Colour genetics... How do you get perlino from grey ancestry?

[cullord]

Really curious, as thought grey was a fairly dominant gene and of there is solid grey ancestry - where would perlino and cremello come from?

As in...

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quejicoso

And is there any chance of the cremello stallion with this breeding throwing grey stock himself?

Thank you experts

 

[ester]

If you have a double dilute the grey will not show.

Grey is dominant so if you have a copy of grey from just one parent it will show. If you also have a copy of cream from one parent it will be covered by the grey, so as foals would have been eg palo/buckskin that then greyed out. If you have 2 of these breed = double dilute foal with grey that doesn't show.


I know there has been an issue with perlino/cremello with grey and even greater susceptibility to melanomas, so if you had one it is arguably important to know if it is also grey.

 

[ester]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/archive/index.php/t-615254.html

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Grey isn't fairly dominant - it IS dominant. This means that only one copy is needed for a horse to be a grey and grey out. Horses with only one grey gene have a 50% chance of having a non-grey foal (with no grey gene, so it won't grey out) if the other parent has no grey. If both parents have one copy of grey, then you have a 25% chance of a non grey foal. So you can have several generations of grey horses and then get a non-grey. A horse with two grey genes will always have foals that will grey out (but they could only have one copy themselves, if the other parent doesn't give them one too).

Perlino and Cremello are caused by Cream. It is perfectly possible for horses to have both Grey and Cream eg a horse is born palomino and then greys out. Ester is quite right, double dilutes with grey can have issue, so a double dilute with a grey parent/parents should really be DNA tested for grey as the coat is so pale anyway, you can't see visible greying out.

 

[cullord]

So in the above stallion's pedigree where did the cream come from? There's solid grey ancestry on both sides going right back for generations. Why would that suddenly throw up a Perlino who then sired a Cremello out of a grey mare? Weird.

And the stallion is definitely a mature cremello, not any grey. See http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/quejicoso for attached photo.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Has the stallion been DNA tested for grey?

There will be cream in his ancestry. Remember greys are not born grey, they are born a colour and then grey out over time. Unless the colour at birth is recorded, that information is lost when the horse is just called 'grey' on his/her passport. I promise you it's not weird at all.

 

[ester]

you can't tell exactly where because it isn't recorded. They have recorded the horse's final adult colour/the fact that the foal was greying out. You would need to know what colour they all were as foals but somewhere along the line cream has been carried through, hidden by grey so that both dam and sire have a single cream gene which are both inherited to produce the cremello. You wouldn't see the grey on the cremello unless you DNA tested but with both parents grey it is there genetically.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

To show how how greys are born a colour look at this -

This is my grey, she was born chestnut and greyed out quickly. If you just looked at the second photo, would you know what colour she had been born?

If she had had one copy of cream , she would have been born palomino, but would still have greyed out, so again the 'real colour' is hidden by the grey. Although a DNA test would let you know what colour genes she has.

 

[cullord]

He's a full Lustiano foaled in 2004 with lots of photos of his ancestors viewable at the Allbreeds site - showing definite greys. All his foals are dun/cream/palomino. I just wondered if there would be any chance of them (his youngstock) greying out. I was considering one of his fillies who's out of a smokey palomino mare and palomino herself.

Has the stallion been DNA tested for grey?

There will be cream in his ancestry. Remember greys are not born grey, they are born a colour and then grey out over time. Unless the colour at birth is recorded, that information is lost when the horse is just called 'grey' on his/her passport. I promise you it's not weird at all.

 

[cullord]

If I breed anything with grey in its close ancestry I just assume the birth colour may very well grey out. Your little foal there is already showing the typical goggles around her eyes.

As I try for palomino, I generally avoid grey ancestry.

To show how how greys are born a colour look at this -

This is my grey, she was born chestnut and greyed out quickly. If you just looked at the second photo, would you know what colour she had been born?

If she had had one copy of cream , she would have been born palomino, but would still have greyed out, so again the 'real colour' is hidden by the grey. Although a DNA test would let you know what colour genes she has.

 

[ester]

I think he has to have two copies of grey because of the parents being grey which would mean all of his foals would grey out, Faracat?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

All his foals are dun/cream/palomino.

Do you mean Buckskin? Unless he carries the Dun gene as well as Cream, he cannot pass Dun to his foals.

I think that your best bet is to DNA test him for grey. If he has no grey, then you know that he cannot sire grey foals from non-grey mares. If he has one grey gene, then each foal has a 50% chance of inheriting it. If he has two grey genes, then all his foals will inherit grey from him.

http://animalgenetics.eu/Equine/Coat-Color-Testing/equine-coat-colour-index.html

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think he has to have two copies of grey because of the parents being grey which would mean all of his foals would grey out, Faracat?

It is possible for two greys to have non grey foals depending on how many copies of grey each horse has.

If both parents have one copy of grey each, they will both look grey, but have a 25% chance of having a non grey foal. Basically neither parent passes on their copy of grey to the foal. You also have a 50% chance of a heterozygous grey foal and a 25% chance of a homozygous grey foal, if the foal has two heterozygous grey parents.

 

[ester]

Ah yes was confusing self!

Essentially OP I would get the foal tested if colour is important to you and he isn't/suggest the stallion owner gets him tested.

 

[Casey76]

His foals will be buckskin (cream on bay) rather than dun.

As Faracat says, the grey "covers" the "true" colour of the coat, so although all of the photos may show a grey horse in it's adult coat, they would have been born bay or chestnut (fyi, chestnut is a fairly rare colour in Iberians, and can demand a higher price)

 

[Bernster]

Head hurting! But amazing to see that colour change from birth !

 

[cullord]

Do you mean Buckskin? Unless he carries the Dun gene as well as Cream, he cannot pass Dun to his foals.

I think that your best bet is to DNA test him for grey. If he has no grey, then you know that he cannot sire grey foals from non-grey mares. If he has one grey gene, then each foal has a 50% chance of inheriting it. If he has two grey genes, then all his foals will inherit grey from him.

http://animalgenetics.eu/Equine/Coat-Color-Testing/equine-coat-colour-index.html

Yes, buckskin.

None of his foals to date have greyed out from what I can see on his stud page, so I assume he doesn't carry grey.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Your little foal there is already showing the typical goggles around her eyes.

Yes, the poor love actually started to go grey in the womb.

Yes, buckskin.

None of his foals to date have greyed out from what I can see on his stud page, so I assume he doesn't carry grey.

That certainly stacks the odds in favour of him being non-grey, but if you don't want to have the possibility of a grey foal at all, you really need to know his DNA result.

 

[creamsoda]

We had a Cremello mare who had grey parents. However she did have palomino and buckskin in her family tree.