Colic surgery - would you? And Insurance

ihatework

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Depends on the horse.
2 of minni wouldn't put through surgery and would PTS, neither of those are insured for colic and both of those have concomitant medical conditions.

The competition horse would go to surgery. Just once though. The comp horse(s) are fully insured.
 

rara007

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If they were workable (I have retirees too) then yes I would assuming the prognosis was good. Most cases you do have an idea what you're going to find before you open them up and there's lots of prognostic indicators you can use. I think insurance is invaluable not for surgery, but for other expensive treatments that don't question anyone's ethics. Expense of treatment doesn't directly correlate to invasiveness/welfare of the horse. (But then I'm not in a position I could cough up unlimited amounts for an emergency procedure or treatment).
Mine also aren't insured for death so that wouldn't come into consideration about the pay out.
 
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BuzzyBea

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Having been through this very recently I wouldnt in all honesty do it again :(

We put our boy through surgery in January after a long discussion with our vet and the surgeon as they felt that long term recovery was pretty high.

It was established that he had IBD which was treated with steroids, diet change and any diet changes introduced slowly. Since then we have had daily stress that he will colic again, which he did from time to time.

In the end he coliced and eneded up with an impaction which the vet didn't feel was treatable after everything that he had been through plus the mega pain killers didn't touch the pain so PTS was the only option.

Insurance did not pay out but then they paid for nothing purely due to a totally unrelated colic episode 18 months previously where he stuffed himself in the field. They therfore left me having to pay £10k in total for surgery and related treatments, plus the cost of PTS plus they didn't pay the 5k he was insured for.

I will never insurewith NFU again and will never insure for loss of horse as they can so easily worm out of paying.
 

Polos Mum

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I have wondered though if the advice woud have been the same if our horses had been insured.

I often lie to the vets and tell them I'm not insured - I find you get better advice that way focused only on the welfare of the horse not £'s. Too many people spend an amazingly common £5k on scans/ checks/ MRI etc etc. only for the vet to then say chuck it in the field for a year and see! I have insurance on one as an emergency back up - but TBH I should cancel it really!
 

rara007

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I often lie to the vets and tell them I'm not insured - I find you get better advice that way focused only on the welfare of the horse not £'s.!

That does work both ways though and you can get advice and treatment that is not the absolute best but is a compromise when the £££ are a consideration....
 

tubby1

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Our 16yr old pony had surgery in April , He is currently very well and I don't regret it for one minute. He has other health issues but I felt we had to give him the chance. He had huge surgery with 2 impaction and a strangulating lymphoma. He is now currently enjoying a gentler but still active pace of life .
 
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I have always said that I would never, ever put one of mine through surgery. They never come back the same and it is far too much to put them through.

When my fell pony colicked he twisted his gut. He was 17yo, had never had a sick or sorry day in his life, had spent 3 months in the same field eating the same grass with the same field friends. Not ridden, not fed. No reason to colic what so ever but he did. I wouldn'tput him through surgery so I made the only decision I could for one of the best ponies I have ever had the pleasure of owning.
 

Tobiano

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I don't know, honestly. Recently I lost my not-yet-4 year old to equine grass sickness. There was 24 hours when we didn't know what was wrong. Before he was ill I had thought that I would not agree to colic surgery, but when he was ill I would have agreed to anything that would have given him a chance. In his case when the acute EGS was diagnosed the vet said there was no hope.

I'd feel the same if Bilbo (God forbid) was ill. I'd want to give him every chance, but I'd only have one round of surgery as I think after that the chances are so slim that you are more likely to be prolonging suffering.
 

Gift Horse

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Not just colic, but none of mine will have a GA. Vet knows this is my preference and if something is non-fixable without them having a GA, then its PTS.
Yes, they are dearly loved, but also my choice as to what to do, obviously armed with vet opinion.

I agree, this is the stance I take too.
 

Magnetic Sparrow

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I didn't go down the surgery route, my boy colicked at about 9am and was dead by 5pm. It's a hard decision and I will always wonder if it might have been something fixable. However both vets told me after I made the call to pts that they thought I did the right thing (or perhaps they always say that, either way?)

I have a youngster now and if she needed colic surgery I would give it serious consideration, but only for the next very few years.
 

twiggy2

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says on my horses file at both vets she is registered with 'no colic surgery' asit has on all the horses and ponies we have had over the last 15yrs, so no i would not put them through it
 

Boulty

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No I wouldn't as I don't think the horse would cope with the recovery period and I don't have cover that pays out on death for exactly these reasons
 

nosenseofdirection

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With my mare there would be no decision to make as she will not load at the best of times and will kick if in pain and will not tolerate box rest, the vet would not recommend surgery on those grounds alone! If I had a young horse with a relaxed personality and a bright future ahead, I would think about it, long and hard, but would not opt for surgery unless the prognosis was remarkably good. I have insurance but would rather go without a horse while I saved up for a new one than put a horse through pain it didn't need to suffer.
 

hollyandivy123

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for me at the end of the day age and other illness issues would come in to the colic surgery or not. as a ball park i wouldn't consider extended box resting anything over 20, it is a quality of life, 6 months in the bad leg might be good but the other three might go bad and like wise for surgery.

i would treat with pain killers and muscle relaxant for coli for the older horse, for a younger horse up to 10 then i would consider with the vet and this goes for extended box rest.

i feel sometimes we are over treating conditions which on reflection we shouldn't, as a horse owner I have a duty of care to ensure that the horse/animal within reason has the most comfortable pain free life as possible i can give them.

this is more directed at the people you give horse prosthetic legs etc
 

glamourpuss

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I always said I wouldn't but a friends horse had the surgery & her horse bounced back fantastically (although she was left with 3k bill not covered my her insurance) ....which makes me think I might for my young competition horse IF the vet agreed there was the poss of a good outcome.
The other 3 no, they wouldn't have it.

The relationship between Vets & insurance companies is a strange one. One of mine had suspensory & foot issues which didn't respond to the first lot of treatment. I have very honest vet, we talked through all of the available treatment options but he felt none would work so we decided it was shoes off & 12 months of Dr Green.
When I called the insurance company the girl on the phone said incredulously
'But you have over £3,000 left on this claim surely it's worth trying the treatments' 🙈
 

Amicus

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Current stats for still alive one year after the operation were, last time I looked, fewer than six out of ten. Many of the other three will have had a miserable time until someone called it a day. My vet told me, in confidence so they can't be named, that they do not think operating on colic cases is ethical.

I've known a four that have had it done. One recovered and went back to eventing. One died within two years of gut related problems. One died after two weeks. One died before it came home from hospital. I wouldn't put one of mine through it.

That's interesting to know I've known a couple of horses who after colic surgery were never stable again but also ones who as far as I know never had another issue but only 6/10 alive after a year is pretty grim even taking into account possible losses for other reasons.

The other GA stat I can remember is 1/100 healthy horses will die under anesthetic even for a routine procedure but then that's nothing compared to the colic stat.
 

ILuvCowparsely

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Another thread got me thinking. If your horse needed colic surgery, would you put them through it? And if you didn't, and chose PTS, would the insurance pay out for the death of the horse? Or would they insist that it was sent for surgery?
My donkey had compacted colic in may and vet said her only option was surgery to shift blockage, i said yes go ahead as at 25 she was young in donkey years (waits for the negative comments)
 

Puddleduck

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My mare had colic surgery as a 13 yr old. Fortunately we were a couple of miles from Leahurst. They took her straight in and operated. She had an epiploic foramen entrapment which has the lowest post op survival rate. She lost 17 ft of small intestine as it had died due to the entrapment.
Rehab was a bit up and down for the first few weeks, 6 months later she bounced back to normal and went on to a long and successful dressage career.
Leahurst tracked her progress for a number of years as part of a post op survival study.
She's 25 now and sadly is losing her battle with cushings :(
Would I do the op again? Yes, as my horses are special to me, they are part of my family and I would always want to give them the best chance unless the prognosis was a very slim chance of success.
 

Amicus

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My donkey had compacted colic in may and vet said her only option was surgery to shift blockage, i said yes go ahead as at 25 she was young in donkey years (waits for the negative comments)

Did you have a good outcome, has she now had a happy summer?
I don't see that age should be the only consideration and success should be celebrated not berated.
 

ILuvCowparsely

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Did you have a good outcome, has she now had a happy summer?
I don't see that age should be the only consideration and success should be celebrated not berated.
No sadly they put lots of fluid directly into the stomach by injecting it in because they don't like to cut the stomach open, they used diet Coke to try and fiz up to break the blockage up, The following weekend they let out to Graze for a little while and then the Monday morning when They went in they couldn't even get the camera into the stomach it was completely full and at risk of rupturing so we had to let her go to sleep. Her stomach had stopped working it wasn't pushing anything through into the intestines ��

I miss her so much
 
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Amicus

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No sadly they put lots of fluid directly into the stomach by injecting it in because they don't like to cut the stomach open, they used diet Coke to try and fiz up to break the blockage up, The following weekend they let out to Graze for a little while and then the Monday morning when They went in they couldn't even get the camera into the stomach it was completely full and at risk of rupturing so we had to let her go to sleep. Her stomach had stopped working it wasn't pushing anything through into the intestines ��

I miss her so much

Very sorry to hear that HGA my sympathies.
 

Laurac13

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My old horse of a lifetime had colic surgery in 2005 I had owned him 10 years he was my best friend aged 18 yrs and was his first colic episode, after 2 vets visits first thing in the morning he was rushed to new market for urgent surgery it all happened so quickly Newmarket hospital gave him an 80 percent chance of good outcome he was operated on that afternoon and I visited him the next morning a Saturday when i left him he didn't want me to leave him and kept trying to follow me out of his stable I shall never forget that last look he have me he really did look into my soul he knew more than me, I kissed him goodbye and said I would see him tomorrow, on the way home just 30 mins later I got a call from Newmarket saying he had collapsed and they needed to pts immediately I was devastated I couldn't be with him in his time of need and if still upsets me now he wasn't insured but I would have paid Anything to fix him would I do the same again I really don't know I now have a youngster with his who life ahead of him but I don't think many who are operated on make a total recovery and it's such a massive operation and recovery I never want to have to make that choice again I so wish my old boy could have been pts at home with me by his side instead of in hospital with strangers 😢
 

Crazy_cat_lady

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I personally wouldn't with my boy as he's 18 now and very nervy with new places and surroundings, won't travel and wouldn't cope with the hospitalisation and all the procedures involved. I'd try the non surgical but if they said he needed surgery I'd say no more. Not sure what would happen re insurance etc.
With a different horse I'd have to have a serious think as it's such a major op I'd need to have an idea of the chances of them being more high risk in the future as I wouldn't want to put them through all that if they were going to be high risk in the future.
 

hollyandivy123

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"colic" is a general term for something that can multiple conditions from impaction, to gas, to twisted gut were part of the gut "dies" off due to hypoxia, toxins.................etc etc

this means not all colics, surgeries and horses can be treated the same with the same outcome
 

Speedyfluff

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My old horse of a lifetime had colic surgery in 2005 I had owned him 10 years he was my best friend aged 18 yrs and was his first colic episode, after 2 vets visits first thing in the morning he was rushed to new market for urgent surgery it all happened so quickly Newmarket hospital gave him an 80 percent chance of good outcome he was operated on that afternoon and I visited him the next morning a Saturday when i left him he didn't want me to leave him and kept trying to follow me out of his stable I shall never forget that last look he have me he really did look into my soul he knew more than me, I kissed him goodbye and said I would see him tomorrow, on the way home just 30 mins later I got a call from Newmarket saying he had collapsed and they needed to pts immediately I was devastated I couldn't be with him in his time of need and if still upsets me now he wasn't insured but I would have paid Anything to fix him would I do the same again I really don't know I now have a youngster with his who life ahead of him but I don't think many who are operated on make a total recovery and it's such a massive operation and recovery I never want to have to make that choice again I so wish my old boy could have been pts at home with me by his side instead of in hospital with strangers ��

This must have been so devastating for you. I am so sorry.
 

flaxen

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I have done although lost her to colic 6 months later, but her previous anaesthetic and recovery made us decide not to operate again. I would go to surgery again if my new pony required it although I would have her referred to my friend who is an internal medicine specialist at glasgow and go with his opinion on whether to continue with surgery or not wake her up.
 

AandK

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For me it would depend on numerous factors, age, temperament, other medical conditions etc. Both mine I would not put through colic surgery.
My 25yo mare is too old and not insured, I'd have to let her go.
My 18yo gelding, whilst still insured for colic, had a GA last month for an annular ligament op, he had a seizure coming round from the GA and vets have advised that I should be v wary of putting him under again unless it's an emergency. As much as it pains me to say, I think I'd have to let him go too.
If the horse was young, healthy and likely to cope with box rest then I'd asses with vet (type of colic, chance of recovery etc) and go from there.
 
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