coloured/dialute thoroughbred

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lovecharles

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Hiya,

I was very interested to see your views on the coloured and dialute thoroughbreds being registered as pure-breds and with weatherbys.

As i understood, TB's don't carry the genes for coloured/dialutes (i mean I know nothing about genetics, but books and information i've picked up have tole me that TB's are only solid colours), so somewhere along the line, these 'thoroughbreds' must've been crossed with something - many many generations back, to give them this gene. Therefore they're not actually purebred and in my opinion should not be reg. as pure bred thoroughbred.

This is as i understood, so feel free to correct me if i'm wrong - (which i'm sure i am!!!)

p.s. I just want to let you know that this is not intended to cause an argument or offend anyone, i'm just interested in what you think and want to find out more about this
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I was shocked that they allowed the 'piebald' to be registered as a TB. it probably contained as much wb as a WB X TB.. there for its not a pure TB..

Lou x
 
An example of a coloured thoroughbred (DNA tested and all):
http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de/gflook.html
The 'colour' comes from 'Patchy Lassy' (sire's dam) side. Her parents have in combination given a couple of 'coloured' foals. Therefore not just a one-off ... in case the parentage was in doubt ?!

With respect to dilute thoroughbreds ... records of these have existed for decenia so it's not exactly something new! There are enough historical records that can be used as evidence of the existance of palomino's and buckskins in thoroughbreds going back hundreds of years! Even the names of quite a few early tb's seem to point to their 'exotic' colour. There are many theories that more than one of the famous founding 'arabs' was palomino and buckskin.
 
The buckskin or palomino theory comes for the Yellow Turk one of the comments recorded "Some believed him to be imported. Other reports list his sire as Place's White Turk (imp. 1657). He was described as "yellow" coloured and was likely a palomino, but no pics exist. Some speculate he was bred by James D'Arcy the Elder. " The Sabino gene is seen in the TB & if this is concentrated then you will get colourings as seen in this link http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2008/05/063.shtml and a pedigree
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/db.php?i=10494892&time=1231449026

Facinating after being told all these years there was no such thing!
 
There was a really interesting thread on this a while back:

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3664142/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

I believe myself that they are genuine; even if they aren't, they are pretty well assimilated; they look thoroughbred and some have raced successsfully, I believe. Not many partbreds could do that.

I haven't seen any tobiano thoroughbreds, and if people were finding a way to fake it, I think this colour would be desireable enough to be featured. Also, IMO the dilute colours have the look of being an unrefined mutation rather than something manufactured; some of them are blotchy and few of them are the true deep gold favoured by the palomino people; I suppose that aspect hasn't been selected for, yet.

Against that, there are lots of ads for coloured TBs on the internet stallion sites that really AREN'T thoroughbred when you read the small print; some peculiarity of the advertisment filtering system, I suppose.
 
they are coloured TBs, just not tobianos. The overo/sabino gene is responsible for all those flashy markings, and they get called 'coloured TBs' but not in the same way we refer to coloureds over here normally

I agree that some advertisers like to refer to their 7/8ths stallions as Thoroughbreds, so I can see how that could confuse someone just goggling for a stallion
 
Ahhh ... a subject near and dear to my heart as I have been breeding coloured TB's for years ...
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Whoever mentioned the Arabian influence in the TB breed is correct - it is from that source that it is originally thought the dilute coloured TB's of today descend from ...

BUT ...

There are also those who believe that the first known palomino TB - Milkie:

MILKIE_AD.jpg


was actually the result of a mating between a Quarter Horse stallion that jumped the fence and bred Tootsie T. Now - remembering that way back then, no blood typing existed nor did DNA testing, how they determined that Milkie was in fact by Deer Lodge was based on the owner of the sire stating that his stallion "always threw a distinctive looking foot". he came over, looked at Milkie and declared Milkie HAD that foot, so he must be by Deer Lodge and thus he was registered as such ... 44 years later there is no way to prove or disprove whether he was or wasnt a full TB so it isnt even worth worrying about it any more ...

As far as sabino / spotted TB's go, you must remember that the sabino gene can lie dormant and skip generations so you may well breed a plain bay to a plain chestnut and out pops this wildly coloured foal leaving you scratching your head in disbelief!

You had one in the UK a few years back - plain bay sire and plain bay dam and out pops this foal (and the mare in the background is NOT the dam of this foal)

UK_filly-Jul-04.jpg


As well as the sabino gene, you also have the brindle gene in the very famous and now deceased TB stallion "Catch A Bird":

Catch-A-Bird.jpg


Who never did replicate his colouring on any foal ...

Here's an example of extreme birdcatcher spots on the mare "Pelouses Queen":

pelousesqueen.jpg


and my favorite example of birdcatcher spots gone wild on Willspynow:

[image]http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/WillSpyNow.sized[/image]

Ive put together a section on my website entitled "Cool and Unsual Thoroughbreds:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Cool_and_Unusual_Thoroughbreds.html

If you have a few minutes, browse through there - there are some truly beautiful and unique examples of sabino & dilute colouring in TB's around the globe ...
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I have to correct, it was not the Arabs that brought the dilution gene as Arabs never had the dilution, they had and still have the flaxen gene which often mimics the Palomino coloring. They are responsible for the Sabino gene and possibly the frame and splash too as that still exists heavily in the Arabian breed.

The dilution gene was brought into the TBs by the influence of Achal-Tekke (Turk) and Barb horses as they carry and always carried before since ages the dilution gene.
 
Where ever it comes from the only observation I have is that the photo's are either not doing them justice or a some of them leave a lot to be desired as far as quality/conformation goes. No different to the solids, but just wondering how many have been bred from just because of this varation, that wouldn't have been if they had been solid. I would love to see one grade say with the British WB Studbook.
 


you had one in the UK a few years back - plain bay sire and plain bay dam and out pops this foal (and the mare in the background is NOT the dam of this foal)

UK_filly-Jul-04.jpg


You arnt quite correct on this one.
The stallion was King o the mana who is a true breeding bay but the mare Flaming Katie was actually plain chestnut.
The reason i know this to be true is that we stood the stallion at the time and had the mare who belongs to people we know in to cover.
The mare had two previous chestnut foals with white blazes and socks to our old shergar stallion Tout Ensemble but also went on to have a plain foal when put back to King.
Dont know about any later one s as the mares was later sold.
 
Not TB's but WB breeding - earlier this year Brendon's had a foal bron to an outside client's mare by Unbelievable Darco, who is a black stallion for those who do not know him. He generally to my knowledge tends to throw blacks/Dark bays and a few chestnuts. This mare was a bay mare. The foal that popped out was this:
FredsAppaloosafoal.jpg


I believe it turned out that the mare had some appaloosa breeding further back inher pedigree and whilst it had never appeared in her foal's before this...it was obviously still there. She had previously had a foal to thsi same stallion as well, which was a sold bay foal I believe.
 
@magic 104

my two TB stallions Glitter of Gold (Palomino) and The Alchemist (Cremello) have both gotten approval in Germany and can breed WB mares.

The next to go for approval is Ellusive Look, the frame overo TB.

A lot of WB breeders in Germany are breeding their mares to the TB stallions as they are desired for stamina and refinement. As long as they get approved by a reputable Association, every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books.
 
@flying colours
I think that is really interesting to hear as in the UK we are always being told that TBs stallions are not of interest to WB breeders unless it is a really exceptional one. So it is very refreshing to hear they are used in Germany for WB breeding & even more interesting that they are ones of such unusual colour.

What organisation did you present your guys to to be Approved with? Do they have to do a performance test?

Is the frame overo the colour that produces the lethal white foal 25% of the time when bred together? Is it something to be worried about if there are more frame overos coming to Europe?
 
I have said this before so I'll summarise!

I find it impossible to believe that a dominant gene can lye hidden for 300 odd years only to reappear in the 1960’s. Ok so with a black coat it is hard to see the gene at work but to say that a dominant gene survived for all these years in between the last reported racing buckskin or palomino, through generations of racing thoroughbreds all reported upon extensively of all base colours and not one palomino or yellow buckskin reported at the high performance levels. (I quote racing thoroughbreds because by performance they are the purist of their breed, reintroduction of blood from Arabs failed in the 1800’s as the TB had evolved beyond their roots and the crosses could not compete and because any horse not performing pre the 1940’s and even 1950’s didn’t find a new home producing recreational or sport horses, it pulled a cart or was killed so there is no room to hide in lesser performing pedigrees here so this is an excellent period to show that the gene had died out). Like I have said before no dilute has been produced in the last 200 years from the top 14 thoroughbred female families.

Couple this with the very few modern lines that have spawned dilute TB’s and the evidence supports the premise that the dilute gene died out in the thoroughbred and was reintroduced in modern times.

However now the gene has been reintroduced and has been recognised and the most recent lineage is verified by DNA testing, so yes these horses are Thoroughbred since they are endorsed by the international stud book. But I seriously doubt that we will see a palomino Derby winner any time soon!


Certainly in the UK sabino in the thoroughbred for hundreds of years was very muted, a lot of old English families showed very few white markings at all, but the odd sabino all white did pop out. However in recent times more sabino markings are seen in the breed and now you are seeing “inbetweenies” belly patches, high white socks, roany patches etc. Certainly sabino can and does crop out as white modifiers concentrate in a breeding population and it does not take much for the unpredictable sabino to mutate to splash white and even overo. That is why Sabino is suspected to have been the precursor mutation to white markings. I am dubious re the appearance of overo TB;’s, but again they are now legitimated. Tobiano however may be a much older and more complicated mutation which is why it will not reappear in a TB without “help”.

Funnily enough the arguement regading purity does not stand up in the UK!!! Weatherbys allow the introduction of partbreds to the GSB after the 8th generation of being bred back to stud book TB’s, subject also to performance I believe, so it would not be impossible to introduce Tobiano or any other colour via this route if you had no real life! Once on the UK Studbook then this animal would receive international recognition. Interestingly the USA will only register horses descended to Stud Book Thoroughbreds!!

Catch A Bird was not a brindle, the expression was similar to look at as brindle but brindles have black markings, here you have a perfect example of a gene mutation at work, this was believed to be a stress related mutation. He never reproduced his own colouring which is a clue but he passed on True Roan, a colour definitely not in TB’s! Some of his offspring were True Roans and went on to produce True Roan’. Personally I would have loved to have seen if his mutation like true roan was unviable in homozygous form, so mimicking how roan came about or a completely new mutation.
 
Lethal white is most associated with the Frame Overo pattern but coat color pattern is not always a good indicator as it can be masked by the prescence of other white spotting pattern genes.

Breeding a horse carrying the Lethal White gene is only problematic when breeding to another horse with it, but introduce the gene to a breed and start inbreeding and you could have the problem there and ready to take off as the frame pattern may be very minimally expressed so DNA testing may become critical.
 
KarynK - yeah - Catch A Bird's filly, even though a TB, was the most "roan" looking "non roan" I have ever seen in my life!!!
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Here is a picture of her - the JC would not allow her to be described as "roan" on her papers as they said roan doesnt exist in the TB breed at all!

Slip-Catch.jpg


But I dont know what else you'd call her ...
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So - if Weatherby's will allow the introduction of "Non TB's" into their stud book in modern times (as opposed to the North American JC who probably got bamboozled many many years ago as they didnt have the means to determine IF some horses were truly who people said they were!) is Weatherby's a legit "Thoroughbred" Stud Book???

I really have mixed feelings on this one. While it would be neat to have the tobiano gene introduced into the breed, and several generations later when that foal is 49/50ths TB
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it truly IS closer to a TB than anything else but also having seen how gene's can lay dormant and skip many many generations will one of those "TB" foals pop out many years down the road that looks anything but a TB ...

And talking about tobiano's, this guy - King Of Trumps - was registered as a TB:

KingofTrumps.jpg


I wonder if there are ANY descendants at all out there distantly related to him???
 
TC Do have you anymore info on The King of Trumps eg his pedigree and when he was born ? I am sure Weatherbys could answer the question about any descendants. Their records are fantastic and I always find them very helpful.


There was a big study into DNA & matching genetic markers back to link to family trees of TBs so I guess if a dilute/colour TB breeder wanted to prove once & for all that their horses did trace back to the original family lines on the colour lines , maybe one day they could do that. Wherever they came from, they are in the studbook now & are TBs so does it really matter.
There is a report on it online but I only manged to read half of it & all the links before losing the will to live
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& giving up
http://www.tbheritage.com/GeneticMarkers/mtdnaintbdamlines.html


Easier to read
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7941-95-of-thoroughbreds-linked-to-one-superstud.html

Thanks KK for the info
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Sorry True Colours another question
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With Milkie was the colour supposed to come from his sire Deer Lodge? Did Deer Lodge sire any other dilutes, did he cover many mares? Is it feasible he would produce just one dilute? What other TB lines in USA produce dilutes? Sorry for all the questions, all the recent dilute TB postings have made me curious
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I am looking forward to going up the road & seeing them when they arrive in the UK
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[ QUOTE ]
KarynK - yeah - Catch A Bird's filly, even though a TB, was the most "roan" looking "non roan" I have ever seen in my life!!!

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Yet they insist on putting down Grey Roan when they know the thing is going to go white!!!!!

The registration and racing of “partbreds” probably stems from the popularity of National Hunt Racing in the UK, a stamina based tough sport with need for a very different type of horse (there are of course exceptions). So introductions of more bone etc came from mares, largely TB but with unknown pedigrees, and you still see much of this in National Hunt Racing but more so in Point to Pointing. In fact the French horse that won the Cheltenham Gold Cup (Our biggest NH grade 1 chase) was a ¾ bred as I remember, but I think the ¼ was Selle Francais. The reality is though that at it’s highest level on the flat the TB is supreme and although parentage in years gone by might not be accurate it will have been TB, it is effectively a closed shop being a purely performance driven industry.

However a racehorse may be part bred but that horse is not allowed into the General Stud book until it has been bred to TB’s for eight generations and has the performance to back it up so realistically very few get past this hurdle. Any partbreds are on the Non Thoroughbred register which has similar rules for registration.

Re King Of Trumps my money is firmly on Overo or a sabino verging on overo depending on what percentage offspring were like him! The edges are too irregular for tobiano on it’s own. Also Tobiano is unlikely to crop out from nowhere but having said that all colour markings are available in a very minimal form that can look just like ordinary white markings.

I am sorry flyingcolors, much as I would like to agree there are hundreds of detailed records painting and photographs of racehorses and of course pictures, there was detailed research done by Frederico Tesio and others into coat colour and performance, who actually saw most of those individuals and not one palomino or buckskin, these were horsemen of the highest calibre and would know the difference, no dilute racehorse has been bred in living memory and beyond, that sort of thing judging by this post alone is newsworthy in the UK. Flaxen is very rare in UK families and so too is light chestnut and there is no mistaking a buckskin. We are talking a dominant gene with a VERY striking and unmistakable efffect when it meets the right base colour. The only way to really settle the arguement is mitocondrial DNA but it is still quite expensive to test, so pehaps a project for a budding scientist.
 
KarynK - my money is firmly on a tovero (a cross between tobiano and overo genes) for the King of Trumps horse ... as you generally do not see overo crossing over the back like that but you do with tobiano's ...

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Flaxen is very rare in UK families and so too is light chestnut and there is no mistaking a buckskin.

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Okay - I just HAVE to disagree with you here ...

This is the example I use many many times when the discussion comes round to "buckskin's are very obvious"

IMO - no - they are not in 100% of the cases ...
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Take a look at this example - a lovely DNA proven buckskin Morgan stallion:

buckskin-BlacksaddleStarbuck.jpg


Would you ever in a million years see this horse standing there and say "Oh! Look at the beautiful buckskin stallion?!"

I know that I wouldnt ...
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Take the 2008 Nightlight filly. She is DNA tested to be smoky black, by my cremello TB stallion out of a bay TB mare:

Daisy-Jul08-5.JPG


At one month of age she absolutely DID look like a buckskin, but as she shed out (and we got the DNA results back determining that she was indeed a smoky black instead) there is NO way anyone would look at her now and say "Look at the lovely dilute filly!"

Daisy-Sep08-1.jpg


and:

Daisy-Sep08.jpg


Now she looks like a beautiful golden bay.

So is it not entirely possible that you did get these dark buckskin's and smoky blacks through the ages that were never known to be dilutes and people didnt have a clue that they WERE dilutes, because - visually - they didnt look like what people's perception of a dilute SHOULD look like?

Dilute cant hide through generations like sabino can but by not visually being obvious is it not entirely possble they kind of snuck in under the radar for many years???

Someone a few posts back asked about Milkie. It was determined that Tootsie T - his dam - must have been a smoky black or a dark buckskin in order for him to come out a palomino. Again - no way to prove or disprove that now. She never threw any other dilutes and I guess that explanation was more palatable and universally acceptable than "Billy Bob's Quarter horse stallion musta snuck in under the fence and got her in the family way!"
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You can truly hypothesize and speculate all you want. The dilutes and sabino's are here to stay, they have supposedly come from registered TB stock "way back when" and all we can do now is "breed the best to the best" and continue to amaze people with these beautiful papered TB's that also happen to express the sabino and/or dilute genes ...

A few "first's" are hopefully on the way as well ...

Guaranteed Gold (cremello) crossed with Pearlescent (perlino) will in 100% of the cases produce double dilute foals. We already have several cremello's in existence in the world and 3 perlino TB mares of which Pearl is one of them. There are NO perlino TB colts in existence yet and no smoky creams (smoky cream is the double dilute of the black gene. Smoky black is the single dilute of the black gene)

Smoky creams are my absolute favorite and I am really hoping this combination produces the first one in the world!

here is a picture of a smoky cream - the metallic colour is much more intense and pronounced than the other double dilutes are:

smokycream.jpg


and:

smokycream1.jpg
 
@magic 104

my two TB stallions Glitter of Gold (Palomino) and The Alchemist (Cremello) have both gotten approval in Germany and can breed WB mares.

The next to go for approval is Ellusive Look, the frame overo TB.

A lot of WB breeders in Germany are breeding their mares to the TB stallions as they are desired for stamina and refinement. As long as they get approved by a reputable Association, every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books.

Sorry I was not very clear, my fault. This extract comes from the BWBS
All Stallions must be registered with the BWBS/WBS-UK or BSHR and have a WR number before entry to the Stallion Grading can be accepted.

No Albino’s or Cremello’s are eligible for entry.

I would agree with a comment that not all foals would have been reg correctly as far a colour goes. I have noticed a number of horses reg as Chestnut, Bay etc only to clearly be Grey!
 
[ QUOTE ]
The only way to really settle the arguement is mitocondrial DNA but it is still quite expensive to test, so pehaps a project for a budding scientist.

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But in Milkie's case, supposing a QH sire WAS the true source of the dilution factor, mitochondrial DNA would surely just overstamp his claim to being TB- since he got his mtDNA, not from his dad but from his indisputedly thoroughbred mum?

When DID bloodtyping become a requirement for TBs, by the bye?
 
[ QUOTE ]
TC Do have you anymore info on The King of Trumps eg his pedigree and when he was born ? I am sure Weatherbys could answer the question about any descendants. Their records are fantastic and I always find them very helpful.

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His pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/king+of+trumps

The picture is in fact an oil painting made in 1790 that hangs in the Sudley Art Gallery in Liverpool. It features 'King of Trumps' a TB racehorse owned by King George III.

In this case I think the colour comes from his sire: Velocipede who was described as 'blaze-faced'; another son of his 'Joe Lovell' also had the distinctive face. Another son, 'Hornsea' has on the picture in this link (http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Velocipede.html#Hornsea) what would appear to be a flaxen tail. Pic thereunder is of the blaze-faced 'Joe Lovell'
.... definitely 'colour' in the family.
 
[ QUOTE ]
@magic 104

my two TB stallions Glitter of Gold (Palomino) and The Alchemist (Cremello) have both gotten approval in Germany and can breed WB mares.

The next to go for approval is Ellusive Look, the frame overo TB.

A lot of WB breeders in Germany are breeding their mares to the TB stallions as they are desired for stamina and refinement. As long as they get approved by a reputable Association, every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was under the impression from another thread on this forum that the hannovarian studbook would NOT accept palomino/buckskin/cremello into the main studbook. So for example if I used the Alchemist on a chestnut hanoverian mare I would get the resulting palomino foal registered and branded as pure hanoverian in the main studbook and if a colt could go forward for stallion approval with the hanoverian verband. Is that correct? Or am I being stupid and when I was told the colour was not accepted - would the foal be put in the main studbook as 'light chestnut' instead of palomino to get round that rule (if indeed it is a rule). Sorry to be dense but I would love a palomino foal one day but only if it would get full hanoverian papers and brand and be eligable for grading.

Another stupid question but I thought most German breed socs had a rule that any stallions used on their approved, graded mares had also to be approved by them, and not by some other association. I used to have traks and they seemed very strict about this. Is it only TB's, arabs and anglos approved that are automatically approved or do they all have to go forward for a second grading and approval as the other warmblood stallions approved by other breed socs do?

Thanks!
 
Thanks ColourFan for that info on King of Trumps! He's a fascinating example for sure ...
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[ QUOTE ]
When DID bloodtyping become a requirement for TBs, by the bye?


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh Lordy ... I believe it was in the '70's or '80's but not exactly sure when. DNA came into being in the '90's and then superceded all previously bloodtyped stock ...
 
Although I'm not fully up to speed on all of the German societies I do know European Law as determined by the European Commission.

And that states that any stallion approved by a EU-recognized Studbook must be accepted by any other EU-recognized Studbook without the necessity that the stallion has to repeat an approval with the second Studbook. (There was an international court case on such a case and the ?Danish? Studbook lost the case vs the ?German? stallion owner.)
The offspring of such a stallion (and here I am speaking of warmblood stallions) must also be accepted in their registers.
Now comes the loophole ... the same EU-Law gives the Studbooks the right to place the offspring in a register (book I, II or ??) as they see fit, or as determined by their rules&regulations.

Addition: With respect to traks you are correct. They do not accept 'outside' stallions and I think the main reason for this is because it is what is called a 'closed' Studbook ... a breed Studbook. Most of the wb Studbooks are not breed Studbooks. The Trakhner Studbook has been known to accept approved Thoroughbred stallions into their Registers.
 
Thanks colourfan. That has clarified things quite a lot for me though still unsure of the precise answer!
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I know I asked about hann as I have a hann mare, but I suspect if i had a chestnut trak mare, unless the cremello TB stallion was approved by the trakehner vernand (or sister association) the foal would get part bred papers and NOT go into the main stud book. Which for me is useless. However, I think if the mare was exceptional and got premium points at her own grading she could get into the main mare book. This is a big IF though and means politics could intervene and the mare is never graded into the main stud book and neither are her foals. Also if the foal was a 'he' I doubt it could go from part bred status to be an approved stallion.

I don't know if hann have the equivilent of part bred papers but I suspect they possibly do if its the only way to get round accepting stallions from other studbooks they don't like. However the poster did say main studbook so I would be interested if this IS the case or if there is like the traks, discretion on the part of the graders. The poster that told me that the hann studbook won't accept dilutes may be wrong and the poster I quoted above right. If I DID seriously want to breed a foal using a double dilute TB I would really have to contact the hann registrar to confirm that the foal would get full main studbook papers
 
Interesting pictures there of the buckskin stallion and smoky black filly True Colours - I certainly ouldn't have spotted a dilute gene in either from those pics! They do support a theory that the dilute gene has been present, but unnoticed in the TB world for generations....
 
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