Colour genetic experts? (gsd)

Bossdog

Bossdog

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I was recently sent some pics of Boss' dam from his breeder, she is listed as sable but over time faded out almost completly to a yellowy white with the dark mask... is this very common in gsds? Is this dominant/recessive, easily passed on? Just curiosity (i'm not thinking of breeding before that wagon starts rollin'!), I've always been interested in genes but can't find much info on this particular feature!

Julesx
 
Sables do not fade, they generally go darker with age. A sable dog is often used to correct paling colour. Black and golds do lighten up quite considerably, so possibly the colour was just wrong on her registration. I have seen all sorts of weird colours given for GSDs but if you look at the breed standard half of them don't exist. Malcolm Willis's book on genetics is excellent if you are interested. I am not sure if it is true but I was always told that a true sable always has a black tip to its tail, whereas a paling black and gold does not.
 
Boss is going darker as he gets older (losing the flecking across his withers, almost now completely black), does this make him a sable? Sorry, I'm easily confused!

This is pic of said dog, breeder said she had a black saddle and tail until she was quite old, then she went like this!
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(she is by a white dog and out of sable I think), does the white gene have anything to do with it? Boss' sire is black so a mystery to me, why not just stick to black/gold and sables?! **dives for cover**
 
Tbh most breeders do stick to black and gold and sables
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There is now a real trend for whites, blues etc but these colours are faulty under the breed standard. I had a litter with 2 blues in and on the advice of Dr Willis I gave them away without papers. They did actually go darker as they got older and became black and gold
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Boss' mum is certainly an unusual colour, but I would think white and sable is a pretty unusual mix. Have been back and had a look at your pics of Boss, he doesn't look typically sable but if he is going darker then he could be. Sable is a dominant gene (I think) so it would make sense that the sable has come through over the white in his genes. But I am useless on genetics so that last bit could be a load of b*****ks
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Jules, if this helps, here are two of the sables I have owned, top two are my current male at eight months and 1 year and bottom two is one of our old females who was a 'gold' sable who paled out as she got older.
Sables are normally grey mixed with the base colour (tan, gold, red gold etc)

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Boss' Mum looks like a black and gold which has completely paled out. Never seen a GSD with no pigment apart from the black mask before.

I would say Boss, from pics, is a black and tan.


Interesting website here
http://www.arlett.de/sables/index.html
 
why not just stick to black/gold and sables?! **dives for cover**

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Exactly....whilst I do like a nice all black, Capt v Stephanitz, the founder of the breed, was not a big fan, apparently....
 
Thats a brilliant link H-H, and even I could understand it
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Some gorgeous dark sables on there, I have a weakness for sables (suppose its in my pedigree because of Granit, and later Consort
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) but in the 70s I think they definitely had a bad deal in the show ring. One judge actually said about a lovely sable bitch of my Mums," what a shame about her colour "
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Agree about sticking to the good old basic colours, but as long as people can charge twice the price for a "rare" white it ain't going to happen.
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I love sable GSD's, I had one a few (cough
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) years back and I did try and show her, one judge said much the same to me as to your mum MurphysMinder, "I suppose 'it's' a sable, shame...." My girl was from Consort lines too. She stayed the same colour all her life, and all her pups were black and gold, shame...
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I apologize for going of topic (also sorry for that it takes me some time to get to the point) but in Sweden the White Shepherd dog, also called White GSD (or Berger Blanc Suisse), can develop a mental disorder which always (according to what I've heard) leads to euthanasia. And it's not detectable at young age, as I understand it, it can develop before 1 years of age up to 2 years age. If your dog is more than 2 years old and haven't got it, it wont get it.
Don't know how common it is, I only know what I've read and that has been mostly from dog psychologist describing cases/talking about it, but not having any over all breed-statistic about it.

What I wonder was if it's just a Swedish problem or if anyone of you had heard anything about it? To try and put it shortly they seem to become unpredictable and acting irrational.

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Sorry again, but I'm curious.
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Thanks for all the info guys, gives me something to read up on this afternoon instead of housework! H-H, that link is superb and I love the pictures, funnily enough, I always thought the "original" gsds were a kind of sable, they certainly look it in the old pics.

FLH, don't know anything about the white/mental disorder but I certainly have never seen a white working GSD (there probably are some, but I've never seen one). I do think though they have a different personality to black/golds and sables but perhaps that is because they are bred for colour rather than personality/working ability? Not keen on them myself, I tend to find them a bit nervy but that is just my experience!
 
Oh and H-H, just wanted to say whilst your sable is lovely, I LOVE your old girl, she was a stunner, exactly my kind of dog!!! I would love to breed that type one day (when I have the finances/time/space/knowledge/back up/propesctive pet owners!)...she has the same look as my boy, do you know her breeding?

Jules x
 
Aw, cheers Jules, she was an Argus Aducht grand daughter on her sire's side (Xiwar von Oberbeckerland) and her mother had lots of Kirschental (sp?) breeding, lots of working shepherd (and I mean shepherd, as in shepherding) lines, she used to herd me and my mates up quite a lot!!!

Although it doesn't come across in the picture, she was a proper sable, my mum found another her today, looking much greyer!

She was a superstar, the best character in a dog I have ever come across, she was like a childminder and a best friend to me, she was never, ever agressive but wouldn't stand down from anyone or anything.
She could have gone to the top in the ring (which is why we bought her) and in work but she broke a leg very young and was never 100pc sound but lived to 14 with little or no other complications (she was HD clear).

I doubt I shall ever have another like her.

Oh and MM, Dr Willis gave Juno a RCC, and said if she'd have been older he'd have given her the full ticket, so there were some sable fans back in the day
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I too love looking at the animals on that Arlett link and am pleased to see more sables doing well - I think a lot of people are bringing the very dark sables over from East Germany and the Czech republic, no bad thing in my opinion!

ETA: Here is Argus
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/8657.html
 
I will probably get shot down for this, but I think the reason why there are sometimes temperament problems in white GSDs is because it is such a small gene pool. About 40/50 years ago white puppies tended to be put down at birth
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More recently there hs been quite a demand for them but of necessity I think quite a lot of close inbreeding has gone on which is never ideal. I do know there are breeders of whites who hip score etc, but it just does not sit comfortably with me to aim to breed a colour which is considered a disqualifying fault. Should add that I have never bred one, but if I did it wouldn't have been put down but homed without papers.

Fazermum, we used to own Consort, although he was a lovely colour and a very successful show dog, he was the thickest GSD I have ever known
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H-H, don't know if your Mum remembers mums lovely sable bitch Evita, she shattered a hip which cut short her show career but she also won under Malcolm W, it was Jonny Johnson who made the negative comment about her colour
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Would you believe, MM, I just picked up the 1981 handbook to check, out of all of them on the shelf beside me, and there she is on page 103 - with a tribute to her on her retirement due to the fall.
 
That is spooky
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When Mum went into the care home and we had to sell her house I gave all her old year books to GSD Welfare, tbh I don't really think I was thinking straight (bit of an emotional time obviously) and I really regret it now, although don't regret helping welfare of course. I have a few of the George Evans magazines and thats it, and they are mainly embarrassing when I look back at my notes
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Well if our paths ever cross in RL you are very welcome to have a good nosy through our bookcase in the back bedroom
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Handbooks from the 50s to the 90s and more George Evans mags than you can shake a stick at (It's bad when you can read about the event of your own birth/being stuck in the back of a Fiat Uno in a baby seat and taken all over the country every weekend)

Sorry for going OT Jules. But we are still sable fans
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