Colour genetics! Bay TB with silver tail...

[tobiano1984]

This is one for the colour genetics whizzes - I have 3 yo TB who is a lovely bay, very orangey/red. He has a silver tail, and his black points are also silvered (legs, nose, ears). His mane is black although has some highlights (although that might just be from the sun).

It also seems to be getting lighter. At first I thought it was a case of 'foal tail' when they have their lighter baby tails, but comparing to racing photos from a year ago he seems to be more silvered, his tail is growing silver, although some is still black, and his legs are definitely getting more pale.

What I wondered, is where this comes from? I've checked his pedigree and all his parents/grandparents/GGparents are standard bay or chestnut.

Here's his pedigree - http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?z=kMvbB3&d=maximilianthefirst&x=0&y=0

Sire is Holy Roman Emperor (Danehill, Danzig, Secretariat lines), Dam is Deep Bleu (Kyllachy, Pivotal, Reprimand lines).

I'm assuming it's some sort of throw back to Arabs? Would love to hear if anyone can shed any light on it!

here are some pics, they don't show it off well as the light isn't great. In the pic of his bum his tail is a bit yellow with stable stains, if I wash it with purple shampoo it comes up lovely and silver, as do his legs.

 

[Pinkvboots]

You need Faracat on here she knows all about the colour his a lovely horse a friend of mine has an Arab with very similar colouring to yours.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

You need Faracat on here she knows all about the colour his a lovely horse a friend of mine has an Arab with very similar colouring to yours.

Was going to say the same or ask if there is a saddlers wells horsey in the pedigree as on of his offspring I know has the same markings.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

The white/silver colouring comes from the Northern Dancer lines which your lad has a double dose of. It's more common than people realise.

 

[Wagtail]

I have heard sabino can have this effect. I had a much darker bay gelding with silvering through his mane and tail, though his was less obvious. Beautiful horse by the way.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The white/silver colouring comes from the Northern Dancer lines which your lad has a double dose of. It's more common than people realise.

That's really interesting.

Our boy has Northern Dancer both sides and has come out a light bay with dark mane and tail.

 

[tobiano1984]

Yes I think it was Faracat who said the silver tail is called a Gulastra Plume!

no Saddlers Wells in the line but yes Northern Dancer - although can't see any greys/silvers in Northern Dancer lines?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It is a Gulastra Plume and it's thought to be a 'sabino' thing, so a mutation of the KIT gene. All KIT mutations add white and are nothing to do with the Grey gene. You are quite right to blame arabs for this, as Gulastra himself was an arabian. Your horse also looks like a wild bay (photo from the rear showing his legs is what makes me think this), rather than a normal bay.

I've posted this chap's photo before, but he really has the most striking GP (which can occur in the mane too, but is more common in the tail).

 

[ester]

Yes I thought that re. the wild bay.

 

[tobiano1984]

Interesting! What is a wild bay?

And is this mutation of the KIT gene a random event, or inherited? I wouldn't have thought there was any sabino in a purebred TB..!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

TB's have loads of sabino, again they got it due to their arabian heritage. A minimal sabino can have a tiny star or a white heel. The mutations are inherited (for example, tobiano is also a KIT mutation), although a new one could occur.

ETA - your horse has a very obvious white sock and the edge doesn't look that straight, so there's your sabino.

A wild bay has the A+ version of agouti and it is characterised by not having much black on the legs.

Edited again TA - here's a wild bay arabian. Sorry about the boots, but his hind legs demonstrate the lack of black well. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Halterstandingshotarabianone.jpg

 

[tobiano1984]

TB's have loads of sabino, again they got it due to their arabian heritage. A minimal sabino can have a tiny star or a white heel. The mutations are inherited (for example, tobiano is also a KIT mutation), although a new one could occur.

A wild bay has the A+ version of agouti and it is characterised by not having much black on the legs.

Ahh ok! Fascinating. I'd love to learn more about colour genetics, I did look to see if there was a MSc in it (my BSc is Equine Science) but not in the UK it seems...

 

[Darcydoo]

Interesting my TB (bay)has a tiny star, greying at the top of tail and is very roan in winter ,Sabino ???

 

[thatsmygirl]

We had a roan when I worked in racing but had to passport him as bay as they wouldn't except a tb being roan. We also had a chestnut with striped legs, what would that be? Iv never seen anything like it before or since. The stripes were darker chestnut and the marking was like a tiger that sort of pattern

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Interesting my TB (bay)has a tiny star, greying at the top of tail and is very roan in winter ,Sabino ???

Could be Rabicano. Is the roaning mostly on the flanks?

TMG - You don't get true dark headed roans with the Roan gene in TB's as far as I'm aware, but there are other genes that cause white flecks in the coat. Rabicano and Sabino both can do this. RE the chestnut with striped legs, there are two options. The fist is that the hose was actually a chestnut Dun, but not was a pure TB. The second option is countershading.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

It's only recently that the General Stud Book have accepted black tb's, they were always deemed as brown. Same with the multi-coloured things that grace the racecourse, they have only recently been allowed. Before even excessive sabino splashes were'nt look on too fondly.

We have a beautiful big horse at work just now with a big white blaze, roaning on the flanks and white through the top of his tail. I dont think he has any socks ... Another mare we have is a very dark bay with roaning across the flanks and body. She has a big white blaze (hence her name - Blazinwhiteface lol) and 2 hind socks. A truly beautiful horse to look at if you ignore the white around the eyeball. Neither of these horses are closely related to Northern Dancer if at all.

Colours in tb's are quite varied but still have strict rules when registering them.

 

[Spring Feather]

Faracat, do you know at what age/stage Gulastra Plume starts to show properly? I have a black sabino Oldenburg weanling which I am retaining. Her mother is homozygous black and sabino. She has always thrown foals with a fair amount of sabino markings, and this filly has a huge blaze and 4 white stockings ... however, she has a lot of white in her tail. Now initially I thought it was rabicano, and it may well be (even though she does not appear to have any roaning) but I'm not sure if she'll retain just a skunk tail, or if it will develop more white hairs as time goes on. Any thoughts?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm sorry that I can't answer you with any certainty as I haven't had much to do with young foals or read much about the differences between foal coats and adult coats in horses with fancier colours. The one in the photo above was a yearling at the time the photo was taken, if that's any help.

 

[Spring Feather]

That is a help, thank you. She has a definite skunk tail at the moment and I'm hoping that that's all she'll ever have. I've had rabicanos but always bought them as adult horses, not babies, so I just wondered.

 

[Darcydoo]

Yes mostly , seems to be creeping further love these colour threads x

 

[Lyle]

I'd call his colour a wild bay The lack of strong black points is a giveaway

 

[Moggy in Manolos]

Fascinating about the GP Faracat Nell has silver colouration through her tail too, it has every colour in it in fact and she is dark bay with what I think you call Blagdon through her coat which shows in her summer coat

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yep Blagdon and sabino are the same thing, so that could be why she has some silver in her tail.

 

[Moggy in Manolos]

Yep Blagdon and sabino are the same thing, so that could be why she has some silver in her tail.

Ah I did not know that they were the same thing, thanks Faracat, the fountain of all knowledge on colours