Collective Marks

Tempi

Tempi

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Are they really needed? Have just been reading the following on Eurodressage which is a reply letter to Wayne Channons recent column on there where he talked about half marks in dressage:

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At last we have somebody with intelligence and gumption to deal with anomalies of dressage judging. For years there has been much talk about correcting and making dressage judging more consistent and transparent but little has been done practically. Maybe you can raise some issues in your column. To start with, the issue of the collective marks- are they really needed? I feel that they only distort the true results of the dressage test as they only benefit the high profile combinations and penalise the less spectacular horses ridden by less know riders. We often see tests being won simply because the collective marks are high, while the actual performances in the test received similar marks and only because the high profile rider received an 8 or 9 for their riding it can give an advantage of 1%. Does it make a difference if the horse has got the WOW paces if he does not perform a dressage test. The use of the collective marks in order to divide two riders with equal total marks is mathematically illogical as obviously the one with the lower collective mark will have achieved more marks for the actual test. I believe the collective marks draws the insecure judges to manipulate the. Who would dare give Anky a lower mark for her riding or for her horses submission when everyone can see that there was no halt and the horse was panting as if it had run the Grand National. I am sure that removal of the collective marks will make the results more transparent and understood and less manipulated. I hope that you share my feelings about it and maybe we can start the ball rolling.

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After reading this it did make me think as to whether collectives are really needed? Surely within each movement the horse/rider could be marked out of 10 using decimal points as opposed to even half points - similar to the scoring in YH classes?

Judging in dressage is a hotly debated topic, espeicially at the moment - so id be interested to read other peoples views on this.

Im on the fence i think - part of me thinks taking away collectives its a good idea, part of me dosent!

Discuss (nicely!!)
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I just hate it when you look at your sheet and see you have got 7's, 8's and 9's all the way through and you get 7's for collectives .Then you see a winning sheet and it is 6's and 7's and says tension ,then they get 8's and 9's for collectives because they move well.They can alter the result a lot
 
Collectives are the most subjective part of the score as they are based on subsequent impressions of the whole test rather than of a specific movement. The problem of a judge being swayed by a rider's reputation rather than the current test is possibly most evident in the collectives.

However, dressage is about more than performing specific movements at named markers; it is about the whole way of going of the horse, its submission and acceptance of the bit, and the way the rider applies the aids - precisely the things that are awarded marks in the collectives. I worry that if you took collectives away dressage would become like "trick riding" - riding the movements instead of the whole test.
 
Ah yes, but then do you not think that then each movement that is marked out of 10 should then include the submission, riders position, paces etc? As each can vary from movement to movement - some horses go tight and stiff in say halfpass, but might have a cracking medium/extended trot - so if the marks were awarded out of 10 as a whole then this difference in the horses way of going could be noted accordingly? (Rather than having a general collective mark at the end)

I do see your point tho - i was hoping you would reply!!
 
True, but I still would say that if a horse is going tight and stiff in the half pass (for example) this reflects on the whole way of going of the horse or rider (not straight, maybe, or being blocked by the inside rein), and not only on the specific half pass being ridden.

But I do see your point. I used to think exactly as you do. However, I'm starting to think that collectives are the best compromise in what is always going to be a flawed system.
 
interesting - yes i do agree as if there is a tightness/stiffness issue then altho it will show more in the halfpass to whichever direction it is generally going to be a problem that is already there....
 
The point about awarding the class to the person with higher collectives has always puzzled me. Surely it should go to the horse and rider who rode the actual movements within the test the best. Rather than to the person who gave an overall better impression?
I can see why people are questioning the need for collectives, but also I can see why they are used. However I will say that if the submission and paces etc aren't great through the test then you generally don't get the higher marks anyway.
 
Very interesting.
I personally don't think that collective marks should alter the result - as you say the items being marked should already be included in the movements.
The difficulty is that if the judge is trying to include submission, paces etc plus the accuracy then it may be difficult when getting the result to identify exactly what went well or badly, it may get lost in the rounding. The collective marks do give the judge the chance to give marks & just as important comments about the general impression. There have been many times where my horse has been tense and very difficult to ride & it can be encouraging to get good / better marks for my riding.
One further thought is that in eventing collective marks are now single marks, so total of 40. Are they still double in pure dressage ie total of 80 ? What is the correct level of influence ?
 
I have also heard the opposite suggested. i.e that there are collectives marks but not marks for each movement.

This allows the judge to make notes through the test on the 'overall way of going' rather than nit picking how individual movements are ridden which can be the case now.

I dont really have a view either way but interesting debate.
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Must admit I think collectives have a place.....

ie. if you have a good horse, but the connection with rider is not quite there in certain movements, you may be getting, say 8,7,6, odd 5 etc... but these could be because of rider error, although the horse has good paces, impulsion, submission, etc.. so then the riders marking will be down in the collectives, but the horses actual way of going, shown through having achieved some 8,7 etc... in the test itself, should therefore be marked quite well in the collectives , if that makes sense!!! Also, if the rider did a pear shape circle, mark would be down in test , but should not reflect on the horses way of going if it had good marks for other movements etc..Also for me personally I like the collectives because it is interesting to see what they underline!!! I think the Judges have to see an overall picture of the test and there could be parts which were fab and then a couple of movements which were "not so good" but overall the horse and rider were communicating well and showed potential. Then again, you may have a horse/pony that make no mistakes as such riding the movements but does not perform them as well.. ie the horse may not be as elastic or light or soft through the back... what I suppose we have to look at is these movements are there to reflect our training... a horse may be able to "do" a piaffe say, but is he tense, using the correct muscles, then again another horse may come along and perform only say "half a piaffe" but that half was more correct, they would be marked down in the test, but collectives would be higher I presume!! My theory only!

I do think half point judging would work too, only half points though because I think 0.01 would be too difficult to distinguish!!
 
Hmmm, many good points raised here! I personally hate collective marks for one horse, but love them on the other!!!! One is not flashy, very basic, not always behaving but does a very acurate, active test!! the other has 'wow' paces, submissin and acceptance of the bridle, but finds some movements difficult and stumbles over his own feet occasionally, but gets good marks due to his high collective marks, whereas the other drops way down on the collective marks.
I've judged pc dress at a fun day for a middle group (10-12yo) and I found it very hard doin collective marks, but easy for individual movements, where i took into account the overall picture for the movement.
 
I think collectives have their place but I don't think the should x 2, that way they wouldn't distort the results so much.
 
During judge training 'we' often talk about a 'big' or a 'small' marks, i like to think of them of half marks. I think this would be useful.
As for the collectives i also think they should remain but not as a x's2 but just as a set of marks to give a summary of the test . If used properly they can help guide the combination as to where the work needs to be done. It is true however that these collectives can be used to give preference to known combinations and to gain favour especially for judges who want to progress up the judging scale or even dare i say it to do some axe grinding.
I think the inclusion of more riders becoming judges will help with a more reralistic judging system. If a little tougher, but then i think constructive criticism from a rider is much better than some of the more 'ancient' judges that i really wonder what they really do know about the subject they are judging.
As fot the walk marks again i think there should be more walk, as in some of the newer novice tests but it should be a single co-efficient.
 
I find collectives useful but they can sway the end mark considerably when it comes to placings. I agree that perhaps they could only be out of 10 rather than x2.

What does everyone think about the "scales of training" collectives? These of course amount to 100 of the total marks rather than the usual 80 (over 50% in the case of P1
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Yes I judges Prelim 1 a few weeks ago and it was very strange when my collectives were about half the overall marks.
Overall I didnt like judging the test, mainly due to the lack of a clear collective mark for the impulsion. At this level I feel that going forward is soooo important, however the mark is included in the rhythm section, and was therefore (for me) more confusing.
 
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