Colic - worms - sudden temperature change

[Chappie]

Hi sorry if this is not enough info/ramble but not had much sleep in past week/very stressed. Looking for some general info on worming and colic as don't know if I'm unreasonably anxious?

We're having a drastic weather change tonight from 11C/feels like 8C to - 4/feels like -11C with gusts over 45mph NW winds. Potential snow around midnight. Been very reasonable weather really and often spring-like past month. Going to be very cold and windy this coming week, possibly even snow into next Friday.

Horses will be stabled but what rugs would you put on? Got 100g stable combo, fleece and 100g turnout combo at yard. Got pretty much every other kind of rug at home, clean, if needed eg 200g stable combo. Not had turnout rugs on for weeks. Not clipped, moulting. Stables east facing. 14.2hh cob 20yr old weight taped around 400kg so not underweight. And a cross bred pony of similar stats, finer than a native but gets hot easily. That one would be okay in either a combo mediumweight (old so not very thick) or a standard neck med weight stable? Normally good with these things but doubting myself.

Reason for concern is cob has had spasmodic colic 3 x in past week, one bad bout, all times been down, attended by vet. Now on day 2 of panacur 5day course. Not my horse so I don't have control, owner not been worming, could be linked and could be touch of spring grass as well says vets. On box rest and hand grazing throughout day and 1 hour in dry lot.

Can unfortunately horses get colic anyway, particularly this time of year, even though they are wormed regular/on a plan? Is it highly likely it could be parasites? Can it just be random bad luck brought on by intake of grass and weather? Don't know if I'm unreasonably concerned.

I do wish the owner would do a worming plan regularly as then everything reasonable can be done preventatively, it was the first thing the vets asked me, but I don't have any influence. The plan they are on with the vets gives 3 x egg counts a year, only one has been done (randomly) at most, there was a zero count last May on the records and as there is no mention of tape and redworm the owners don't realise these have to be accounted for. I wonder why the practices don't mention this?

Only on grass turnout 3 x 6 hours a week, about 14 horses in mixed herd, don't know acre but decent size, field is not treated or manure lifted, wasn't used all winter, this is 5th week it was used, not much grass in it, it gets a lot of clover on it when it grows.

Also any tips please on what is a good thing to hide probiotic in to get them to eat that?

Thanks for reading, I'm really confused ?

 

[Griffin]

I am no expert but worms can cause colic, as can stress. lack of exercise, sudden rich grass and eating straw beds.

If the cob is stabled, it very much depends on how they feel the cold (which I know is not really any help at all). I look after an elderly cob and even in the middle of winter, the warmest rug I would put on them is 100g because they run hot.

I would put two hay nets in, in two different places to encourage them to move around a bit more overnight.

It's hard when they are not your horse. The only thing I could suggest is getting the horse worm counted and do a tapeworm test. Hopefully, if the results suggest worms, the owner may be encouraged to act.

In terms of hiding the probitotic, if you have to, I would mix it with a handful (not a scoop) of quite tasty feed e.g. a mix. Otherwise, if it is paste and you can't syringe it in, I would core an apple and put it in the middle of that.

 

[ycbm]

Tapeworm is well known for causing colic, and the horse should, I think, be being wormed for tape asap.
.

 

[Chappie]

I am no expert but worms can cause colic, as can stress. lack of exercise, sudden rich grass and eating straw beds.

If the cob is stabled, it very much depends on how they feel the cold (which I know is not really any help at all). I look after an elderly cob and even in the middle of winter, the warmest rug I would put on them is 100g because they run hot.

I would put two hay nets in, in two different places to encourage them to move around a bit more overnight.

It's hard when they are not your horse. The only thing I could suggest is getting the horse worm counted and do a tapeworm test. Hopefully, if the results suggest worms, the owner may be encouraged to act.

In terms of hiding the probitotic, if you have to, I would mix it with a handful (not a scoop) of quite tasty feed e.g. a mix. Otherwise, if it is paste and you can't syringe it
in, I would core an apple and put it in the middle of that.

Thank you very much for replying. I've calmed down about the rugging, im just going to put the 100g on him and check later tonight and first thing tomorrow what hes like.

Stable sadly too small to hang haynets about but will have a bit more than usual 6kg in a trickle net tonight.

Unfortunately im not allowed to take action on worming or counts myself so im stuck there.

I will ask a friend for a tiny bit of mollassed mix and see if that will help with the probiotic paste. Got apples too so can try that.

Latest is that the owner dosed the horse this morning for day 2 of 5 day course and asked the yard owner to administer the remaining days. Communication went wrong and now he's had 2 doses today.

At this point I decide leave them to it and just carry on my usual daily care schedule. No idea when I can ride or he will get grass turnout again. Standing still in small stable a hell of a lot. He gets angry and bolshy when hand grazing and cars always buzzing about.

 

[Chappie]

Tapeworm is well known for causing colic, and the horse should, I think, be being wormed for tape asap.
.

Thanks ycbm, he's now getting a Panacur 5 day course. I just hope the owners now get advice from the vets on how to worm and check for worms. Nothing more I can do I guess.

 

[windand rain]

your situation seems a bit odd you can give him pre and probiotic but not a wormer, and if you are not in control of him why would you be going down late at night or losing sleep looking after him the owner needs to step up or step back or the horse will suffer

 

[ycbm]

Thanks ycbm, he's now getting a Panacur 5 day course. I just hope the owners now get advice from the vets on how to worm and check for worms. Nothing more I can do I guess.

That won't do tape. The horse needs doing for tape it's a major cause of spasmodic colic.
.

 

[Equi]

With such an unknown worming history don’t let them give equest or anything with praziqental - if there is a tape burden this could be fatal. Strongid-p is milder and at double dose does tape worm. But I would ask vet before giving the horse anything at all!

 

[Chappie]

your situation seems a bit odd you can give him pre and probiotic but not a wormer, and if you are not in control of him why would you be going down late at night or losing sleep looking after him the owner needs to step up or step back or the horse will suffer

It IS unusal windand rain and it causes me a lot of stress but the horses would suffer even more if I leave.

The second vet gave me the probiotic to administer as I am there daily and give the token feed.

The owner - it's his kids outgrown ponies - comes 1 or 2 times a week and hacks the other horse. He doesn't know very much despite owning horses over 10 years but the things he knows are not true/part true/out of context. He doesn't want to learn, he knows best. He's quite rough with the horses sometimes.

Its a strange livery set up as well, its several business in one, its not full or diy, its probably more like part but a bit full - lots of owners treat it like full.

 

[Chappie]

That won't do tape. The horse needs doing for tape it's a major cause of spasmodic colic.
.

This is really worrying - why do the two vets we've seen not mention this?

 

[Chappie]

With such an unknown worming history don’t let them give equest or anything with praziqental - if there is a tape burden this could be fatal. Strongid-p is milder and at double dose does tape worm. But I would ask vet before giving the horse anything at all!

It was the second vet on the third visit that said get Panacur, the owner went and bought it at a country store the next morning. This worries me greatly that it might not be the right thing to give.

There has been a mis-communication between the YO and owner and the YO has given the horses the third dose today as well as the owner giving the second. They thought it funny.

It's out of my hands, I cannot do a thing? I've not ridden all week (its beside the point but still) just done all the care on top of a demanding job of my own and expected to help on the yard as well and none of them even care, spoken to like a servant. So angry.

I hope they don't follow up this 5 day course with Equest as I know its powerful and the YO has some left. I cannot relax, im so on edge. One thing ive learnt this last year us that ANYTHING can happen.

 

[Chappie]

Where can I learn comprehemsive knowledge about worming? Does anyone know of something like an online course I could do? Its the one subject im really unsure about and its awful to be in this position of not knowing whats truely going on.

Or leaflet or booklet? But the owner won't read it so its a bit pointless to get it for him I guess.

 

[ycbm]

This is really worrying - why do the two vets we've seen not mention this?

They should have.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBRAC&usg=AOvVaw0JijANUKmqoHHfLg83ViXg

 

[ycbm]

Where can I learn comprehemsive knowledge about worming? Does anyone know of something like an online course I could do? Its the one subject im really unsure about and its awful to be in this position of not knowing whats truely going on.

Or leaflet or booklet? But the owner won't read it so its a bit pointless to get it for him I guess.

If you Google it, lots of vet sites will have worming advice.

 

[criso]

Where can I learn comprehemsive knowledge about worming? Does anyone know of something like an online course I could do? Its the one subject im really unsure about and its awful to be in this position of not knowing whats truely going on.

Or leaflet or booklet? But the owner won't read it so its a bit pointless to get it for him I guess.

Westgate labs are a good place for info. They also do a subscription service where for a monthly fee they send out the test kits you need and advise on the results.

https://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/info-zone/

 

[tda]

Www.EquiToolz.com have online courses, and Westgate Labs have lots info on their website

 

[Equi]

Panacur 5 day is mild so don’t worry about them giving that, but it won’t treat for tape worm and tape worms are the most likely to cause colicky symptoms, but giving the horse a high dose of tape worm killer that kills all the worms at once can cause a total impaction. It’s better to treat bit by bit and get on a regular working schedule and test for tape worm with a saliva test.

 

[Chappie]

If you Google it, lots of vet sites will have worming advice.

I have over the years, but I'm still confused. The two vet practices in my area have healthcare plans and both offer 3 egg counts - there is no mention of additional worming care. This makes people like my owners think that's all they need to do.

But i'm reading about saliva and blood tests on Westgate's site and some sites say you must still dose for tape and redworm, yet warn of resistance, and mention lots of brand names and ingredients that people who are not experienced will be confused by.

Im actually going to rummage thro my equine magazines to see if there is any recent articles I've missed. Always order them but little time to read them!

 

[Chappie]

Panacur 5 day is mild so don’t worry about them giving that, but it won’t treat for tape worm and tape worms are the most likely to cause colicky symptoms, but giving the horse a high dose of tape worm killer that kills all the worms at once can cause a total impaction. It’s better to treat bit by bit and get on a regular working schedule and test for tape worm with a saliva test.

Thank you this is both helpful and my worst fears as the owner and YO were saying this course will kill all the worms, they're all gonna come flying out and that's him done for a year.

We don't know that it IS worms that caused the colics. Its where he is lacking though and another horse on the site has been ill with worms. His heart rate was 40-44, gums okay, no increase in temps. Lots of gurgling in the gut. The first 2 times he'd been in the grass field, the third time not.

Will just have to see if they change practice and are influence by them to take up a proper program of worm care. Tried to get them to do Westgate Labs years ago and they just said they don't want him full of chemicals.

 

[Equi]

I test every 6 months and In spring/first frost I dose for tape worm, but the products also do the rest of the worms too.

the egg test won’t pick up the actual worm burden so it’s sort of an open to interpretation kind of thing. But the lower it comes back the better. I don’t think I would feel comfortable not worming at all just because the test came back saying not too - it won’t pick up everything.

 

[criso]

Westgate have been at the forefront of the latest testing and research so as up to datevas you are likely to get.

Basic testing is wormcounts, most places do 4 times a year with maybe follow up tests if you find a particularly heavy burden and want to check the wormer has worked.

Then there's the saliva test for tapeworm.. Not everyone uses it and if you don't then you have to worm for tapeworm.

The bloodtest for encysted redworm is fairly new, not widely used and can be expensive as you have to get a vet to draw blood, without this test you still have to worm for that once a year.

There is increasing resistance to wormers which is why testing and targeting worming is the way forward. Panacur is actually one that does have widespread resistance though it varies in different parts of the country.

Not sure why they think Westgate will fill him full of chemicals, in fact the opposite. The more tests you do, the fewer wormers you need. If you are only worm counting, then you need to worm for tapeworms twice a year and encysted redworm once. If you also test for tapeworm and it's clear, then you can skip those wormers. If you add a blood test for encysted redworm to the mix, then if that's clear, you won't need any chemical wormers at all.

Tbh they sound a bit like my old ym who thought worm counts caused worms. There was no reasoning with her so i just carried on testing. Difficult though if it's not your horse.

 

[Chappie]

Westgate have been at the forefront of the latest testing and research so as up to datevas you are likely to get.

Basic testing is wormcounts, most places do 4 times a year with maybe follow up tests if you find a particularly heavy burden and want to check the wormer has worked.

Then there's the saliva test for tapeworm.. Not everyone uses it and if you don't then you have to worm for tapeworm.

The bloodtest for encysted redworm is fairly new, not widely used and can be expensive as you have to get a vet to draw blood, without this test you still have to worm for that once a year.

There is increasing resistance to wormers which is why testing and targeting worming is the way forward. Panacur is actually one that does have widespread resistance though it varies in different parts of the country.

Not sure why they think Westgate will fill him full of chemicals, in fact the opposite. The more tests you do, the fewer wormers you need. If you are only worm counting, then you need to worm for tapeworms twice a year and encysted redworm once. If you also test for tapeworm and it's clear, then you can skip those wormers. If you add a blood test for encysted redworm to the mix, then if that's clear, you won't need any chemical wormers at all.

Tbh they sound a bit like my old ym who thought worm counts caused worms. There was no reasoning with her so i just carried on testing. Difficult though if it's not your horse.

Thank you, that's very comprehensive and paragraph six there is what I THOUGHT was the right thing to be doing.

But the owner will not listen to me at all and the YO won't back me as she doesn't worm regular either so I am stuck. Poor, poor horses ?

 

[Dexter]

just worm count and worm them yourself if needs be. You clearly have day to day care of them

 

[ycbm]

The bloodtest for encysted redworm is fairly new, not widely used and can be expensive as you have to get a vet to draw blood, without this test you still have to worm for that once a year.


.

My vet told me that if the horse consistently counted clear of adult redworm, then there would be no encysted redworm and no need to dose for it, because the life cycle of the redworm is horse only with no intermediary. They can encysted for years, though, so every new horse needs a moxidectin dose no matter what their worm egg count.
.

 

[criso]

My vet told me that if the horse consistently counted clear of adult redworm, then there would be no encysted redworm and no need to dose for it, because the life cycle of the redworm is horse only with no intermediary. They can encysted for years, though, so every new horse needs a moxidectin dose no matter what their worm egg count.
.

I think that depends on the environment too. If you have had clear worm counts over several years and an optimal environment , then it is unlikely that you have got encysted. I've always been on livery yards with comings and goings, not always ideal field management, mixed approaches to worming and field/herd changes so that annual dose makes sense.

It will be interesting as the tests become more used, what it reveals about the extent of encysted redworm.

I have one that has a positive tapeworm test every time, he has been wormed for tapes 6 monthly rotating paraziquantel and double dose pyrantel but every time he tests positive. This is on more than one yard too. Always has clear worm counts though so it's only tapeworm he's susceptible to.

 

[Chappie]

just worm count and worm them yourself if needs be. You clearly have day to day care of them

I had thought of this years ago when I found out about Westgate Labs - I recall printing stuff out and giving it to him but he just folded it up without looking at it and said he doesn't like chemicals. I guess it would be wildly overstepping the mark with the owners though?
I can imagine the YO would be furious. Also what if I give a wormer and the horse colics - I'd be in massive trouble - or the owners randomly give a wormer the next week - they are prone to doing random things and not communicating.

I would like them to take care of their other horse too. Perhaps this situation and joining the other practice will get them on the right track - not optimistic but they might surprise me.

I'm going to read the Westgate site again and see if I could even do the testing stage.

 

[Chappie]

So the horse didn't get a dose of medication yesterday but probably that's because they acccidentaly gave him 2 the day before.

I got him to eat all the probiotic (finally!) by mixing it well into a paste with water and the dust/crumbs from a Baileys Fibre Nuggets bag, he absolutely loves them. Tried making a mix of apple and a little mollased feed and hiding it in apple but he wasn't keen on that so glad I found a solution.

Poo looking more normal now and coming through proper and behavior more like himself but still watching him very closely.

I'm thinking of phoning the vets myself to leave an update/ hopefully speak to one of the two (ideally the second one, as they seemed more forthcoming with info) and ask when I can exercise again, when can I turnout after the course and if they are going to follow up the Panacur later with a wormer to treat tape. I hope they can give that info out despite me not being the owner, maybe not.

Also ask if the poo sample turned up.

I've been reading the Westgate site again for my own knowledge but the chances of persuading the owners to do this are not realistic.

 

[Griffin]

So the horse didn't get a dose of medication yesterday but probably that's because they acccidentaly gave him 2 the day before.

I got him to eat all the probiotic (finally!) by mixing it well into a paste with water and the dust/crumbs from a Baileys Fibre Nuggets bag, he absolutely loves them. Tried making a mix of apple and a little mollased feed and hiding it in apple but he wasn't keen on that so glad I found a solution.

Poo looking more normal now and coming through proper and behavior more like himself but still watching him very closely.

I'm thinking of phoning the vets myself to leave an update/ hopefully speak to one of the two (ideally the second one, as they seemed more forthcoming with info) and ask when I can exercise again, when can I turnout after the course and if they are going to follow up the Panacur later with a wormer to treat tape. I hope they can give that info out despite me not being the owner, maybe not.

Also ask if the poo sample turned up.

I've been reading the Westgate site again for my own knowledge but the chances of persuading the owners to do this are not realistic.

Glad to hear you have got the probitotics into him @Chappie . I do understand how hard it is when you end up looking after a horse with an absent owner. You may have said but what is your relationship to the horse? I just ask because I think if you are another livery, I am not sure whether the vet will speak to you. I know that my vet will only speak to owners and yard owners (with permission), obviously I don't knwo if your vet is different.

 

[Chappie]

I think you're right Griffin, I'm just technically a part loaner so the vets can't speak to me. Awkward as I have no idea when I can ride or he can have grass turnout and if he is getting another wormer after the 5 day course. I read the box and it states it's for redworm and roundworm.

He seems to be doing okay now and that's the main thing.

 

[Griffin]

I think you're right Griffin, I'm just technically a part loaner so the vets can't speak to me. Awkward as I have no idea when I can ride or he can have grass turnout and if he is getting another wormer after the 5 day course. I read the box and it states it's for redworm and roundworm.

He seems to be doing okay now and that's the main thing.

I am glad to hear that he seems better. I think if you part loan him, it may be worth asking the owner of they can give the vet permission to speak to you (you could go on the tact of it means that they don't have to pass on messages from the vet to you), they might agree to it.