Colour genetics - roan?

[Erlenbeks]

Hi there,
This is my two year old filly Savannah. Her dam is black, the sire is a leopard Appaloosa.

she is definitely Appaloosa as she has the typical striped feet.

however, she seems to have white hairs everywhere on her body... what colour would you call this? Could she be a roan / varnish roan?
many thanks!!!

 

[Lipglosspukka]

From my understanding, at least one parent needs to be roan for the offspring to be roan.

Could she not just be slowly spotting out?

 

[Cloball]

Isn't she cute! ?

She looks LP to me which is sometimes called varnish roan. Confusingly this is totally different to true roan. LP gives the appie characteristics you described. I don't see true roan which typically gives inverted Vs over the knees and a dark head. @Lipglosspukka is right a parent must be roan to inherit it but it can be sort of hidden in spotties.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Pretty pony but please don't call her appaloosa. She is a spotted pony and currently colouring out. She may well end up varnished roan.

 

[shamrock2021]

Sorry to burst your bubble.She looks like she just graying out to me and will probably end up completely white. I say she is just your standard gray .

 

[Erlenbeks]

From my understanding, at least one parent needs to be roan for the offspring to be roan.

Could she not just be slowly spotting out?

Good point. How long can spotting out take? ?

 

[Erlenbeks]

Sorry to burst your bubble.She looks like she just graying out to me and will probably end up completely white. I say she is just your standard gray .

Ah, but she never had the grey goggles that I have seen in other greys. Isn’t that usually the case with grays?

 

[Erlenbeks]

Pretty pony but please don't call her appaloosa. She is a spotted pony and currently colouring out. She may well end up varnished roan.

Can I ask what the difference is between Appaloosa and Spotted? Or is it just that Appaloosa is a breed? I have a Falabella who I was told is a varnish roan appaloosa - is that wrong then? Thank you!!!

 

[Erlenbeks]

Isn't she cute! ?

She looks LP to me which is sometimes called varnish roan. Confusingly this is totally different to true roan. LP gives the appie characteristics you described. I don't see true roan which typically gives inverted Vs over the knees and a dark head. @Lipglosspukka is right a parent must be roan to inherit it but it can be sort of hidden in spotties.

thank you! That makes sense!

 

[vhf]

Someone with more recent knowledge than me will be along in a minute and i'd be delighted to be updated, but from what I remember...
A black and a leopard could produce a huge variety of colours and patterns. I'm sure I remember reading a paper in the '90s saying that a leopard spot sire had thrown foals with 32 different colour types.

They almost certainly couldn't produce a grey, because one parent must always be grey for that to happen, and leopard spot would only show over grey in a young animal - grey appears progressively, but would eventually 'hide' the action of the spot genes?

True roan is a different gene to the spotting ones, but could exist in the same animal. The effect could be tricky to spot at a single point in time. From memory, it's quite an interesting one in its own right!

Varnish roan is one colour variant of the spotting genes involved in the leopard spotting pattern inheritance and is a likely outcome of a black to spot cross.

I have known the change from solid to almost white/blanket/spotted to last several years, and I'm not even a spotty aficionado!

 

[Pippity]

Sorry to burst your bubble.She looks like she just graying out to me and will probably end up completely white. I say she is just your standard gray .

But neither parent is grey?

 

[Erlenbeks]

But neither parent is grey?

no neither is a grey.

 

[Pippity]

no neither is a grey.

Sorry, I wasn't clear! I was pointing out that if neither parent is grey then your lovely little filly can't be grey.

 

[ester]

She's varnish

Also re. use of the term appaloosa, the general use is appaloosa for colour, Appaloosa for the breed

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Appaloosa is not a colour but often used mistakenly to describe something with spots. The name appaloosa was derived from the Palouse region where the Nez Perce indians lived. Many but not all of their horses were spotted. They became known as Palouse horses, this in time became appaloosa. It refers to a breed not a colour. Appaloosas are classed as horses not ponies though their minimum height is I believe still 14hhs which we call a pony over here.

If this little filly does not have a grey parent and by that I mean one with the 'greying gene', she cannot be grey.

 

[ester]

No, I was clearing up the usage which is what is used on most colour genetics sites. capital/not capital. I'm well aware of the history of the breed!

 

[Cloball]

Grey can also hide in spotties particularly few spots but it isn't desirable in spotties for obvious reasons so not often bred in.

Looks fairly typical for LP. Black base spotties can go funny bronzey colours due to the LP effect.

I was under the impression Appaloosa referred to the American breed as there are European spotted breeds that it wouldn't be correct to call appaloosa. The confusion comes as the genetics for the spotties have mostly be done in America so are often called the appaloosa genes.

I think the colours changes over many years much like grey. Have a look at @ycbm s spottie who is almost white now.

Not the most up to date last time I checked but lots of interesting stuff if you like genetics ?
https://www.appaloosaproject.co/

 

[ester]

yup appaloosa genes, appaloosa colours, Appaloosa breed

 

[Errin Paddywack]

My apologies ester for getting pedantic. One of my pet hates is people using appaloosa to describe a horse's colour. I have heard of vets using it on official documents without any qualifying description, i.e. bay, chestnut etc. On its own as a colour description it is meaningless as there are so many colour variations. Have to confess to being a bit anal about it.

 

[Erlenbeks]

My apologies ester for getting pedantic. One of my pet hates is people using appaloosa to describe a horse's colour. I have heard of vets using it on official documents without any qualifying description, i.e. bay, chestnut etc. On its own as a colour description it is meaningless as there are so many colour variations. Have to confess to being a bit anal about it.

fair enough. Actually my filly is passported as blanket spot and is a Dartmoor / Shetland and American Miniature Cross. X

 

[Erlenbeks]

fair enough. Actually my filly is passported as blanket spot and is a Dartmoor / Shetland and American Miniature Cross. X

Grey can also hide in spotties particularly few spots but it isn't desirable in spotties for obvious reasons so not often bred in.

Looks fairly typical for LP. Black base spotties can go funny bronzey colours due to the LP effect.

I was under the impression Appaloosa referred to the American breed as there are European spotted breeds that it wouldn't be correct to call appaloosa. The confusion comes as the genetics for the spotties have mostly be done in America so are often called the appaloosa genes.

I think the colours changes over many years much like grey. Have a look at @ycbm s spottie who is almost white now.

Not the most up to date last time I checked but lots of interesting stuff if you like genetics ?
https://www.appaloosaproject.co/

my mind is genuinely blown. ? it’s so complex! PS my filly’s passport says blanket spot. X

 

[Errin Paddywack]

She is very cute, would love to see how her colour changes as she grows up.

 

[Cloball]

I was reading about British Spotted pony breeding and we seem to have lost of lot of the spotted bloodlines even though they are old lines so they have to breed in American breeds. There is evidence to suggest Welsh spotties in the past too but obviously that went out with breed standard which I think is a shame. European spotted horses used to be a lot more common but it went out of fashion at some point and got bred out also a shame. But then I like a rainbow ? of horses.

 

[QuantockHills]

Sorry, I wasn't clear! I was pointing out that if neither parent is grey then your lovely little filly can't be grey.

i'm afraid I have to disagree.... my boy (an Irish Draught) is from a black stallion and chestnut mare... and he's grey. I understand from a gene expert that you need to look at the grandparents as well....

 

[Pippity]

i'm afraid I have to disagree.... my boy (an Irish Draught) is from a black stallion and chestnut mare... and he's grey. I understand from a gene expert that you need to look at the grandparents as well....

The grey gene (G) is dominant, so if it's present it will always show. Is it possible that one of your horse's parents was just very late greying out?

Ester, do you have any other suggestions on how this is possible?

 

[QuantockHills]

The grey gene (G) is dominant, so if it's present it will always show. Is it possible that one of your horse's parents was just very late greying out?

Ester, do you have any other suggestions on how this is possible?

he's 12 i think and still black... but his dame or sire were grey....?

 

[Pippity]

he's 12 i think and still black... but his dame or sire were grey....?

Would you mind telling me who he is? Feel free to PM if you'd prefer.

 

[ester]

The grey gene (G) is dominant, so if it's present it will always show. Is it possible that one of your horse's parents was just very late greying out?

Ester, do you have any other suggestions on how this is possible?

It's possible only if one of the parents was a slow greyer, there are some lines which grey very slowly (connies, pre, and I know a warmblood) so might have appeared non-grey at the time.
If the parents really aren't grey, Dad was someone else

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Pippity is right, grey gene is dominant so always shows if present, but some horses are very slow in greying out so the chestnut mare for instance may have greyed out later. A friend of mine bred a solid bay from an appaloosa who was known to have t he greying gene. I can't remember now if the sire was appaloosa or TB. The daughter looked a normal bay but as she aged went bay roan and eventually greyed out but took a long time. Many greys are born solid chestnut.

 

[Snowfilly]

Either 1) Sire or dam were registered before they turned grey and only their base colour was recorded

2) sire or dam are grey but are very slow greying

3) one of the parents is incorrect.

4) One of the parents is carrying a W gene for one of the white patterns and you’ve got a horse that’s basically one big white spot (I don’t know if those genes exist in IDs)

Grey cannot skip generations; it always expresses itself.