's not relevant.

Interestingly I read that the survival percentage after 12 months is about 50% (ignorning those that don't make it through the initial recovery or the surgery). Colic surgery has substantially worse survival than other GAs at it's longer, the horse isn't heathy on induction and I think the necessary position is less good for the nerves as well so they're more likely to be unable to get up.

I'm not a vet, but do read a few vet journals (and essays on topics included in the Equine Medicine certificate as I am chief proofreader and sense checker)
 
I had to make the decision a few years ago with a 8 year old mare. We allowed the surgery to go ahead, we were lucky it was done by my own practice a few miles away and although they only did 3 or 4 surgeries a year and didn't have the best facilities they did a good job. The horse went down with collitus a few days after which we thought may finish her but she survived.

She is now 15 and has never looked back, is eventing at Novice level with a young rider and never seriously coliced again. I would always take the advise of the vet and never put them through endless pain but I think young horses particularly deserve a chance and I would make sure if feasible they had it.
 
I'm surprised by the number of people who wouldn't even consider colic surgery even if they were insured. I'm not making any comment on whether that's right or wrong, just surprised.

I know two horses who have had colic surgery and bounced back to full health. One was my own, she sailed through the surgery and the box rest. The only complication was she developed compression laminitus from standing stil for too longl. She finished her box rest a little earlier and that soon sorted the laminitus out.

The other was seriously ill and had to have the maximum amount possible of intestine removed. He is now fully fit and ridden and is treated just like a normal horse. Touch wood, neither has had any colic over the years since.

I am lucky that Leahurst is only a 20 min drive. My girl isn't even bothered now by vet visits so I don't think she was too traumatised by it!
 
My pony had colic surgery five years ago. We are fortunate to be only 30 minutes from our vets "horspital" and she was being operated on to remove 14 feet of intestine within 4-5 hours of showing first signs of very painful colic. She came through without any complications except a touch of stress induced lamintis. Unfortunately she wasn't covered by her insurance - colic surgery was excluded after policy renewal at 16 years old, and she was 17. (Don't forget to read your small print!) She is now 22 and still going strong!
 
Knowing a little more about colic surgery these days, I WOULD put an insured horse through it, provided that the odds were in their favour - which is what you have to weigh up when treating any animal anyway.

I would however, give my vets permission to PTS in the middle of the OP if they felt that there was too much of the colon damaged for the horse to make a good and full recovery.
 
I would however, give my vets permission to PTS in the middle of the OP if they felt that there was too much of the colon damaged for the horse to make a good and full recovery.
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They would do this automatically. So no permission would be needed.
 
Happy Horse said:
Recovery rates from colic are not that bad at all. It depends on the age of the horse (as does all surgery) and the cause of the colic. If I were making the decision now and the horse was insured, I would be guided by the vet as to whether surgery was a viable option and the insurance company should also take the vets advice as being in the best interests of the horse.
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Rates are horrific. 23% dead within a week. 50% dead within 500 days, following complications causing even more pain. Check the "bankrupt" thread running now for the pointer to the research.
 
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