Colour and temperament

I mentioned this before, the girl on petforums who bred a litter of chocolates to try to dispel the ‘bred for colour’ myth. No clue how successful she was. She did every health test possible.

I have zero experience of labs bar an aunt’s mad yellow, I think he needed a job, bless him, he was extremely destructive. The lady where the boys go for their holidays has black labs and is part of a gun dog group with a lot of blacks.

I would say re same litter that they can be ridiculously different. Brig was liver, Jake was black, massively different. The current two are both black and totally different.
 
Dobiegirl said:
My friends have a working fox red Lab, he had seen them working up in Scotland and put his name down for one, had to wait a couple of years and they were bred by a Laird.

He is an outstanding worker and their trainer who knows a thing or two reckons he would trial easily as he learns so quickly and is so switched on and focused. He really is the most beautiful looking dog but he is so nervous, its hard to believe he isnt gun-shy but obviously he isnt, my friend to demonstrate how nervous he was started to pick things out the laundry basket giving it a shake first and the dog looked like it was about to be beaten to death and he was on the other side of the room too.
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The daughter of that Laird own a horse on my yard and was showing me pictures of the newest litter yesterday
 
I have two terrier x poodle sisters, one silver beige, the other white with silver markings from the same litter. The white girl is chilled and cuddly the Silver beige is utterly nuts!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
'Chocolate' Labs did exist years ago, they were known as 'liver' (which sounds more appropriate to me for a working breed) at the time but seem to have become quite rare until about 30 or so years ago, when they became more common again. I assume but don't know as I haven't done the research that they were from one genetic strain. I am fairly sure that they have been interbred for colour rather than health. I know one person who had 2 apparently unrelated 'choc' bitches who fought to the point that she had to keep them separated - unheard of for Labs ime.

'Chocolate' is just a marketing ploy, imo, as is 'fox-red' - they are yellow!
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Fox red are not yellow in any way and friends Laird father has genetically proven this in his dogs.
 
A friend has 2 chocolate labs. One is from a backyard breeder, has had a ton of physical problems and isn't very bright. Her second one came from a breeder breeding for performance dogs. The second dog has a ton of drive and is a very nice worker. She was purchased for agility but my friend switched to obedience. She follows a big name trainer is tougher on the dog than I would ever be. A softer dog would have shut down on her by now. So far her bitch hasn't.
 
Five&Two said:
Fox red are not yellow in any way and friends Laird father has genetically proven this in his dogs.
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Yellow Labs have always ranged from fox-red to pale cream, often within the same litter, even when both parents were black. I don't know about the litter you are talking about but I would have thought that it was obvious that there are different genetic make-ups for each shade, just as there are for human/horse hair colours. However, that does not mean that the 'official' colour should not be 'yellow'.
 
ester said:
I think that’s because it’s a different gene to the liver gene.
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I don't think so, breeders decided that 'chocolate' sounded more friendly and pet-like than the working dogs' 'liver'. Poodles are called 'chocolate'. There must be genetic variations within the brown coat colour, the 2 bitches that I had, had very different coats, both in texture and shade. It could be said that one was 'milk chocolate' and the other 'plain chocolate';)
 
CorvusCorax said:
Some people need to read up on colour genetics, masking genes, alleles, dominant/recessive colours etc, as I mentioned earlier, a black dog can be genetically white....it's not as simple as 'a red dog isn't yellow'.
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In my black and white dogs, there is clearly brown in certain lights. I’d be very interested to read up on tricolours, very popular in the States, very rare here and the known decent breeder of them has stopped breeding.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Then there are the off colours, white, liver, blue. But a black dog can be genetically white, I told you it was convoluted!!
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I always thought it was the other way around? That the white gene “ masked” the genetic colour of the dog, so you could have two sables mate and produce white pups who *should* be sable in appearance but the colour is masked by the white gene and produces a Phenotypical white dog?
Whereas black is an accepted colour and a black dog is genetically black? Though I suppose they’re less common because they “ undesirable” in the show ring.
In terms of genes to colours and temperaments, in GSD, there was some old school thoughts I’ve heard behind the reasoning of the hatred of unrecognised colours, one being that white dogs were nervous wrecks ( unsubstantiated imho), blues and livers Are dilutes and do have health problems etc.
Labs aren’t my breed but I remember reading somewhere that there’s a gene in yellow labs that makes them calmer, making them good guide dogs but it also made them fat. Goodness knows the truth of that but I just thought it was funny!
 
I'll look at the Willis book tonight, there's a good few pages on the subject ;)

Black is not 'undesirable'? It's not common/trendy/popular but they're making a comeback, through certain kennels, my own black dog has been rated very good twice, would have been excellent with a breed survey, which he now has, but is missing an incisor :p

Whites have been undesirable since the breed's inception.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I'll look at the Willis book tonight, there's a good few pages on the subject ;)

Black is not 'undesirable'? It's not common/trendy/popular but they're making a comeback, through certain kennels, my own black dog has been rated very good twice, would have been excellent with a breed survey, which he now has, but is missing an incisor :p

Whites have been undesirable since the breed's inception.
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When I said blacks are “undesirable” I mean, not in the way whites are completely unwanted but in the show ring, that be KC or seiger shows a black will usually be lower down the line in a sea of strongly pigmented Black and Tans, same for bi colours and also pale sables, while all recognised, b&t are your “ classic look GSD”
 
ApolloStorm said:
I always thought it was the other way around? That the white gene “ masked” the genetic colour of the dog, so you could have two sables mate and produce white pups who *should* be sable in appearance but the colour is masked by the white gene and produces a Phenotypical white dog?
Whereas black is an accepted colour and a black dog is genetically black? Though I suppose they’re less common because they “ undesirable” in the show ring.
In terms of genes to colours and temperaments, in GSD, there was some old school thoughts I’ve heard behind the reasoning of the hatred of unrecognised colours, one being that white dogs were nervous wrecks ( unsubstantiated imho), blues and livers Are dilutes and do have health problems etc.
Labs aren’t my breed but I remember reading somewhere that there’s a gene in yellow labs that makes them calmer, making them good guide dogs but it also made them fat. Goodness knows the truth of that but I just thought it was funny!
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There are black guide dogs!

Just as with people the genes for temperament are not attached to the genes for colour. You get calm blacks and lively yellows. I know, we have had both and currently have a live-wire black and a calm yellow. I have also seen fat black Labs as well as fat yellow ones. We had a yellow, from a working breeder, who was very long-legged and of a very slim build, not the typical chunky Lab shape, so I think it is an old wives tale:)
 
Pearlsasinger said:
There are black guide dogs!

Just as with people the genes for temperament are not attached to the genes for colour. You get calm blacks and lively yellows. I know, we have had both and currently have a live-wire black and a calm yellow. I have also seen fat black Labs as well as fat yellow ones. We had a yellow, from a working breeder, who was very long-legged and of a very slim build, not the typical chunky Lab shape, so I think it is an old wives tale:)
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I had thought as much, but it just seemed like they had plucked it out of nowhere! Though, a DDB breeder who I attends the same ringcraft as me, is dead set that “ black mask” DDB are vicious and horrible, from her anecdotal experience!
I do think that temperament is genetic I’m not convinced of a colour link?
 
I can't add anything of value to this discussion but my friend had a black lab guide dog who was the most superb dog (she is now retired) and I don't think she'll ever have such a good guide dog again.

My personal experience of Labs is Harvey, our chocolate Lab. He is definitely a pet so I think I can call him chocolate. He also makes me just as happy as chocolate so...

I don't know what he's like compared to other brown Labs but we've lucked out as he is a dream; he doesn't chew, isn't destructive and he loves life, the vets, doesn't care about fireworks! We've had him for just under 18 months and he is 5 but he grew up in a home with 3 young kids and relatively inexperienced dog owners. He has also been pretty trainable so far (I've taught him a few "tricks" and other things) and we settled into a routine pretty quickly. That said, the partnership and working out how we work together has taken time and working out his bad habit (total over-excitement around other dogs) has been a year-long journey.

I never knew I needed a Lab but turns out I did! Maybe we'll have more in the future but I have an open mind.
 
Blazingsaddles said:
Absolute nonsense. It’s not the visual colour but the gene. There are many types of ‘yellow’ but the genetics remain the same.
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???? When I see her tomorrow I'll ask her to get me a copy of his reports etc and post the link for all you ' know it all's' dog people are more self righteous than horse people. ?? In the grand scheme of things there's no such thing as a bad or wrong colour in any animal.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Well, that can be caused by diet/weather too. The red bits on my black dog are nowt to with genetics lol.
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I know, I’ve seen the colour change in summer v winter, but Bear has definite brown in his coat, despite being b/w. I think tris need a copy of the gene from both parents. He’s not a tri. It may indeed be environmental. I’m aware of the genetics involved with colour.
 
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