coloured/dialute thoroughbred

What I DO know:
- the Hann.Studbook does not accept dilutes (or coloured for that matter)
- the cream dilute does not exist in the Trak.breed ... all dilutes acclaiming to be Trak's are in fact halfbreeds.

I think 'Flyingcolours' would best be able to answer your questions as her stallions have completed their German State approval 70-day tests. The 70-day tests are held at the different 'State' studfarms ... ALL the recognized Studbooks send their stallions to these studfarms which means that during one test there might be stallions present representing anything upto 6 different recognized Studbooks. Because all the stallions do the same test, regardless of Studbook, and because of this the stallions are usually accepted by the other Studbooks.
 
Thanks colourfan - so the poster in the previous thread WAS right and it is NOT true that 'every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books'. Since I would have thought the hanoverian studbook is one of the most popular then it is very misleading indeed to say 'every studbook' when the most popular of all the German studbooks won't take dilutes. Just goes to show how carefully you must vet info on the internet! I am sure flyingcolours was genuinely misinformed, though if flyingcolours can't get it right then who possibly can????
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Perhaps there is a rule change coming up or something? It would be great if there was as it seems a completly illogical rule.

I suppose it may be possible to grade a hann mare into a studbook that does take dilutes, then the resulting foal would get its papers. Seems a lot of work. Maybe best to buy a nice palomino foal and stuck to breeding solid hanns!!! I do crave a palomino foal though. Must be spring and I'm getting broody
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Ah! I LOVE it when I can add something further to this discussion ...
grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
- the cream dilute does not exist in the Trak.breed ... all dilutes acclaiming to be Trak's are in fact halfbreeds.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are sort of / somewhat correct ... today it doesnt. "Tomorrrow" it will as soon as this filly turns 3 and is inspected and approved

The first palomino Anglo Trakehner filly is 2 this year and owned by Tannenwald Trakehner in Michigan, USA. She can be seen at:

http://atrakehner.com/italiadorata.html

I then asked Ingrid what avenues both her palomino Anglo Trakehner colt and her palomino Anglo Trakehner filly can follow within the ATA and was given this very detailed explanation ... (and I have NO idea if the ATA (American Trakehner Association) is different from the Euopean one, or if they both follow the same rules and have the same mandate ...)

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I talked to the ATA guy and also reviewed our regulations.

We had a pilot program for several years under which purebred TB and Arab stallions could be inspected and approved for breeding to purebred mares. That program never extended eligibility to TB-Trakehner or Arab-Trakehner crosses; only purebred stallions, such as Guaranteed Gold, were eligible.

A few years ago we voted to discontinue the pilot program, essentially making the program "permanent." Here is a copy of the explanation for that program under which TB and Arab stallions can be inspected and approved. It may be somewhat outdated; for example, now the minimum score for a stallion is 60 instead of 58 (out of a possible 10 in each of 8 scoring categories). But it is the general tune.

http://www.americantrakehner.com/faqs/FAQsPilotProgramStallions.htm

Historically, we have had very few applicants for this. The criteria are pretty tough (particularly performance record) and the market for ATA mares is pretty tight, so I think that discourages most owners of TB and Arab stallions. But the get of approved stallions (TB stallions Musing, Cloned Steel, Ambassador in Love ... and Arab stallions Aul Magic, Al Marah Quebec, Taez, and maybe another) out of unrestricted ATA Studbook (OSB) mares are eligible for registration in the Official Registry Book, and then for entry into the Official Stud Book upon inspection.

But now and as ever,

A colt

- by a Jockey Club stallion that has not been presented and approved by the ATA, and

- out of an ATA mare (regardless of the book of her registry--registration book or stud book)

is not eligible under the pilot program or our regulations and is not eligible for the Official Stud Book.

Such a colt would be registerable only under the ATA Appendix Book Section (B) (if the dam is an ATA Stud Book mare--OSB) or Section (D) (if the dam is an ATA registry book mare--ORB). In neither case is a colt eligible for transfer to the Official Stud Book.

This is precisely the situation that Tango is in--his sire (Guaranteed Gold) is unapproved, though his dam is OSB, so he is not eligible for approval on his own right (under the pilot program) and is not eligible to move up from his current registration status, in the Official Appendix Book (B)

The outcome is different for fillies. A filly by a Jockey Club stallion out of an ATA OSB mare is registrable in the Official Appendix Book (B), and from there, fillies (but not colts) can move into the Preliminary Stud Book upon inspection. So that will be Dory's path.

Hope that helps. Clear as mud, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

So ... in speaking with Ingrid further on this, as a 3 year old mare in 2010, Dora can be presented for inspection and if approved, she would then get full registration status within the ATA and then when SHE is bred to registered and approved ATA stallions those resultant foals would then get full ATA registration at birth.

She is a truly stunning filly and has really captured the best of both the TB and Trakehner breeds ...

GG-Dora-Jul06.jpg



So - it is going to be really neat to be part of the first registered dilute Trakehner out there in the world as far as we know!
smile.gif
 
She is STUNNING!!!! I would love to buy (or breed) a palomino filly like her. I am drooling!

If this filly grades premium as opposed to just passing (and does her performance test) will she go stright into the OSB instead of the preliminary register? Doesn't really matter since her foals will go directly into the OSB anyway and that's all thet matters but I was just interested to find out as she is a real cracker.

Its fab that she just has to pass - and not be required to pass with premium marks - as it means her foals pure bred status can't be blocked just for politics or prejudice (well unless they make stupid rules like the hanoverians). I have seen I think a blue roan and a palomino trakeher filly advertised for sale in Germany as trakehners. However, I think they were probably in the same position as this filly in that they required to be graded.
 
The gorgeous palomino filly above made me broody so have been happily looking for palomino warmbloods and pretending I have won the lottery. There are a few palomino traks around - one even in USA who is 16 now - but none reg trak and none as gorgeous as truecolours filly! The 16 year old palomino trak was used as a brood mare but registered Belgian Warmblood instead of trak - seems a strange choice of reg since her sire was ATA approved and her dam a TB though maybe the rules were different when she was younger. http://www.superiorhorse.net/iris.html
Truecolors filly is awesome and I haven't seen any other palomino warmbloods that move as well as she does - she is truly stunning.

This site was interesting too for many reasons
http://www.palominowarmblood.com

coloredfan said hann doesn't acccept coloured which is exactly what I thought. On this site there is a palomino colt foal there that has main foalbook papers swedish warmblood but it says he may be eligable for hann stallion approval - which sounds VERY unlikely!!! Also, there is a bay sabino filly who doesn't look like a coloured horse as such, though this filly's mother looks very coloured and is registered and graded holsteiner which I wasn't sure if they allowed coloured/dilutes - looks like they do - hurah! Seems to be lots of coloured Oldenburg which perhaps is the pioneering german breed soc as regards dilutes and coloured horses. Am rambling on as its late but I hope things change and I can breed my own foal in time - though it will not be paolmino as |I currently own a bay and a black. Would love a buckskin too though!
 
Sorry have not been here for a while as we have to deal with hand watering 60 horses every day due to minus 20 degrees every day.

The only German Associations that do not accept dilutes now any more are Holstein and Hannover. They did at a certain time as there are Holsteiner Palominos - in fact the dam of my mare Maigold IS a Holsteiner main book mare in Palomino color and there were Hanoverian Palomino WBs too but now they do no longer accept the dilute color. It may be totally different for a TB as both Associations accept the TBs into their books. So we will see.

As far as the ATA goes, they do not have the same rules as the German Trakehner Verband, they are much easier to deal with. There is also a Pinto mare approved in the ATA that would never have been entered into the main book in Germany. The Trakehner Verband does only accept horses into their main books that are by a recognized Association and have done their performance test. Once The Alchemist has done his performance test this year and has gained the necessary points demanded, his foals can get Trakehner branded f.e. I do have a Palomino filly by The Alchemist out of a Trakehner main book mare and that will be presented for the Trakehner main book in 2010. Here she is:

3 days old


2 months old
 
Lots of beautiul horses posted
smile.gif


CF - thanks for the info but small query the pedigree for KOT shows him being born 1849 so if that picture was done in the 1790 it can't be him
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Hollycat there are quite a few dilute Swedish warmbloods. I *think* this stallion is a buckskin. He is an Elite Swedish stallion and was highly ranked in their studbook. I am not sure if he is dilute as nobody seems to mention him in dilute breeding but I have seen it written he is buckskin and have seen palomino foals sired by him. He is a good example of the gene hiding for sure if he is, although I still don' believe it hid all the years in USA
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tongue.gif


http://www.gransbostuteri.com/hingst_bernstein.htm

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10222090


Are there not dilute Trakehner lines in Russia ? I did read it on the Internet but I know not to believe all I read
smile.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
The gorgeous palomino filly above made me broody so have been happily looking for palomino warmbloods and pretending I have won the lottery. There are a few palomino traks around - one even in USA who is 16 now - but none reg trak and none as gorgeous as truecolours filly!

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh - I do that ALL the time as well ...
grin.gif
... KNOWING I have won the lottery this week, so I'd better get looking quick to see who I can fill my stalls with!

Ingrid adored this filly from the moment she was born. She fielded so many enquiries from people wanting to buy her and she will never be for sale


[ QUOTE ]
The 16 year old palomino trak was used as a brood mare but registered Belgian Warmblood instead of trak - seems a strange choice of reg since her sire was ATA approved and her dam a TB though maybe the rules were different when she was younger. http://www.superiorhorse.net/iris.html
Truecolors filly is awesome and I haven't seen any other palomino warmbloods that move as well as she does - she is truly stunning.


[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that that mare is NOT registered Trakehner. Not with full papers ...

This is the explanation I was given on her:

[ QUOTE ]
The Palomino Anglo-Trakehner mare in Canada is not approved for breeding by the ATA. She is registered but did not pass her breeding inspection last year (for entry into the Preliminary Stud Book). If she HAD passed, her offspring by unrestricted ATA approved stallions would be purebred and eligible to move into the stud book of the Association.


[/ QUOTE ]

So ... there you go ... I guess she is registered but not approved for breeding, so her use within the ATA is limited to none unless you want to breed her outside of her breed registry
 
And here some more proof of how the dilution can hide in black bay and bay:

Majolika GF, a dark buckskin mare
Black Bay Trakehner mother (Amadine) and Cremello sire (Mascarpone GF):


Shew O'Gold GF, a dark buckskin Sabino filly
Bay Maximum Sabino TB mother (Shew) and Cremello TB sire (Guaranteed Gold):
 
@ Hollycat:

If you mean that part of a previous post of mine:
__________

A lot of WB breeders in Germany are breeding their mares to the TB stallions as they are desired for stamina and refinement. As long as they get approved by a reputable Association, every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books.
__________

it is absolutely NOT misleading as it is a general post about Germany using TB stallions in their WB breeding and Holstein and Hannover are doing this too.
 
Oh - how cool is that!!!
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I have my stallion listed with the AQHA for breeding to Quarter Horse mares and each month in the AQHA magazine that is sent out to members, is a section where people send in pictures of weird looking facial markings. This month they had a mitten, a crescent moon, a goose and a rooster

This is my all time favorite facial marking, on a TB filly born probably 4 or 5 years ago. I never knew who owned her or what her name was, but wouldnt this be cool if she threw babies with this marking?!
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Bullseye_filly.jpg
 
Well I never, that has got to be the best. Now all we need to do is work out how to fix these markings and we could have our own brand marks!! The whole thing about colour and markings is interesting. I have seen a few horses with a perfect heart shaped white mark btwn their eyes I like that one, any others?
 
I think that markings like that on greys are meant to be a bloody-shoulder mark, but on the face. I've seen piccies of a few horses like him, and they really caught my eye, so I had to learn more. I guess they are a concentration of "flea-bites", though Acorado II doesn't look like he's gone flea-bitten yet! For some reason, they look very bold and defined on the face, so striking... I've always liked the traditional roan-looking bloody shoulder markings--didn't know they could happen ON the face too.
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Here's a similarly marked mare, rather aptly named "Warface": http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_directory_w/who.html
 
On the topic of the ones with the cool stars, etc. I know someone who recently bought a cracking little jet Black Welsh Sect. C - all he has on him is a large perfect diamond in the centre of his forehead - which in turn has a letter S running through it in black!!!! He is nicknamed very fittingly...Superman!!!!
 
AJBliss - that Warface mare is SO unusual, isnt she?!
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Here is another TB mare that is quite unique as well:

BBird.jpg


her name is Brilliant Bird

Candy Spots is one whose birdcatcher spots have gone a little wild:

CandySpots.jpg


Not I is a TB mare who exhibits - I guess - a whack of bircatcher spots all smooshed together to form solid white areas:

Not_I.jpg


Showmethemoolah is a really extreme example of rabicano expression in a TB, turning him virtually roan:

Showmethemoolah.jpg


This one is interesting. This is "Strawberry" a TB filly by the deceased brindle TB stallion - Catch A Bird. I call this filly a true roan but the JC would not allow that terminolgy to be used with her so they have called her a "grey/roan" even though the first rule of colour genetics is in order to HAVE a grey foal, one of the parents must be grey and neither of hers were ...

Strawberry.jpg
 
[ QUOTE ]
@ Hollycat:

If you mean that part of a previous post of mine:
__________

A lot of WB breeders in Germany are breeding their mares to the TB stallions as they are desired for stamina and refinement. As long as they get approved by a reputable Association, every WB Association in Germany is accepting the offspring into their main books.
__________

it is absolutely NOT misleading as it is a general post about Germany using TB stallions in their WB breeding and Holstein and Hannover are doing this too.

[/ QUOTE ]


Flyingcolours this IS misleading. Very misleading. This is a thread about dilutes. If I take a chestnut hanoverian mare
mare and breed her to a cremello TB stallion (who is approved) the resulting palomino foal WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED into the hannoverian studbook. The same foal WOULD be accepted trakehner though.

When you say ' every WB association accepts offspring' this isn't the case - it is untrue. On a thread about general breeding with no mention of dilutes it would be untrue but not particularly relevant, but on a thread about dilutes it is very relevant and giving people the misleading impression that their hann x TB palomino foal will get full hannoverian papers is just wrong - particularly as you yourself know it is untrue and are not confused as I have been. he reason I have been confused in the first place is due to such statements!

It would be fair to say 'most associations' but not every. If it was true I would be martching my hann mare to a cremello TB stallion - but as the foal will not get papers I won't be!

Far too many gorgeous horses posted here today. I will need a big win on that lottery!
 
[ QUOTE ]
If I take a chestnut hanoverian mare and breed her to a cremello TB stallion (who is approved) the resulting palomino foal WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED into the hannoverian studbook. The same foal WOULD be accepted trakehner though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would the Trak Verband accept a foal out of a Hannoverian mare by a cremello TB stallion? There is no Trakehner in this pedigree and the Trak Verband is very careful about its bloodlines. If the Hann mare was graded Oldenburg then the Oldenburg Verband might issue their equivalent of KWPN Reg B papers (ie part-bred not purebred) but that is a different issue. The same thing would apply if the mare was ZfDp graded.

[ QUOTE ]
When you say ' every WB association accepts offspring' this isn't the case - it is untrue. On a thread about general breeding with no mention of dilutes it would be untrue but not particularly relevant, but on a thread about dilutes it is very relevant and giving people the misleading impression that their hann x TB palomino foal will get full hannoverian papers is just wrong - particularly as you yourself know it is untrue and are not confused as I have been. he reason I have been confused in the first place is due to such statements!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately Flying colours seems to have a bit of a mental block about the EU law that *appears to state* that every graded stallion must be accepted by every studbook <sigh>. In practice, if a mare is graded into a studbook then that studbook has to issue pedigree/papers on her foals if requested by the mare owner regardless of whether the stallion is graded or not which is slightly different. However, it does not require that these papers are full (ie not part-bred) papers and if the stud book has been recognsied as a purebred breed -- the only warmbloods to have attained this status so far are the Hannoverian, the Holstein and the Trakehner -- then the studbook concerned is actually given a dispensation by the EU as far as this part of the legislation is concerned and can refuse to issue papers on such foals.

A further confusion is the belief that every graded stallion is automatically granted graded status by every other studbook by this law. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Graded stallions are automatically entitled to List B status throughout Europe but whether a studbook accepts all stallions on List B as graded with them (Ie automatically adds them to its own LIst A, the list of Approved / Graded/ Licenced stallions on whose progeny it will issue papers) or not is entirely up to them. For example, the KWPN does accept some stallions graded with other studbooks that have never been presented at a KWPN grading but certainly not all and the same applies to the Scandinavian warmblood breeds. Within Germany, approval by another studbook is often based on a combination of bloodlines and the score gained in the peformance test or a subsequent good competition record so again what you said about the inaccuracy of implying that such stallions and their progeny being acceptable everywhere is completely true.

[ QUOTE ]
It would be fair to say 'most associations' but not every. If it was true I would be martching my hann mare to a cremello TB stallion - but as the foal will not get papers I won't be!

[/ QUOTE ]

And of course bearing in mind that most wb studbooks in mainland Europe are aware that cremello colouring / dilutes in TBs probably came 'over the wall' from undetected QH matings -- and the QH is definitely not an acceptable breed in mainstream wb (as distinct from more general sport horse) breeding programmes -- then they are pretty nervous about accepting them anyway.
 
My post about the TBs used in WB breeding in GERMANY is totally correct and nowhere misleading. And when I am talking about approved stallions I mean this in the way a stallion has to pass the approval in Germany and to pass the stallion performance test to be LIFETIME approved and such TB stallions are allowed to breed in every stud book in Germany. There is no mental block, its fact!!

Every breeder that wants to use a full approved WB or TB stallion within a stud book that does not have this stallion listed, but the stallion passed approval and performance test according to the rules, the foal of this stallion will get full main book papers of the desired Association. This is only different for dilute or coloured stallions in Holsteiner Verband and Hannoverian Verband due to their non tobiano and non dilution rule.

I am breeding horses since more than 25 years in Germany and I know what I am talking about.

The dilution of the Creams came from the Achal-Tekke used in the TBs and there is nothing to doubt about. There is a color forum on the TB data base in USA just check that out to learn more.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=21

 
[ QUOTE ]
When I read this history of Milkie yesterday it shows very clearly there was a financial gain from having the first recorded palomino and the cynic in me has to believe that is why dilutes reappeared in TBS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well ...
wink.gif
... the REALIST in me also believes that since this is a 3rd (or possibly 4th/5th) hand account of Milkie and his history, just because "it is on the Internet" does not mean that all or part of it is true ... It was written by a person that has some interest in Milkie and palomino TB's so on the flip side, *I* could then write my account of Milkie and state it as gospel but it wouldnt mean that my account was any more or less accurate than this author's is ...
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Whenever this story does come up, a bunch of people have jumped in and said "Yeah, but about that Holsteiner stallion XXX - it was said there was a mix up with him back in the 70's" or "what about that Hanoverian stallion XXX where it was proven that many of the foals that were supposed to be by him, were not?"

So I think every breed registry will have their "oops!" that occured 20 / 30 / 50 years ago and not many people know or care about them now as really and truly if there was an "oops!" occuring 50 years back, what difference does it make 3 or 5 generations later in this foal standing in front of you now???
 
This statement still appears on the WB site, so could someone please tell me what will happen if a TB grades into say the TBF Stud book? As a TB they are eligible to apply as is the Arab & AA. I have noticed some unusal Arabs in my research

All Stallions must be registered with the BWBS/WBS-UK or BSHR and have a WR number before entry to the Stallion Grading can be accepted.

No Albino’s or Cremello’s are eligible for entry.


Perhaps I am reading it all wrong
 
Sorry been away, yes buckskin in a black or very dark coat (I think on a black and tan) can “hide” if you do not know the visual clues (Ask the New Forest Pony Breeding Society, but be polite as they are on a voyage of discovery!), but in many of these photos there are tells such as the yellowish markings on the belly and nose (previously thought to be pangare). or the hue of the coat. Personally my eye is in having the New Forest very nearby and all those “Duns” to study!!!

But the odd individual aside we are talking about a dominant gene here in a breed with worldwide estimated population of 500,000 and in all these thoroughbred families there are chestnuts and bays, but yet no palominos or yellow buckskins have been seen except in two individuals from just two breeding lines, the maths do not add up. Call me suspicious but the lines close up in the modern examples of dilute TB’s are from more obscure female families and not high level performers.

We all probably have experience of what happened in breeding horses pre DNA and pre Blood testing which came in in TB’s in 1977 followed by DNA in 2001.

Recent genetic studies by a team led by Patrick Cunningham tracing back to the 30 founder thoroughbred mares showed that up to 50% of maternal lines contained DNA they could not possess if the pedigrees were accurate, shock horror our ancestors were not all honest!!! In fact through Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA, study data was found to match that of the General Stud Book fairly closely, however more accurate genetic records have revealed several anomalies which mean that accepted lines of descent cannot be correct. So whilst outcrossing from the TB breed was not to their advantage using the wrong parents might have been (add money to any sport and hey presto).

Add to this the fact that we have a dominant gene in a male population drawn from a very narrow genetic bottleneck, this study has shown that every male TB alive today has a Y chromosome that originated with one of just three “super-stud” stallions, and the whole population taces back to just 80 individuals so where are all the dilutes? (Y STR techniques can be used in the same way as MT DNA to establish the descent of male lines, these two forms of DNA are not subject to frequent change). Perhaps this team from Dublin can answer this for us?

NB there are numerically VERY few examples of the flaxen gene in English racing families; the predominant colour is that of a very dark chestnut with the mane and tail being a shade or two darker than the coat. You only have to watch racing for a day or so and you will see this borne out, flaxen is seen even less a group (grade) level. The predominant colours appear to be bay, brown (black and tan) and dark chestnut.

For your info I have located the conditions for entry to the GSB and it goes like this

PEDIGREE
A To be eligible to be registered in the General Stud Book a horse must be
able either:
•1. To be traced down all lines of its pedigree to horses registered in
(a) The General Stud Book, and/or
(b) Any Approved Thoroughbred Stud Book:
OR
•2. To prove satisfactorily eight recorded crosses consecutively with
horses qualified as in category 1 above, including the cross of which it
is the progeny and to have satisfied the performance and approval
conditions as set out for foals in sections B 2 and 3 below.
For the purposes of the General Stud Book, horses in categories 1 and 2
above are designated “Thoroughbred”.
B In addition, a foal may be promoted from the Non-Thoroughbred Register
and registered in the Appendix to the General Stud Book when the following
conditions are satisfied:
•1. It can be satisfactorily proven that the foal results from eight recorded
crosses consecutively with “Thoroughbreds” (as designated above)
including the cross of which it is the progeny.
•2 The foal can show such performances in races open to
Thoroughbreds, in both the Thoroughbred and Non-Thoroughbred
sections of its pedigree, as to warrant its assimilation with
Thoroughbreds.
•3 The promotion is approved by the unanimous agreement of the
International Stud Book Committee.
Notwithstanding the above Conditions the Proprietors of the General Stud
Book reserve the overall right to decide what horses can at any time be
admitted, excluded, or removed from the General Stud Book and related
publications.

So effectively it's still a closed shop!!
 
Hi True Colours the article I linked to states as references

"My information comes from the following articles: December, 1969 issue of the Thoroughbred of California,
The Florida Horse, May, June,1974) by Donna Alverson),"The Impossible Palomino" by C. Bud Dugan 1968"

which is why I thought it would be quite reliable. Do you have copies of any of these articles?


I do agree totally with you whether Milkie is a TB or not has no relevance on his descendants today because they are TBs but is interesting to research him
smile.gif
and it is a lovely story
 
Hi firm - I actually have rather faded and dog eared copies of all of those articles in their entirety ...
smile.gif
... and they make for fun reading for sure!

[ QUOTE ]
But the odd individual aside we are talking about a dominant gene here in a breed with worldwide estimated population of 500,000 and in all these thoroughbred families there are chestnuts and bays, but yet no palominos or yellow buckskins have been seen except in two individuals from just two breeding lines, the maths do not add up. Call me suspicious but the lines close up in the modern examples of dilute TB’s are from more obscure female families and not high level performers.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually - call that "3" known dilute TB lines. Sylfou in Eastern Europe possessed the other known line

This guy might be another one:

FARUKO98__2_.jpg


He is a TB pony horse at the tracks in Japan, and he was a former race horse with a new career. He has achieved a literal cult following in Japan with girls holding up signs like the one you see in the background, girls screaming and throwing flowers at him when he comes on the track - literal movie star status has been accorded to him
Some say he is really a very light flaxen and not palomino but no one that I have ever talked to has actually seen him in person nor have any DNA tests been run on him either. If he is a palomino, that would be the 4th dilute line ...

[ QUOTE ]
We all probably have experience of what happened in breeding horses pre DNA and pre Blood testing which came in in TB’s in 1977 followed by DNA in 2001.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And I'm sure that it makes some purists hair turn grey to even THINK the bloodlines in their registry have been compromised in any way ...
grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
Recent genetic studies by a team led by Patrick Cunningham tracing back to the 30 founder thoroughbred mares showed that up to 50% of maternal lines contained DNA they could not possess if the pedigrees were accurate, shock horror our ancestors were not all honest!!! In fact through Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA, study data was found to match that of the General Stud Book fairly closely, however more accurate genetic records have revealed several anomalies which mean that accepted lines of descent cannot be correct. So whilst outcrossing from the TB breed was not to their advantage using the wrong parents might have been (add money to any sport and hey presto).


[/ QUOTE ]

VERY interesting! Do you have a link to that study at all or know where it was written or posted?
 
we went to the Walker gallery in 2006 to research this painting (The King of Trumps ) met the senior archivist and photographed this painting it containes 3 horses in a landscape, and is not called the King of Trumps it was belived, before investingation to be by George stubbs but upon research was believed by Sawrey Gilpin I have a copy
http://www.angrovestud.com/gallery/index.php?gallery_id=1
The paperwork does not prove this a a racehorse or TB or that it belonged to a King see the web site link for proof.

I do however hold that one should be able to introduce whatever one wants to stud book if allowed and let the market decide if it Stays!
 
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