collection taught before extension?

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itroteverywhere

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I've just been watching hannah biggs' video on horse hero (torri learns flying changes) and there are some comments on there written by (I'm assuming) spanish riders saying how the english system is weird - that it is unusual to teach extension before collection.

What does everyone think of this? Its got me thinking!
 
I've heard this before too :)! From what I can tell the spanish "way" teaches collection before extension because they believe extension can't exist without collection (Hope that makes sense?). The basis of this being that for a horse to be showing any kind of extension (or to be "forward going" in a positive way) it first needs to learn to engage it's hind legs, this is easily taught through collection.

It makes sense if you think about it, a horse not working through it's back (something that is in a sense "collection") that lengthens or extends will just trot/canter faster and faster - with the hindlegs jogging on behind. Also for a really amazing extension the horse needs to open up it's shoulder, this can only be achieved by riding in an "uphill" frame - something that also comes from collection.

It makes sense but generally I don't think it's the riding method that counts as much as the rider :). Any method can be wonderful if ridden properly
 
Tbh in lower level dressage tests 'show some lengthened strides' is just to show that the horse can go forwards when asked imo. It makes sense to me that I horse cannot truly extend until ot can carry some weight on its hind legs. Im interested to hear other opinions
 
Maybe it would be an idea to scrap the "lengthened" stride and ask for a "collected" stride instead.

Often in the asking of a lengthened stride the rider only encourages the horse to drop onto its forehand and "run" rather than allowing the shoulder to lift with a push from behind.

Makes sense to me to teach collection before extension.:)


ETA i think it is more "classical" thought rather than just spanish?
 
The only thing of I can think against it is potential injury ie. An inexperienced rider asking for coklection and going the wrong way about it could be potentially more harmful than extension. But both collection and extension are gradual processes!
 
I would have thought its because of the bred of horses.
Pre's are naturally able to do collection because short backed and more upright in movement.
Therefore it makes sence to teach these horses through there natural ability first.
I was always taught that to get the best out of any horse you go with its strenghs first.
Happy to stand corrected by thoses who know more.:D
 
I was always taught that a horse cannot extend properly before it can collect so not a strange one to me!

Even in an extension the horse should be carrying the weight behind but increasing the stride length. Collection teaches the horse to sit behind and therefore give the horse the strength to sit and lengthen when asking for the extension.

far too many horse run on the forhand in extensions (or even just mediums) which just arn't correct. If you ride a proper extension you will feel the horse sit and lift and open through the shoulder a really special feeling when you get it.

Just watch Utophia from the Euros now wow those are extensions you can really see how the power comes from behind causing him to float hence 10s whereas in a lot of other GP horses there is far more infront then behind so although looks impressive it isn't true extension.
 
It's all a matter of degree - there is no "absolute" collection until you get to piaffe, the rest is all by degree. To do lengthened strides, or a 10m half circle, you are already asking fo the minutest amount of collection first. I definitely agree that extension comes out of collection - how many people ask for a good half halt in the corner before lengthened strides? That IS collection but we don't call it that because it is such a tiny amount.
 
Think of the scales of training, collection means taking weight behind and learning to "sit" and balance themselves correctly with a rider on board... therefore it could be more of a translational difference, in the fact that until a horse is engaged, and taking weight behind (therefore starting to learn to collect), it can't truly extend anyway :)
 
Makes a lot of sense if you think about Spanish horses and their physical capabilities; they typically find collection way easier than extension...

I think most of us would agree it is best to let the horse's ability guide you, and if they find something easy then encourage that from an early stage...

So for a TB, you might work on extensions first, and for an andalusian you might encourage piaffe/passage first

Simples!
 
My trainer - dutch - teaches collection before extension, and as others above have posted, says you can't have extension without collection. The aim of our collection work is to teach my horse to open his shoulders, go forwards and extend. It's not 'proper' collection and he's not at any stage winched in. However, he is learning to 'sit'.
 
As said above, yes, I think this isn't just a "Spanish" thing, it's a "classical" thing :) Makes sense to me as you want the horse to learn to take more weight behind before it can extend without just running onto his forehand.

tbh, with many modern day warmbloods who are blessed with such naturally good paces, I think many people get away with extension before collection thanks to the horse's natural talent, rather than the person's training ability. Likewise there are other breeds that find extension easier than others. However, I'm not sure that just because a horse "can" extend first, that means he should? (i.e. are you really getting a good quality extension/ the best quality extension the horse will be able to give you, if you try to do that before you collect?).
 
My old TB could extent his trot like nobody's business (ok, don't know if it was properly correct I was a teenager, but felt like i was flying!) but my current horse who's half luso definitely finds extension harder, and collects v easily. Given, I probably STILL don't do it completely properly, and we have reached no great heights in dressage, this is just what I notice from jumping him :)
 
It's not just the English, Reiner Klimke always said 'you can't have collection without extension,' I suppose without the correct muscle development at the back end, collection will just result in a shortening of the front end.:)
 
It is correct to teach a 'degree' of collection before extension. However when we talk about the level of collection for teaching medium trot for a novice/ele test we do not mean the level of collection required at medium and above. Simple training a horse to half halt is developing collection, to be able to extend correctly the horse needs to keep the weight on the hind legs, not run onto the forehand hence the need to teach a degree of collection.
 
I think charlie's hit the nail on the head. A degree of collection first, then a degree of extention, then progress from there. They go hand in hand I guess.

J&C
 
interestingly, from a veterinary point of view, i remember reading some research recently (think possibly summarised in the veterinary articles in h&h), saying that extension places far more stress on the joints and ligaments than collection does, so we should probably be teaching young horses collection before extension from this pov too, not only from the scales of training side of things.

bonus points if anyone can find the article, cos having just done a quick search I cant seem to find it again!
 
re my previous post, I'm now not sure if I've got it back to front and upside down and inside out:o Did I dream the extension before collection theory and just having a senior moment?:o:D
 
I think that asking for true collection at the lower levels could be a terrible disaster with riders pulling on the reins to shorten a horse that lacks impulsion. For me the reason impulsion comes before collection in the scales of training is that impulsion means engagement. If the hind legs are not engaged to create impulsion then the horse will be flat. If the hind legs are engaged for impulsion they can become even further engaged, taking even more weight behind for collection, resulting in the collected paces, half-pass, pirouettes, piaffe and passage.
 
But the engagement doesn't come from impulsion on its own, its created by controlling the impulsion with half halts and there fore a small degree of collection.
 
To add, Re. The scales Of training, all though these are a aid memoir for training, they are not used in isolation, you can use other elements alongside each scale.
 
charlie76 said:
But the engagement doesn't come from impulsion on its own, its created by controlling the impulsion with half halts and there fore a small degree of collection.
Click to expand...

For me impulsion is engagement plus control (half halts) but this does smack a bit of arguing over the words rather than the feeling. A forward going horse that allows the rider no control is flat and does not show impulsion. A horse that is 'artificially' shortened by holding on to the front end does not show collection. A horse that rushes and falls onto the forehand does not show extension.

To be honest my experience is almost null, but it does seem to me that impulsion for extension is easier than impulsion for collection.
 
Not arguing at all. Just from my own experience if you teach a rider extension before teaching some form of collection (ie half halts) Then instead on extension They tend to get the horse running onto the forehand instead. I'm sure Many of us have had the phrase'hurried and unbalanced ' in our tests.
By teaching the horse to collect a little first you have the tools in place to prevent loss of balance.
Also in elementary tests There is medium canter To a ten metre circle in collected canter so the horse must be able to sit and take the weight behind.
One of the best ways to develop the medium trot is To ride transitions from medium to slight collection and then on again, it really helps to maintain balance and develop expression and in turn increases the impulsion( hope that makes sense).
One of the most common fault at the lower levels in the medium trot and canter is the horse falling on to the forehand. As you watch tests at the higher levels this Is less common as the horse has developed an element of collection meaning the propulsion comes much more from behind.
 
charlie76 said:
Not arguing at all. Just from my own experience if you teach a rider extension before teaching some form of collection (ie half halts) Then instead on extension They tend to get the horse running onto the forehand instead. I'm sure Many of us have had the phrase'hurried and unbalanced ' in our tests.
By teaching the horse to collect a little first you have the tools in place to prevent loss of balance.
Also in elementary tests There is medium canter To a ten metre circle in collected canter so the horse must be able to sit and take the weight behind.
One of the best ways to develop the medium trot is To ride transitions from medium to slight collection and then on again, it really helps to maintain balance and develop expression and in turn increases the impulsion( hope that makes sense).
One of the most common fault at the lower levels in the medium trot and canter is the horse falling on to the forehand. As you watch tests at the higher levels this Is less common as the horse has developed an element of collection meaning the propulsion comes much more from behind.
Click to expand...


No of course I didn't think we were arguing either! :)

Could it be a matter of the terms used? I would call teaching half halts the teaching of impulsion, not collection as such. In the extended paces if the horse hurries it's not because it lacks collection but because it lacks the engagement necessary for true impulsion (and only showing the forwardness needed for impulsion).
 
I'm even more confused now as both arguments appear valid. I remember being taught extension and collection as a child, I was always instructed to extend along the long side before collecting on the short side, perhaps this is where I am getting muddled.
 
Blazingsaddles, the usual thing would be to collect the trot a little through the corner prior to doing the medium trot on the long side, then Recollect the trot through the corner (or at a particular letter when test riding) at the end.
To develop the balance, engagement and expression You can teach the horse to go collect -medium-collect-medium-collect in quick succession.
The collection must come mainly from your core and seat to prevent the neck coming tight and short.
 
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