Colour Question

H

Honeyb

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 December 2005
Messages
156
Location
Redditch Worcs
www.redditchriders.co.uk
As some of you know from my last post,I'm new to this and have just aquired a registered few spot mare and a pure black Fallabela (out of leopard spot parents). Apparantly the mare should be in foal and due late July/early August and will have scan done soon to check.

With this info, Oh and I know the mare has had at least two foals that I can see from pedigree search online, would I get a spotted foal? One of the offspring that I read about was spotted, but couldn't find out what colour the other was.

Sorry if this is a bit of a dumb question, but thank you for your help.
confused.gif
 
Without knowing more about the family histories including the colour of the previous father(s), it's hard to tell, but I'd say there's a very good chance - spotting tends to be quite a dominant trait. I'd rate your chances at 50:50 at worst!
 
I'm no expert on genetics...but believe that fewspot horses are homozygous for the Lp gene (spotting gene)...so will pass on some form of spotting to the offspring.
I do believe that the spotting you end up with is dependent on a large number of other gene interactions...so although you should get a spotty...there's no guarantee as to what coat pattern it'll have.
S
grin.gif
 
Trying desperately to remember my 1990's horse genetics research and I'm pretty sure you're right, but couldn't guarantee it!
Also I do remember the phrase "variable penetrance" attached to spotty genetics, meaning you never know quite what you'll end up with!
 
There are two genes which work together to create spotted coat patterns - Patn (which gives the pattern - eg Blanket, Leopard etc) and Lp (which enables said pattern to be seen - this is also the gene which gives the characteristics - white sclera, stripey feet, mottled skin etc).

A homozygous Lp horse may not always give you a patterned horse, although it will always pass on the Lp gene. You also need a copy of the Patn gene for the Lp gene to work on.

There is a lot of research being carried out on spotties, but that's the current thinking.
 
[ QUOTE ]
There are two genes which work together to create spotted coat patterns - Patn (which gives the pattern - eg Blanket, Leopard etc) and Lp (which enables said pattern to be seen - this is also the gene which gives the characteristics - white sclera, stripey feet, mottled skin etc).

A homozygous Lp horse may not always give you a patterned horse, although it will always pass on the Lp gene. You also need a copy of the Patn gene for the Lp gene to work on.

There is a lot of research being carried out on spotties, but that's the current thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm no geneticist...as you can tell
grin.gif
and you lost me somewhere around the point where a fewspot will always pass on the Lp gene...which you say earlier enables a pattern to be seen. So with the OP's beasts, assuming the dam is homozygous black...what are the possible combinations?
In words of one syllable, please
wink.gif

S
 
If dad is black with no spotty genes, then his contribution towards spottiness of the offspring is nothing.

If mum is a fewspot (homozygous Lp) the baby will be heterozygous Lp, obviously. If mum also has two patn genes, then foal will inherit one of those and will be spotty. If mum only has one patn gene, then you have a 50% chance of proper spots, and a 50% chance of no spots, but still with the characteristics given by the Lp gene.
 
[ QUOTE ]
If dad is black with no spotty genes, then his contribution towards spottiness of the offspring is nothing.
<font color="blue"> I'm still with you here! </font>
If mum is a fewspot (homozygous Lp) the baby will be heterozygous Lp, obviously. <font color="blue"> And I'm ok so far! </font> If mum also has two patn genes <font color="blue"> and are fewspots homozygous for patn genes? </font> , then foal will inherit one of those and will be spotty. If mum only has one patn gene, then you have a 50% chance of proper spots, and a 50% chance of no spots, but still with the characteristics given by the Lp gene.

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="blue"> And I'm lost at this bit - what does the Lp gene do, if not produce spots?</font> <font color="blue"> Sorry, but I'm interested so if you can explain even more simply, I'd be grateful.
S
grin.gif
</font>
 
Suggest you contact Lynn Harrison she has conducted a lot of research into this subject over the last 4 years into the history of the American Appaloosa and coat pattern inheritance. If you can supply her with the patterns and colours of the horse, its parents and grandparents she will be able to give you a breakdown of what you are likely to get. I believe her sister breeds Appaloosas but as you see from the website she breeds dogs, and is very knowledgeable on colour genetics.

The current situation with appaloosas is all theory and the Lp gene has not yet been found! Despite assurances it was months away 4 yrs ago. Lynn’s studies have involved phenotype and make a lot of common sense, I think she is currently in the process of updating her article on inheritance, pending some observations on foals due spring 2008.

http://members.aol.com/Brushbow/src/speciesmenu.htm

Personally I think there is more than one Patn gene at work and that those genes are influenced by the amount of white modifiers a horse possesses.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Suggest you contact Lynn Harrison she has conducted a lot of research into this subject over the last 4 years into the history of the American Appaloosa and coat pattern inheritance. If you can supply her with the patterns and colours of the horse, its parents and grandparents she will be able to give you a breakdown of what you are likely to get. I believe her sister breeds Appaloosas but as you see from the website she breeds dogs, and is very knowledgeable on colour genetics.

The current situation with appaloosas is all theory and the Lp gene has not yet been found! Despite assurances it was months away 4 yrs ago. Lynn’s studies have involved phenotype and make a lot of common sense, I think she is currently in the process of updating her article on inheritance, pending some observations on foals due spring 2008.

http://members.aol.com/Brushbow/src/speciesmenu.htm

Personally I think there is more than one Patn gene at work and that those genes are influenced by the amount of white modifiers a horse possesses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just when I thought I was getting somewhere..you have to spoil it all by using the t word
S
grin.gif
 
Fewspots aren't necessarily homozygous for patn genes - just Lp.

Spots aren't formed by dark spots on white, they are another white hair phenomenon, like the coloured genes. Instead of it being brown spots that are put onto white hair, it really is white hair put onto a brown (or chestnut, black) base coat. Thus, the Lp gene codes for the white hair on top of the base coat - but it is only fully expressed in the presence of the patn gene. The patn gene codes for the type of pattern created - ie which bits of the base coat you can still see - the spots. So one form of the patn gene means you'll get a leopard spot, one means you'll get a blanket spot, one for snowcap etc etc.

Homozygous Lp horses (fewspots/snowcaps) have so much white coming through that you can no longer see the effects of the patn gene. Of course, the pattern you end up with is also affected by other modifiers, such as sabino etc. It also appears that chestnut horses will get more white through.

One analogy someone came up with was that patn put the spots on the horse, but you needed Lp as a "flashlight" to see the pattern.

And yes, it's just a theoretical model!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Fewspots aren't necessarily homozygous for patn genes - just Lp.

Spots aren't formed by dark spots on white, they are another white hair phenomenon, like the coloured genes. Instead of it being brown spots that are put onto white hair, it really is white hair put onto a brown (or chestnut, black) base coat. Thus, the Lp gene codes for the white hair on top of the base coat - but it is only fully expressed in the presence of the patn gene. The patn gene codes for the type of pattern created - ie which bits of the base coat you can still see - the spots. So one form of the patn gene means you'll get a leopard spot, one means you'll get a blanket spot, one for snowcap etc etc.

Homozygous Lp horses (fewspots/snowcaps) have so much white coming through that you can no longer see the effects of the patn gene. Of course, the pattern you end up with is also affected by other modifiers, such as sabino etc. It also appears that chestnut horses will get more white through.

One analogy someone came up with was that patn put the spots on the horse, but you needed Lp as a "flashlight" to see the pattern.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, right, I'm with you on the genes now...but that doesn't leave OP any wiser regarding likely outcomes...unless she could have her stallion tested for the genes?
S
grin.gif
 
And then there are the fewspots that produce individuals that are not coloured at all! People like to keep that one quiet or in the extreme explain it away by saying the fewspot is a grey though it has never produced one, or it must be some other kind of leopard!!! But it does happen. Fewspots have also been observed to pass on just characteristics as well as Characteristics plus just appaloosa roan in some individuals.

True fewspots tend produce their loudest spotted offspring to solid mares. So you could well get a highly coloured offspring from your mating.

To really get to the bottom of the theories it needs some experimental breeding with non sabino black or bay/browns. There are a lot of claims of 100% colour production in Appaloosas but until you breed to a statistically significant number of true solid non sabino's how can you say for sure!

Oh and then there are the anecdotal reports of non characteristic appaloosas passing on colour to a few of their offspring. Problem is this is not really viable to test as most appaloosa registries require an NC is bred back to a horse showing coat patterns.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top