Colic surgery - would you? Have you?

[Apercrumbie]

Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc.
I know several horses who had colic surgery and recovered fully. They continue(d) to live as normal a life as previously. I've also known a 45 year old donkey who came through colic surgery fine! (In his case, I'd probably have called it a day, but he did recover well and had a few more years.)

But most of us do know the situation exactly - we know our horses, we know their age, their medical history and we know how they respond to certain situations like box rest, horsepital, different medications etc. No one has said on this thread that colic surgery never works, they have said that they wouldn't put their horse through it. You saying that they haven't properly considered it is a sweeping statement and involves knowledge about their horse and their situation that you couldn't possibly know.

 

[be positive]

Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc.
I know several horses who had colic surgery and recovered fully. They continue(d) to live as normal a life as previously. I've also known a 45 year old donkey who came through colic surgery fine! (In his case, I'd probably have called it a day, but he did recover well and had a few more years.)

I think it is a decision that can be made before you actually need to, in the event of your horse having a serious colic it can be very difficult to make an informed choice especially if the vet wants to send it in, any delay can make a difference so it must sometimes be easier to go with the vets and send them in, if you have already made your decision it is easier to stick to it and not be swayed by an optimistic vet.

I have, as already posted, sent one in and gone along with it with a very good result so feel more than able to make an informed judgement as to what I will do with other horses in my care, my youngest horse would cope with box rest with me but will not be sent in for treatment, for anything, due to how he suffered last time he went to hospital even though it would be somewhere else it is not fair to subject him to a possible repeat.

Every case is different but it is the owners prerogative to make a choice based on the facts if that choice is made to not send a horse in it does not make them less caring than an owner that sends a horse in, it is not about point scoring but doing what feels right for the individual.

 

[palterwell]

I did 4 years ago and I would do it again. A lot depends on the horse, age ,temperament and ability to cope with rehab.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I think it is a decision that can be made before you actually need to, in the event of your horse having a serious colic it can be very difficult to make an informed choice especially if the vet wants to send it in, any delay can make a difference so it must sometimes be easier to go with the vets and send them in, if you have already made your decision it is easier to stick to it and not be swayed by an optimistic vet.

Agree completely with this. It seems that my vet practice now wants colic sufferers referred straight into Leahurst if the colic doesn't settle after a single visit, they prefer not to come out a second time to reassess. Whilst I can see their point, as surgery has a much better chance of success before the horse gets too sick, it can take courage to explain that you are declining surgery. It's easy to get caught up and railroaded into a decision that you're not happy with.

My take on colic is that I would take a horse with an impaction or similar to my local horsepital for full medical support (and that can be pricey, too), but not agree to surgery.

 

[Enfys]

II find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it" has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.

It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it. Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***

Words fail me, what a pious, condescending, and hypocritical little person you are.

 

[Enfys]

Colic surgery -

would you? Now, knowing what I do now, no.

Have you? Yes, Rossdales. New Years day 1991. 5 year old mare. I had her until she was 17. No colic associated problems ever. Went on to have 4 foals, race, do 50 mile endurance and hunted hard for 3 years.

I have never insured my horses. I pay as I go.

 

[ycbm]

Actually, I sort of agree with some of the above statement - it takes careful consideration for each and every individual situation. Not that every horse should undergo colic surgery, but I don't understand why anybody would make a firm decision against surgery ahead of time. You can't possibly know what the situation will be should the question arise. I would arm myself with all the information possible, but still reserve the decision for the moment when it has to be made, depending on the type of colic, time that has passed, vet's opinion on the horse's chances etc.

For me it does not take careful consideration of each and every individual situation. I have looked at the survival rates at one year, the complication rates, the re-operation rates, and I have made a decision now, in the cold light of day that none of those statistics justify me putting a horse through colic surgery. I think I'm much better placed to make that decision now than on the spur of the moment pressurised into an 'it's now or never' decision by a vet with a horse in agony on the end of a lead rope.

 

[supsup]

But most of us do know the situation exactly - we know our horses, we know their age, their medical history and we know how they respond to certain situations like box rest, horsepital, different medications etc. No one has said on this thread that colic surgery never works, they have said that they wouldn't put their horse through it. You saying that they haven't properly considered it is a sweeping statement and involves knowledge about their horse and their situation that you couldn't possibly know.

Fine, agreed. But the original question was quite general - would you put a horse through colic surgery? No specifics about the individual. Cost is mentioned, but not the horse's age or condition. If you're talking about a specific individual horse that has other issues, you're already making a case by case decision. I was responding more to the people who state categorically "I'd never put a horse through surgery", followed by "I've seen colic surgeries fail". The fact that some colic surgeries fail (for cases that we don't know any details of) to me is not a good argument for not considering it for another individual.

 

[ycbm]

Fine, agreed. But the original question was quite general - would you put a horse through colic surgery? No specifics about the individual. Cost is mentioned, but not the horse's age or condition. If you're talking about a specific individual horse that has other issues, you're already making a case by case decision. I was responding more to the people who state categorically "I'd never put a horse through surgery", followed by "I've seen colic surgeries fail". The fact that some colic surgeries fail (for cases that we don't know any details of) to me is not a good argument for not considering it for another individual.

Do you know the survival and complication statistics? That's what I base my 'I'll never put a horse through it' decision on. And until those improve a lot more, that's what my decision will remain.

1 in 5 of Leahurst patients don't even survive to travel home.

 

[EQUIDAE]

One that beat the odds

http://www.kickondot.com/greateaves-issac/4538211079

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Just considering changing insurance companies, and the one I am considering offer vets fees of £3k per incident - now I've had horses long enough to know that it is scarily easy to rack up that much in vets fees

The one expense which came to mind first was colic surgery, but I've always suspected that if it came to that I wouldn't go ahead and would have the horse PTS instead.

I don't wish to upset anyone, that is very much a personal view, but I just wondered how many people had elected to go ahead with colic surgery? Do you feel now that it was the right choice? I suppose what I am getting at is whether I am being too narrow minded not considering it.

I recently had to do similar for my donkey who had an impaction and they had to inject the stomach to try break up the mass. Sadly after a week of tubing and draining the stomach filled up so much that the camera would not go in. I had no option then...........

I know others are against but if this was my horse of a life time etc and this would save her or give her a chance to life then I would do it, being guided by my vet of course

 

[ihatework]

I would always put a reasonably young horse that was sound and healthy and in full work through the Op once, and such horses are heavily insured.

Any horse with co-conditions or retired would be PTS.
An unbroken one I'm not sure, would probably depend on how much I liked it.

 

[Enfys]

One that beat the odds

[

Good to see

 

[chaps89]

Current horse no, she has 3 or 4 other health conditions at the age of 6 so I would be inclined to call it a day at that point.
A fit, healthy, young horse I probably would, dependant on vet advice for recovery/recurrence.
I would say tho that I have had 3 claims to date all over £3k for non-emergency problems so I would be wanting a bit more cover personally.
I have £4k vet fee cover but I top it up with a benefit for non-vets fees (hospitalisation and transport charges) and alternative therapies (remedial shoeing, physio etc) meaning I have £5500 cover total- both those extra benefits came in handy last year so it's worth seeing how the the £3k is made up/what extras may be available to add on if necessary.

 

[EventingMum]

I've been faced with this decision once, the horse was in agony, I've never seen one so bad despite pain relief. Once we got to the vet hospital they decided the only option was surgery but I decided against it. He was exhausted, had been through so much already and in all honesty he would have been a nightmare for after care - he hated vets, panicked at the drop of a hat and didn't cope with pain. His pm showed it to be EFE so the prognosis wouldn't have been good which vindicated my decision. If I was faced with this decision again I think it would depend on the horse in question. I may consider it with a young horse, I really don't think I would put an older horse through it although I do know one who recovered well age 15.

I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer here and certainly an owner shouldn't be criticised or subjected to nasty comments whatever they decide; pts or operating - either way they are trying to end the horse's pain.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I did, and I would certainly consider it again, despite a difficult and uncertain recovery which is ongoing.
We are nearly 6 months from surgery and my mare has had vets consider PTS 5 times. Each time the vet has pulled back from recommending it despite initially suggesting it to me.
I find anyone who posts "I wouldn't put one of my horses through it" has either not considered it properly, isnt insured and cant afford it, or doesnt care for his/her horses enough.
This decision takes extraordinarily careful consideration. My dear little mare is now being worked, will start canter this week, is still on steroids and may not yet make a full recovery, if any recovery at all. But she has never (apart from when colicking) been unhappy or miserable and is enjoying life. So it is good we have come this far.
It actually angers me when holier than thou folks say they would never put their horses through it. Because I dont think they have properly considered it or the alternatives, or they dont give a s***

why get angry it's a matter opinion I am not angry with you for doing it, it's your choice and your business, there is no need to come on here and suggest those of us that would not put a horse through colic surgery don't give a s*it about our horses that is just downright insulting you don't know any of us personally so keep your angry thoughts to yourself.

 

[ycbm]

One that beat the odds

http://www.kickondot.com/greateaves-issac/4538211079

Lovely

Actually the odds were in his favour. Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way.

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.

 

[{97702}]

Lovely

Actually the odds were in his favour. Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way.

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.

Thanks for the stats, that makes interesting reading as indeed does the whole thread. For my present horse, the thread hasn't changed my mind - he is 9 next month so not old at all, but he worries a lot about life, doesn't like the vets or a change in his routine, I couldn't see him coping with 4 months of rehab.

 

[Jnhuk]

Lovely

Actually the odds were in his favour. Current best statistics that I can find for 2014 are that a little less than two in three return to their previous level of performance. Most of the other one in three die, one in five at the hospital, and the rest some time in the year after coming home.

Recovery is a long process with four months box rest according to the vets I have read up on, and many of the two in three who survive and recover their athletic function will have complications along the way.

To put that in figures, if a big hospital operated on 250 a year, 200 will live to go home.

40 will be put down at home some time in the next year due to complications.

160 will return to work, most of them at the same level as before they got ill.

All figures approximate.

I thought people would like to know the up to date stats. I hope it helps.

Good luck to anyone going through it at the moment.

Are there stats for the different types of surgical colic?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

About a year ago, my vet advised me that my mare was too big and too old to even consider colic surgery. Fortunately she made a full recovery from impaction colic, after 3 vet visits in 36 hrs. I do not think that it is any-one else's business if an owner decides not to put a horse through the stress of travelling, surgery, a stay in a strange place and extended box-rest.

 

[JenJ]

Haven't read most of the posts - still too raw - but have glanced at some, and just wanted to thank all that have posted saying 'no'.

Mine colicked last November, I'd always sworn never to do surgery, but my resolve was severely tested that day. I was called back to the hospital later that day, having been told we'd give her 48 hours to see if she 'fixed' with medicine, and by the time I got there I think she was beyond help and I let her go. But I have still got that little voice saying 'what if I'd just said yes to surgery'. Reading these has helped ease my 'guilt', so thank you all x

 

[ycbm]

Are there stats for the different types of surgical colic?

Yes there are, and they differ hugely, but you don't normally know until after you are committed to surgery (and often not until the belly is open) whether your horse has a type that it is very likely to live through or a type it's very likely to die a nasty death from. So for me, deciding whether to go for an operation or not, the average statistics are all that matter.

 

[Boulty]

Current horse probably not no. I just don't think he would cope with the extended box rest and we'd end up killing each other (for reference he tried to run me over the other weekend cos he'd been coming in on a night (out during day I might add) for a whole 5 days and was fed up of it...) he also weaves and boxwalks when stressed and isn't above attempts at door climbing and he needs specific circumstances to settle in a small paddock on his own without running up and down the fence... he has other issues that require work and movement too and also has cushings so at increased risk of prolonged recovery, infections and other complications and I do honestly think the stress of surgery and recovery would be highly likely to trigger laminitis of some form given some of his history

 

[Birker2020]

I wouldn't because its not fair on my horse, he would need a considerable amount of box rest and would stiffen up as he has arthritis and just go to pot. couldn't because I am not covered on insurance for this, and even if I was wouldn't put him through it for the reason above.
I also wouldn't because I've heard many stories of horses that don't fare well afterwards.

 

[Murphy88]

Thanks for the stats, that makes interesting reading as indeed does the whole thread. For my present horse, the thread hasn't changed my mind - he is 9 next month so not old at all, but he worries a lot about life, doesn't like the vets or a change in his routine, I couldn't see him coping with 4 months of rehab.

Levrier - I think this is the best way to look at it, regardless of surgery success/prognosis etc it has to come down to the individual horse and owner. When I go out to a horse with colic, I will always ask people at the first visit what their thoughts are on surgery so that they can have a chance to think about it (and hopefully it won't come to that point!) and I would never judge an owner for deciding not to go for it.

For my own horses, one has many health problems and the other two are 24 and 28 this year, so realistically I probably wouldn't. However, if I had a younger horse I would have absolutely no hesitation in doing colic surgery. Now I do have the advantage that as a vet, I would go into surgery and then depending on what they found would have a good enough idea of prognosis to decide whether to PTS on the table.

I have seen hundreds of horses operated on for colic at my previous job in Kentucky; some broodmares will get colic every year and come back in for 2nd/3rd surgeries and I know some stallions that are up to 4 surgeries. However the vast majority of horses survive, go home within a few days and never look back. The other interesting thing is post-op management - over there, unless the horse had a problem with the wound e.g. infection, then they would be turned out from a few days post-op, initially for 1 hour at a time and building up from there. Standard post-op instructions were 2 weeks box rest or small paddock rest (1/4 acre size), 4 weeks slightly bigger paddock rest on their own (+/- foal), 4 weeks paddock rest with a friend then back into main herd. They don't like to properly box rest unless they have to because for the broodmares it's not good for the foal at foot. If I had one of my own operated on this is what I would do as long as their incision was ok.

 

[ycbm]

Your definition of 'the vast majority' is not the same as mine, Murphy88. Two in three is certainly a significant majority, and it's twice as many as die, but for me, one in three not surviving to one year is not the same as saying the vast majority survive.

I absolutely agree that this is the owners choice, guided by their vet. There is no wrong and right on this one.

 

[luckyoldme]

Haven't read most of the posts - still too raw - but have glanced at some, and just wanted to thank all that have posted saying 'no'.

Mine colicked last November, I'd always sworn never to do surgery, but my resolve was severely tested that day. I was called back to the hospital later that day, having been told we'd give her 48 hours to see if she 'fixed' with medicine, and by the time I got there I think she was beyond help and I let her go. But I have still got that little voice saying 'what if I'd just said yes to surgery'. Reading these has helped ease my 'guilt', so thank you all x

my horse is in his twenties, i have allready decided that if it comes down to an operation I will call it a day.
I think its really easy to say that now i really hope im not faced with the same descision as you, and if it comes to it i hope i have the courage to see it through. Just because its the right thing to do ..it doesn t make it easier.
guilt is a pain in the backside, sticking its nose in where its got no business going.

 

[Enfys]

I have seen hundreds of horses operated on for colic at my previous job in Kentucky; ... The other interesting thing is post-op management - over there, unless the horse had a problem with the wound e.g. infection, then they would be turned out from a few days post-op, initially for 1 hour at a time and building up from there. Standard post-op instructions were 2 weeks box rest or small paddock rest (1/4 acre size), 4 weeks slightly bigger paddock rest on their own (+/- foal), 4 weeks paddock rest with a friend then back into main herd. They don't like to properly box rest unless they have to because for the broodmares it's not good for the foal at foot. If I had one of my own operated on this is what I would do as long as their incision was ok.

This is interesting to read a vets side of things thank you. I have been working out the time line with my mare, as I remember we had her out and picking at grass very soon, then gradual built up to turn out, she was already on a year out for a blown tendon anyway. Rossdales, told us, and I remember being horrified at the time, to get her out to grass, then put her in foal. She was covered in the May, 5 months after her op.i didn't bring her back into work until the colt was 6 months old, so she had almost 2 years off after her op.

 

[Murphy88]

YCBM - at the hospital I was at I would say the percentages were significantly better than 2/3, but that is a product of working in a place where the majority of horses come from within a 30 minute radius and having extremely knowledgable farm staff who know when to wait for the farm vet to get there, and when to just put the horse on the trailer and get it to surgery. The guys out there who have managed broodmares for a long time know what's surgical and what they might be able to manage medically. Unfortunately living over here, the majority of us (myself included), have got at least an hours journey to a surgical facility and this is a major factor in survival. This is why if surgery is an option, that vets will push to refer early, because each extra visit prior to referral is a lower chance of success.

Enfys - broodmares are a tough bunch, most I saw were at some stage of pregnancy and if not then were covered shortly after surgery. I have done 15 day preg checks on mares that have been operated on days earlier and they go on to have normal foals!

 

[ArcticFox]

would you put through surgery? there is no right or wrong answer. its personal preference. However what people decide to do is their opinion.

there are many different types of colic, some that can be diagnosed before going to theatre to give you a rough idea of what they think they will find. Ultimately to find out if you would opt for surgery isn't a question you can answer until you are faced with a horse standing in front of you colicing.

My 7yo horse had a dorsal entrapment in 2013, he was going to go for surgery but his medical management fixed him. he hasn't colic'd since, however he is a walking disaster (has had spavin, broken tooth, sliced heel, cellulitis, septic hock since then) so if he did colic again and needed surgery I would not put him through it.

My other horse is on loan, he is 21yo, I suspect if he colic'd he would not go for surgery but that is a discussion I would have with his owners.

My 10yo horse - if he colic'd I would take him through to be worked up. depending on what they find or are suspicious of, I would make a decision then. He is insured, would cope with box rest really well, and I would put him through surgery if it felt right to do so.

I don't think anyone should beat themselves up for whatever decision they make with their horses. It is your horse and your decision and no one should judge anyone for it.