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muffinino

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(Not sure if the correct place for this but not sure where is best!)

My Welsh cob colt is meant to be black with 4 socks, a star and a snip. For the last two years, has been but he's starting to get a lot of white hair in his coat and I say no! Not fair! I have always wanted a black section D and do not want more white to clean :p

I bought him in May 2011 and he was still on the tail-end of his moult, all black. Last spring he was the same, but this spring moult he has developed white hairs on his stifle, both sides, spreading out over his ribcage and his bum. It's mostly concentrated on his stifle, although I did notice a few white hairs on the right side of his face today. Could this just be the moult? He didn't have any in his winter coat or his last two summer coats.

He's just turned 3 but I can't how it would make just a dramatic change. He does have very light brown eyes which I read on here could indicate a smoky black, although I'm not sure they have white hairs on them.

I have some pics from last year I will try to post. He doesn't look in great condition in one or two (I think his first winter out was a shock!) but he looks better now. I don't have a decent camera 'phone at the moment so don't have up to date pics but he has lost the copper highlights he had (I'm 99% sure it was a copper deficiency).

Any ideas? Has anyone's black horse done this? Tell me he won't turn grey - although he'd stand out as I've never seen a grey pure Welsh cob!
 
This is his breeding:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/gwernewydd+sianco

He has mostly bays and blacks with a few dark bays/brown on his line. There are a few dark/liver chestnuts (Nebo Daniel is one) and a buckskin. His dam is bright bay, from what I remember, and Fronarth Victor, his sire, is black. Looking at the image searches, he
is possibly more a smoky black as he has the light brown at his stifle

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fr...p=9&tx=86.84613037109375&ty=81.38461303710937

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=fr...=12&tx=106.76922607421875&ty=54.4615478515625
 
Right, he looks a bit scrawny here but you can see his eye colour and skin colour where he had a mini-clip. These were taken between February and May last year.
34pggvk.jpg

1zdy71i.jpg

33eseiv.jpg

4sef4y.jpg


OMG they're massive, how do I resize?!
 
Ha, no, he's been on a balancer since December and has improved loads in condition. He's lost the ginger tinge to his mane, thank the gods! His tail is still quite babyish in these pics and is now completely black and a proper adult tail, iykwim.
 
According to allbreed, his sire is black and although it doesn't mention the dam's colour, her parents are listed as bay. So he doesn't have a grey parent and your image search and memory also confirms that neither parent is grey. Grey always shows, even with only one copy, so a horse must have a grey parent to be grey themselves.

Welshies are rife with sabino which causes white flecks/roaning as well as jagged edged markings. Its highly likely that you are seeing the sabino flecks as his summer coat comes through. My gelding has a sabino flecky spot on one elbow that's hard to see with his winter coat, but it shows clearly in his summer coat.
 
Faracat said:
According to allbreed, his sire is black and although it doesn't mention the dam's colour, her parents are listed as bay. So he doesn't have a grey parent and your image search and memory also confirms that neither parent is grey. Grey always shows, even with only one copy, so a horse must have a grey parent to be grey themselves.

Welshies are rife with sabino which causes white flecks/roaning as well as jagged edged markings. Its highly likely that you are seeing the sabino flecks as his summer coat comes through. My gelding has a sabino flecky spot on one elbow that's hard to see with his winter coat, but it shows clearly in his summer coat.
Click to expand...

Phew, drama queen panic over for now ;) F&D just likes to wind me up in to a hysteria!

I have seen loads of Welshies, all sections, with the sabino flecks on bays and chestnuts (not sure if this necessarily makes them roan) and the roans with this. In fact, there are a couple on my yard. I've just never seen it on a black, hence my confusion - doesn't take much, to be fair.
 
muffinino said:
He has a lovely face :) What an usual colour, I'm not sure I've seen one the same. Is he a cross with Welsh, did you mean? I wasn't sure if it was a cross or a kiss lol!
Click to expand...

lol yes hes a Welsh D X cobby type thingy lol!!! I used to clip his legs and everything out for showing but hes now retired from comps and we just do ridings and maybe a little TREC if there is anything on near us :)
 
Black Beastie said:
lol yes hes a Welsh D X cobby type thingy lol!!! I used to clip his legs and everything out for showing but hes now retired from comps and we just do ridings and maybe a little TREC if there is anything on near us :)
Click to expand...

Lovely, he looks very sweet. I clipped my coloured out last September and intend to show him a show cob this year. Think he prefers fun rides and hunting, though lol!
 
Faracat said:
Anything that has white markings (even a tiny star) will have a gene causing it/them. :)
Click to expand...

Ah, ok, I didn't make that link. His star is quite large and heart shaped and his snip is quite long (I may or may not call it his 'HP lightening bolt :D). On top of that he has four whites, so I guess he has quite a bit of white. Most of his family, up to three generations back at least, have 4 whites, too. Nebo Daniel had quite long socks at the back iirc which the chestnuts with sabino tend to have. He was liver chestnut and I have seen some pictures where he seems to have white splodges on his hind quarters but I haven't seen anything clearly enough to see if he has the sabino hairs.
 
muffinino said:
Ha, no, he's been on a balancer since December and has improved loads in condition. He's lost the ginger tinge to his mane, thank the gods! His tail is still quite babyish in these pics and is now completely black and a proper adult tail, iykwim.
Click to expand...

My boy (section D) gets a ginger tinted mane in the summer too - he is dark brown but looks black apart from his tan colored bits round his nose and belly and his ginger tinted mane in the summer :rolleyes::D
 
I think true brown is more likely to be flecked with brown, from what I understand. I quite like the highlighted look lol. As I said in my other thread, the white flecking seems more common in roans & chestnuts. He wasn't this colour last two sheds so I was a bit freaked out! I love him to bits, though, and he's such a poppet that ultimately he could be pink with yellow spots and I wouldn't care :D
 
The base colour makes no difference to sabino.

toxic_003.JPG


ETA.
As I said in my other thread, the white flecking seems more common in roans & chestnuts
Click to expand...

Chestnut is a base colour, roan is a modifying gene. All roans have mixed base colour and white hairs on their bodies.

blueroan_eddie_eyed_hancock1.jpg


^ Black based roan.

strawberry-roan-1udljib.jpg


^ Chestnut roan.
 
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Thanks Faracat, great examples. I don't think I said quite what I mean in the previous post lol. I was thinking more of the roans you see with very obvious white flecking, as opposed to the roan coloured coat, iykwim? It's probably just where the white hairs are more or less concentrated to create the roan colour, rather than white flecking like you'd see on a chestnut. Not sure if that makes sense but I know what I mean lol!
 
So sabino/rabicano 'roaning' rather than the true Roan gene?

ETA. I should have said that the black sabino is a pure arab and that it shows how our rules of what makes a 'coloured horse' are subjective. Both Welshies and arabs have lots of sabino in their gene pool, but no tobiano.
 
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