Colic surgery

[Michelle1109]

Hi all

So part of the due diligence of my yard ( which I think is great)
They have asked us the following

"In the event your horse has colic and surgery is required to save the horses life we need to know how you would wish to proceed in the event that the vet cannot contact you. Therefore would you please be able to put in writing the following and send back with urgency so we can pop onto your file.

Emergency contact numbers of someone who is authorized to make a decision for you

And

If no contact can be made by the vet with yourself or the emergency numbers provided and a decision needs to be made immediately which option you would prefer, surgery or euthanasia."

Wow!! What a hard call to make
My horse is 20 (nearly 21) he is a big old WB, but extremely healthy and could prob recover BUT
Recovery would be tough and I feel after such an event at his age he would be retired, I live in dubai and we don't have retirement facilities here

My practical and practical caring side would op for him going to sleep

My heart would say keep him

What would others do in this situation ?
Please note I live in dubai
Summers are brutal 45-50" heat
No retirement plans /facilities
No green open pastures

While healthy this is manageable, after a serious surgery..... not so manageable

Thoughts?

 

[Red-1]

Sounds like you know the answer. I like that the yard is so organised.

I had a horse I sent to a friend to look after while I was on holiday. I put into writing what I would or would not want treatment for in an emergency. It just made it clearer for her in case.

 

[be positive]

It is the one question I ask my liveries that causes the most thought, having had a horse go through surgery and live a normal life afterwards I am fairly well placed to advise my clients and my thoughts are a) can they afford the surgery and after care, if insured that is covered in part, b) is the horse viable, a tough one but has to be considered, an old horse with it's best years behind it is probably best pts for many reasons not least being that after surgery even if all goes well retirement may be the best option, c) think of yourself not just the horse, he doesn't know what is about to happen whichever way you go and sometimes while it is hard to let go it is far better for both the owner and the horse.

Of mine only one may opt for surgery, insured, first horse, still young, will be fine on box rest etc, the others are either older or not insured so finances do have to be considered, if it actually happens they may change their minds depending on the circumstances and prognosis.

 

[SEL]

I have on record with my vet that neither of mine are to go through colic surgery. After an awful incident last year where the vets needed to PTS a horse on the yard, but couldn't get hold of the owner (it died in my arms - not peacefully) I also have on my records that they can make that call if their professional view is that it is needed.

Well done for your yard for being so organised. It's a horrible thing to consider but so much better to make plans when they're well instead of running around panicking when they're sick

 

[Michelle1109]

Thanks to all of you for sharing the advice - he is my first horse but I do like to think what's best for him (not me)

And as hard as it is I will opt for PTS (not sure the yard owner will like it as it used to be her horse)
But with no retirement here and the weather conditions in summer it's really a no brainier unfortunately

And my yard even though in dubai is awesome

 

[be positive]

Don't forget most colics are resolved with veterinary treatment and require no surgery, if your horse has not previously suffered from colic there is every chance he never will.

 

[Michelle1109]

Don't forget most colics are resolved with veterinary treatment and require no surgery, if your horse has not previously suffered from colic there is every chance he never will.

Your name says it all!!

Thanks for positive reply

He never has touch wood. I hope it never comes to it

 

[pepsimaxrock]

Hmmm.

There are lots of posts on this thread promoting the view that "I would never put my horse through colic surgery" without ever stating why.
I could easily have joined this gang. They sound like (I'm sure they are) people who really care about their horses and dont ever want them to suffer, so yes, I could easily have signed up to something like this which said, that if my horse colics and it is likely to need surgery then please don't, its the end of the road, its too traumatic etc etc
I am of course talking about young to middle aged, healthy horses.
Mine was a middle aged (12yo) horse of a lifetime when she colicked in the field 2 summers ago. She's a greedy sod and just couldnt stop eating the sweet summer grass which blew her up and caused a left dorsal displacement of her hindgut. I was at work - only 30 miles (an hour) away - but in an "important" meeting , listening to my phone bleep bleep bleeping and couldnt answer. Eventually raced out of the room and yes, its the yard, and yes my lovely mare is very sick with colic, she keeps going down they have tried everything but its possibly surgical, can I get there, quickly?

If I'd signed that agreement she would have been PTS.

I got there and she was still bad we hitched up my trailer and off we went (thankfully the referral hospital was only 20 miles away, closer than work lol).
She had successful surgery but she has had a long and extraordinarily difficult recovery. She now has IBS and needs careful management which my vet and I are now honing. However she is jumping and eventing again, we are getting our best ever dressage scores, she has a lovely set of horsey friends and a fab full livery groom who also exercises her when I cant. She is uncomplicated apart from this and totally happy.

So many times in this period she was near to being PTS every time the vet and I both withdrew from the imminent act. Please dont make this sort of decision before you are in a position to actually come face to face with the realities of the condition, that sadly, IS in the heat of the moment, and faced with the stark reality of your choice, your decisions could be different.

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Hmmm.

There are lots of posts on this thread promoting the view that "I would never put my horse through colic surgery" without ever stating why.
I could easily have joined this gang. They sound like (I'm sure they are) people who really care about their horses and dont ever want them to suffer, so yes, I could easily have signed up to something like this which said, that if my horse colics and it is likely to need surgery then please don't, its the end of the road, its too traumatic etc etc
I am of course talking about young to middle aged, healthy horses.
Mine was a middle aged (12yo) horse of a lifetime when she colicked in the field 2 summers ago. She's a greedy sod and just couldnt stop eating the sweet summer grass which blew her up and caused a left dorsal displacement of her hindgut. I was at work - only 30 miles (an hour) away - but in an "important" meeting , listening to my phone bleep bleep bleeping and couldnt answer. Eventually raced out of the room and yes, its the yard, and yes my lovely mare is very sick with colic, she keeps going down they have tried everything but its possibly surgical, can I get there, quickly?

If I'd signed that agreement she would have been PTS.

I got there and she was still bad we hitched up my trailer and off we went (thankfully the referral hospital was only 20 miles away, closer than work lol).
She had successful surgery but she has had a long and extraordinarily difficult recovery. She now has IBS and needs careful management which my vet and I are now honing. However she is jumping and eventing again, we are getting our best ever dressage scores, she has a lovely set of horsey friends and a fab full livery groom who also exercises her when I cant. She is uncomplicated apart from this and totally happy.

So many times in this period she was near to being PTS every time the vet and I both withdrew from the imminent act. Please dont make this sort of decision before you are in a position to actually come face to face with the realities of the condition, that sadly, IS in the heat of the moment, and faced with the stark reality of your choice, your decisions could be different.

Yep my friends horse had left dorsal displacement twice and got over it with vets treatment and lots of lunging, she said he was in an awful lot of pain the second time. He was aged 15/16 the first time and around 19 the second time.It was her persistence in the lunging for hours and the vets persistence in the tubing over three days and rectal examinations that really paid off. So it really is a case of see what can be done, sometimes they can look like there dying when they are not. Obviously if a vet makes a call : pts or surgery it is clear cut.

 

[Michen]

Agreed. I always said no colic surgery. But when faced with either putting Basil down or operating I opted for surgery. His surgery went perfectly but he broke a leg in recovery, the leg was compromised before the surgery. I'd do it again.

Hmmm.

There are lots of posts on this thread promoting the view that "I would never put my horse through colic surgery" without ever stating why.
I could easily have joined this gang. They sound like (I'm sure they are) people who really care about their horses and dont ever want them to suffer, so yes, I could easily have signed up to something like this which said, that if my horse colics and it is likely to need surgery then please don't, its the end of the road, its too traumatic etc etc
I am of course talking about young to middle aged, healthy horses.
Mine was a middle aged (12yo) horse of a lifetime when she colicked in the field 2 summers ago. She's a greedy sod and just couldnt stop eating the sweet summer grass which blew her up and caused a left dorsal displacement of her hindgut. I was at work - only 30 miles (an hour) away - but in an "important" meeting , listening to my phone bleep bleep bleeping and couldnt answer. Eventually raced out of the room and yes, its the yard, and yes my lovely mare is very sick with colic, she keeps going down they have tried everything but its possibly surgical, can I get there, quickly?

If I'd signed that agreement she would have been PTS.

I got there and she was still bad we hitched up my trailer and off we went (thankfully the referral hospital was only 20 miles away, closer than work lol).
She had successful surgery but she has had a long and extraordinarily difficult recovery. She now has IBS and needs careful management which my vet and I are now honing. However she is jumping and eventing again, we are getting our best ever dressage scores, she has a lovely set of horsey friends and a fab full livery groom who also exercises her when I cant. She is uncomplicated apart from this and totally happy.

So many times in this period she was near to being PTS every time the vet and I both withdrew from the imminent act. Please dont make this sort of decision before you are in a position to actually come face to face with the realities of the condition, that sadly, IS in the heat of the moment, and faced with the stark reality of your choice, your decisions could be different.

 

[AandK]

Hmmm.

There are lots of posts on this thread promoting the view that "I would never put my horse through colic surgery" without ever stating why.
I could easily have joined this gang. They sound like (I'm sure they are) people who really care about their horses and dont ever want them to suffer, so yes, I could easily have signed up to something like this which said, that if my horse colics and it is likely to need surgery then please don't, its the end of the road, its too traumatic etc etc
I am of course talking about young to middle aged, healthy horses.
Mine was a middle aged (12yo) horse of a lifetime when she colicked in the field 2 summers ago. She's a greedy sod and just couldnt stop eating the sweet summer grass which blew her up and caused a left dorsal displacement of her hindgut. I was at work - only 30 miles (an hour) away - but in an "important" meeting , listening to my phone bleep bleep bleeping and couldnt answer. Eventually raced out of the room and yes, its the yard, and yes my lovely mare is very sick with colic, she keeps going down they have tried everything but its possibly surgical, can I get there, quickly?

If I'd signed that agreement she would have been PTS.

I got there and she was still bad we hitched up my trailer and off we went (thankfully the referral hospital was only 20 miles away, closer than work lol).
She had successful surgery but she has had a long and extraordinarily difficult recovery. She now has IBS and needs careful management which my vet and I are now honing. However she is jumping and eventing again, we are getting our best ever dressage scores, she has a lovely set of horsey friends and a fab full livery groom who also exercises her when I cant. She is uncomplicated apart from this and totally happy.

So many times in this period she was near to being PTS every time the vet and I both withdrew from the imminent act. Please dont make this sort of decision before you are in a position to actually come face to face with the realities of the condition, that sadly, IS in the heat of the moment, and faced with the stark reality of your choice, your decisions could be different.

Probably because the OP has a much older horse (almost 21) and lives in Dubai! OP may have got differing answers if she had a younger horse and lived in the UK...

I have two veterans (20 and 27) and neither of them would be put through colic surgery. If they were much younger, then yes I would try if the vet thought it was an option.

 

[Michelle1109]

Probably because the OP has a much older horse (almost 21) and lives in Dubai! OP may have got differing answers if she had a younger horse and lived in the UK...

I have two veterans (20 and 27) and neither of them would be put through colic surgery. If they were much younger, then yes I would try if the vet thought it was an option.

Agreed I am the OP and you are right, it's all about what's best. For the horse at the time

 

[Orangehorse]

Colic doesn't always mean surgery, they can recover with conservative treatment. Just heard of a local hospital that had 6 colic cases in a couple of weekends ago. The horse I know didn't need surgery, although she was in hospital, they treated her and did their best to avoid, even when she was looking very poorly, they went on blood tests to see if she was as bad as she indicated. Luckily not and is now 100% well. Incidentally, the hospital asked for £1,000 up front.

 

[AandK]

Agreed I am the OP and you are right, it's all about what's best. For the horse at the time

It's a tough call to make, and I hate writing that I would not put either of mine through it as I love them dearly and they have been in the family for such a long time (20yo for 15yrs and 27yo for 20yrs!).

It really is about what is right for that horse, taking in to consideration all factors (health, temperament, location, age, etc). If I were in your shoes I would be signing to say no colic ops, but here's hoping it never comes to that! And as above, not all colic needs surgical intervention, my 20yo spent 8 days at the vets in 2010 with colic, but luckily didn't need surgery (was touch and go for a while though!).

 

[Jnhuk]

I think this is one of those decisions that you may have an idea what you would do but when it happens it is just such a shock to suddenly find yourself in the position and the unreality of it. So how on earth you make the right decision ahead of time on a bit of paper without some of the information that makes you happy that you have made the right call, I don't know. Of course, if your horse is older and already has other health issues then it may be an easy decision but after my experience I wouldn't know what to put. I don't think I would be able to give a black and white answer.

I was put in this situation last year with my 14 year old gelding who had never colicked to my knowledge before. I have always thought I wouldn't go with colic surgery. On the drive through to the vets, I discussed things with a knowledgeable friend so I was willing to consider it if given my lad was given a reasonable chance. If the vets had given me a more positive outcome following further tests, I probably would have considered it. However, I was advised from their experience of this type of surgical colic (EFE) , outcome was poor and even if went to surgery, vet said from his experience that when they saw the actual damage that they would recommend PTS on the operating table. My vets were brilliant and I am lucky that they are an equine practice and hospital.

PM showed this to be the case.

Horrid situation, such a shock and heartbreaking but at the same time, I just knew it was the right decision to have him PTS but how you can be comfortable with this decision when you not got all the advice and seen what going I don't know.

My horse was lucky in the fact that I was there with him the instant it started so he got prompt vet attention - the advantage of having your horses at home as I suspect if he had been on a livery yard, he would have been found dead in an awful state in the morning which doesn't bear thinking about.

I really think it is one of those things until you are in the situation what you say and what you do may change depending on vet advice, age of horse and also financial impact even with insurance cover.

 

[be positive]

The "piece of paper" is a last resort if the owner is not able to be contacted or unable to attend, it does not give the YO or vets authority to pts a horse because it has colic but does mean it can be if the colic is serious enough that surgery is the only option, usually there is plenty of time to contact an owner, get the vet, treat conservatively and take time to think about whether you want to take the horse in.
There will be the odd time the horse is found well beyond normal first stage treatment, the owner is away and a decision needs to be made within minutes to prevent further suffering it is in these circumstances the "piece of paper" will be used not just to stop it going for surgery but to allow a vet and YO to act when they really have to.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

An gelding here had surgery though the lady has not gone into details but he is now late teens and still fine, where another had 2 surgery's and again pulled through though horse was younger.


I find it kind of strange a yard has this clause as doesn't that apply to any serious injury or ailment - why just single out colic!!!


Every colic case is different as there are so many causes and so many types. For example when the stomach muscles fail to push the food into the intestines. Surgery is not advised due to stomach being open to infection and the only thing to try is injecting fluid into the stomach to try break up the food mash up the tube through nose. This may or may not work, leaving it is not an option as the stomach is at risk or rupturing.
Entrapment is a very hard one to treat and although sometimes transporting the horse to vets can cause the entrapment to release but not always. There is a high risk of not being able to release and then the horse goes downhill fast due to blood poisoning as well as other complications.


I think a broad line clause


In case of emergency, if the owner cannot be contacted the owners vet, or if unavailable, then the yard vet will be called to treat the horse and the owner will be responsible for the payment.

The horse owner agrees that if an emergency euthanasia arises and the owner cannot get to the situation or be contacted and the veterinary surgeon advises immediate slaughter of the horse to prevent further injury and suffering. The horse owner appoints * name(s) of vets * to act on the owners behalf and do what is best for the animal. Something along those lines.

 

[be positive]

An gelding here had surgery though the lady has not gone into details but he is now late teens and still fine, where another had 2 surgery's and again pulled through though horse was younger.


I find it kind of strange a yard has this clause as doesn't that apply to any serious injury or ailment - why just single out colic!!!


Every colic case is different as there are so many cause and so many types. For example when the stomach muscles fail to push the food into the intestines fails. Surgery is not advised due to stomach being open to infection and the only thing to try is injecting fluid into the stomach to try break up the food mash up the tube through nose. This may or may not work, leaving it is not an option as the stomach is at risk or rupturing.
Entrapment is a very hard one to treat and although sometimes transporting the horse to vets can cause the entrapment to release but not always. There is a high risk of not being able to release and then the horse goes downhill fast due to blood poisoning as well as other complications.


I think a broad line clause like the one used in livery List which to me is better and covers accident too
[quote from livery list]


Though I would change it to:

In case of emergency, if the owner cannot be contacted the owners vet, or if unavailable, then the yard vet will be called to treat the horse and the owner will be responsible for the payment.

The horse owner agrees that if an emergency euthanasia arises and the owner cannot get to the situation or be contacted and the veterinary surgeon advises immediate slaughter of the horse to prevent further injury and suffering. The horse owner appoints * name(s) of vets * to act on the owners behalf and do what is best for the animal. Something along those lines.

It is because every colic case is different and that time may be limited to make a decision that it is something that needs addressing in a slightly different way, a vet will not make the pts call on a horse that could go to surgery so if the owner cannot be contacted the YO must know what they would prefer, it is very unlikely to happen but I would hate to send a horse in have it die on the table only to find the owner would have rather put it down at home, obviously a worst case scenario but one that can be run past most owners.
A broken leg or catastrophic injury is less of a dilemma, the vet will make the call, anything less serious can usually be patched up made comfortable until the owner can be contacted as time is not as much of as issue as colic where the pain can be unbearable, where every hour may mean less chance of recovery.
I am not sure a vet will want to have authority to act and if a locum or new employee is the one on call for an out of hours emergency they are unlikely to be able to make a decision unlike a YO who will know the horse and owner personally who can easily be given authority to act in any emergency.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

It is because every colic case is different and that time may be limited to make a decision that it is something that needs addressing in a slightly different way, a vet will not make the pts call on a horse that could go to surgery so if the owner cannot be contacted the YO must know what they would prefer, it is very unlikely to happen but I would hate to send a horse in have it die on the table only to find the owner would have rather put it down at home, obviously a worst case scenario but one that can be run past most owners.
A broken leg or catastrophic injury is less of a dilemma, the vet will make the call, anything less serious can usually be patched up made comfortable until the owner can be contacted as time is not as much of as issue as colic where the pain can be unbearable, where every hour may mean less chance of recovery.
I am not sure a vet will want to have authority to act and if a locum or new employee is the one on call for an out of hours emergency they are unlikely to be able to make a decision unlike a YO who will know the horse and owner personally who can easily be given authority to act in any emergency.

Well this is the first i ever heard of a yard specifying colic emergency, most yards have a contract and it is down to the owners to make sure any eventuality is covered and to put in writing what should happen if the horse is a known colic horse, or if the owner wants the yard to be aware of their wishing. Also if the owner goes away it is their responsibility to appoint someone they trust to do what is right in the event of a vet being needed if they go away.

For example I go away next Sunday for two weeks, I have two friends stepping in to look after my motley crew and my vets are aware of the situation and know the two names given to book appointments in my absence. They know my wishes and my phone will be with me and i trust my vets to do what is best should needs arise. Also my vets have been given my hotel number.