Colour - lovely example of a Wild Bay >>>>>>>>>>>

[Minnies_Mum]

Is my boy wild bay, I've always thought so but not sure. He has the faded black points, mealy muzzle, faint dorsal stripe and a mane that's black, with some chestnutty bits at the side and white hairs flecked through. Hackney x Welsh sec D, if that helps.

 

[flirtygerty]

I've replied PS.

Dorsal stripes are interesting as they don't always indicate a true Dun. For example Buckskins can have them (which can seriously confuse people), plus I have seen a few chestnut arabs (no Dun in the breed) with them.

For anyone interested in colour this website is a good start. http://whitehorseproductions.com/equinecolor.html

so what colour was the horse, sounds like mine only he has bits of black just above the coronet band

 

[PolarSkye]

so what colour was the horse, sounds like mine only he has bits of black just above the coronet band

Chestnut with sabino - no dark markings on her legs feet at all - just in her mane and tail.

P

 

[Meowy Catkin]

HH - Here is an interesting site that talks about dorsal stripes and how to differentiate between Dun factor markings and those caused by countershading (which is what i believe the dorsal stripe is on the bay you posted). http://www.grullablue.com/colors/dun_factor_markings.htm

SS2 - the above link is also relevant to the photo you posted. Again the horse looks like a bright bay but with extensive countershading from your description.

This horse shows super countershading caused by Sooty on his back and legs. He is NOT dun (pure bred arab). He's on the white horse productions site linked to further up the thread.

MM - I think there's too much black pigment (even if faded) for him to be a wild bay. I think he could be bay plus pangare (his muzzle is very pale) and sabino (the white socks are jagged edged and it could have caused the white hairs in the mane too).

 

[Sukistokes2]

Thank you Faracat, I always wondered, she was a lovely looking girl.

 

[Minnies_Mum]

Thanks Faracat, I wondered about pangare causing his blondy bits, hadn't realised sabino could cause the mane streaks. He his a few bits (under his mane and on his wither) that have white hairs in sort of small roany patches but they've got more obvious as he's got older so I thought I was just old age!

 

[fatpiggy]

So what would you call a horse with a red/sorrel base body, no black points to speak of, white socks, some small patches/flecks of white in isolated places in the coat (a little splash on the chest - about the size of a wine glass and some other tiny patches), white socks, a dorsal stripe in the summer, and a black mane and tail with definite strands/plumes of red?

P

My Welsh x mare was a ginger-biscuit chestnut, no black points or tips, the odd white spot, a dorsal stripe when she fancied one, and when I got her a black mane and tail with gold and silver hairs underneath. Her mane did go body coloured after the first year I had her, but her tail remained largely black. Welshies do seem to have colour-ways all of their own. I think yours and mine live in the same subset-undecided!!

 

[dianchi]

Just to add for giggles

My youngster has alternated between black to knee/hock and black only to fetlock dependant on season- thoughts
Also sometimes has a stripe and sometimes doesnt!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

D - do you have any photos?

 

[deb_l222]

I'm loving this thread, it's good to learn new things every day!!

Have I got this right though. My mare's black bits extended past her knees and hocks so is that counter shading? She also had what you would call a semi dorsal stripe, as it started midway along her back. Is this also counter shading, rather than a true dorsal stripe?

Not the best piccie of her but it's not a bad one of her legs lol. She was Arab x Hanoverian if breed makes a difference.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Having lots of black on the legs means that she's just a normal bay, the part dorsal stripe (with no dun gene to cause it) indicates a small amount of countershading.

Sometimes people describe bays as 'bay with black points' which is a tautology. Having the black points is part of being bay (if the black points weren't there, the horse would be chestnut). So saying 'bay with black points' is equivalent to saying 'palomino with a pale mane and tail' as having the pale mane and tail is part of the colour palomino. Now of course the bay could have long white stocking which cover the black legs, just as a palomino could have sooty causing lots of black pigment covering up it's colour. Those are worth saying as it's something extra going on (bay sabino - if it's sabino causing the white stockings - and sooty palomino).

 

[criso]

and you thought bays was just boring bay.

I have one that I think has sooty as he has markings a little like the one in the picture some times of the year and has very pronounced dapples.

In summer he's a very golden bright bay and winter a rich reddish blood bay if unclipped.

However during spring coat change he gets much darker for about a month. In the picture below some of the dark has come out and lighter bits are showing though.

Then that all comes out and he goes really light. Below you can see last bits of dark on top and the summer colour almost through.

His passport which is french says Bai Fonce which I think it dark bay. It surprised me at first as when I got him he was obviously bright bay but now I wonder if they registered him in spring

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Bay's aren't dull at all and as you stated, with sooty, they can have countershading and dapples. You then get some very, very attractive coats IMO.

 

[sasquatch]

S - The horse in your signature looks like a dark brown or seal brown if you prefer (they both mean the same thing).

That's him with his winter coat

correct me if I'm wrong, but the dapples indicate he has sooty as well?
as I haven't trimmed off his feather, either, I couldn't help but notice on his 3 black legs he has the same white/cream/silver coloured hair growing in his feather, mostly down the inside of the leg (there's a few white/silvery hairs on his white leg, but that may just be due to the white) and his zebra markings are coming back.
I think he's just an oddity, but found the silvery hair interesting as the legs are most definitely black, and it stars at and below the knee, not anywhere near his lighter patches on his shoulders/chest/armpits

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yes, dapples are often sooty at work. It adds black pigment, even on chestnut based colours, like this palomino.

Sooty palomino.
http://gaitedmorgans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dan-21.jpg (link as it's a big photo).

 

[sasquatch]

Yes, dapples are often sooty at work. It adds black pigment, even on chestnut based colours, like this palomino.

Sooty palomino.
http://gaitedmorgans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dan-21.jpg (link as it's a big photo).

That's very much what his coat is like where it's coming through a golden-brown
The silvery-cream hairs and zebra stripes also would be linked with sooty I assume? I'll have a look and see if there are any other strange and wonderful colours and things in his coat when I bring him in later

out of curiosity, does dapple grey mean a grey who has sooty, or is it completely unrelated?
and is there a reason sooty is more commonly seen in some colours (I've seen it in the majority of palominos I've ever met, and in quite a few darker bays but not as many chestnuts or bright bays) than others?

sorry to take the thread slightly off topic!

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You can get sooty chestnuts. Sooty bright bays are normally not called bright bay, as the sooty turns them into dark bays IYSWIM.

RE - grey and sooty. I have wondered the same. The presence or not of sooty, could certainly explain why some greys go through a dapple stage and others don't.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I have a welsh sect d that is registered as a bay, I have always thought of him ax a bright bay but looking at him closely he does have a black nane and tail and he has black knees and hocks but below that black his feathers are a definite cream colour. He akso has a creamy nose. Would he still be classed as a bay?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

CC - could you post a photo?

 

[Crugeran Celt]

I am useless with computers have tried before unsuccessfully to get a photograph up. If anyone dan explain how I will take a close up of his legs to show the cream feathers.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You can upload from your PC to an album in your forum profile. Or upload to photobucket (or similar) and post the IMG code in the forum reply box.

 

[sasquatch]

You can get sooty chestnuts. Sooty bright bays are normally not called bright bay, as the sooty turns them into dark bays IYSWIM.

RE - grey and sooty. I have wondered the same. The presence or not of sooty, could certainly explain why some greys go through a dapple stage and others don't.

Yes that makes sense!
So the sooty gene isn't more common in certain gene combinations (e.g sooty and cream often come together)

I have always wondered how greys work, especially as there are those who go from dapples to fleabitten, and those who go fleabitten without the dapple stage - I wonder if there have been any studies into it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

So the sooty gene isn't more common in certain gene combinations (e.g sooty and cream often come together)

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[ester]

I think it's just more visible on some backgrounds , if you have cream you are more likely to be able to identify it than on a bay/liver chestnut. I suspect Frank might have sooty too but is the latter . He dapples and has a fair amount of black in his tail among the flaxen.

 

[PolarSkye]

Yes, dapples are often sooty at work. It adds black pigment, even on chestnut based colours, like this palomino.

Sooty palomino.
http://gaitedmorgans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Dan-21.jpg (link as it's a big photo).

Wait - so dapples (in a "coloured" coat like bay, chestnut, buckskin or dun) indicate sooty? The mare I told you about is dappled with her summer coat - not massively, but it's there . . . so can we add sooty to her colouring?

P

 

[ester]

I think there's a maybe on it PS, not definite.

 

[PolarSkye]

I think there's a maybe on it PS, not definite.

OK - so are dapples ever just (as I was taught way back) a signal/symptom of good health?

P

 

[Meowy Catkin]

You can get dapples without sooty.

The kind of dapples that I thought were the 'healthy' ones (I have no idea if they really indicate good health or not, but they certainly seem to show up in glossy coats) are those that occur within the coat colour like on this chestnut - you can see that no black pigment is involved.

Then you also get dapples causes by the Silver gene, which is sometimes called 'Silver dapple' for obvious reasons.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

Faracat, sorry for delay with photos but I really am a numpty! I have managed to get two on my profile. The one when he is ridden shows him in the summer when he is an obvious bay with definite black points, the other was taken last week and shows his creamy nose. I haven't nanaged to get a photo of his feathers yet but as he still has his winter coat they are cream at the moment, also under his belly in the winter is cream.

 

[criso]

The kind of dapples that I thought were the 'healthy' ones (I have no idea if they really indicate good health or not, but they certainly seem to show up in glossy coats) are those that occur within the coat colour like on this chestnut - you can see that no black pigment is involved.

]

My old pony was a bright golden chestnut much lighter than horse here, not a black hair anywhere and she got really strong dapples. I think there is something to the good health thing and mine do seem to get them more when looking well but in conjunction with a predisposition to have dapples.

The bay I posted above showing his summer colour and dapples. Compared to my other bay, his black points are very strong and contrasty.