Coloured showing at top level.

[cptrayes]

Not wanting an argument. Genuine query for you showing peeps.

I've just seen the coloured winner from hoys in h and h magazine. Of course he must have white on him somewhere, but in the photo he doesn't appear to be coloured at all.

My question is, did this horse just so far exceed the others in the class ,in all other respects than colour, that it won, or doesn't the quality of colouring count for many marks in high level coloured showing classes?

If it's the latter, I can't really see the point of having separate coloured classes?

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Which horse in question?? Sheer impulse?

 

[Rollin]

Interesting question as I know nothing of showing coloured horses. Are coat markings an important part of the judges decision and if so what % of marks go for that?

Or is the decision made on conformation and 'allure' and then the best coat marks go to the top?

 

[WelshD]

I'm a big showing fan but have to admit to not knowing a great deal about coloured horses. As far as I know the horse is judged on type same as if it was in a type class for example, hunter, show pony etc etc, the judges say that often they visualise them as a plain colour to take in to account optical illusions of conformation 'faults' caused by the patterns but I would say that some coloured markings are more pleasing to the eye than others and suppose that judges will have their own preferences regarding this

Coloured horses are often at a disadvantage to other colours when it comes to many showing classes - for example last year was the only year (as far as I know) that a coloured pony got through to the show pony classes at HOYS and of course options for traditionals are limited without coloured classes so I guess those two things contribute to the rationale for having coloured classes

If you are referring to the champ, I believe the horse has more white one side than the other, perhaps the shot is taken from the other side? Certainly the horse was strongly tipped for the top spot and was a very popular and classy winner

 

[Carrots&Mints]

If you are on about sheer impulse it has a massive white mark down from its neck to its shoulder. Any colouring above the kneees is then classes as a coloured and can be registard CHAPS and BSPA.

WHAT is a “COLOURED” HORSE or PONY?
The definition of a “coloured” horse or pony is one whose coat colour is either white and black (piebald) or
white and any other colour (skewbald), e.g. bay, roan, chestnut; with a patch of naturally occurring white
coat. This white patch must be on the body above the level of the stifle or elbow, excluding any face
markings. Any white marking below this does not qualify. Manes and tails may also be white or have white
in them. Appaloosa animals with belly markings do not qualify.
If there is any doubt as to whether an animal is classified as coloured, photographs showing all markings
should be submitted to CHAPS (UK) Administration for referral to the Board of Directors at the next
available meeting. If further clarification is required a representative of CHAPS Board of Directors will be
required to inspect the animal at a mutually agreed location. Should further verification prove necessary,
DNA testing will be required for the presence of the “colour” gene.
Animals with the fading colour gene, common with grey (blue) and whites, when colour definition is not
apparent will be known as “historical” coloureds. It is at the discretion of the owner whether or not an
animal which is historically coloured should be shown

Taken from the CHAPS rulebook http://www.chapsuk.com/images/membership/forms/CHAPS2014MembersHbk.pdf

 

[be positive]

I think it is explained fairly well on the same page, "colour coding", the horse should be looked at as if it were a plain colour and be able to fit the same criteria as any show horse, I think the photo is not the best, a quick search found this which shows he has more white on the near side, I was also wondering how he could be described as coloured based on the photo in H&H.

https://www.facebook.com/wayne.thorneycroft

 

[Carrots&Mints]

and also it goes on type of horse, so hack, riding horse, hunter or warmblood type in the NNH, then in the NCT you have show cobs, traditionals, natives and vanners

 

[cptrayes]

So provided the horse is coloured, does it make any difference to the result if the horse is 'pleasingly', whatever that would mean, marked?

For example, of the horse in h and h had a conformationally identical twin, with equal white on each side - for me anyway a much more pleasing picture - would the twin win?

And what level of superb colouring would be sufficient to get a placing above something that, say, had a slightly less impressive trot or canter?

What I'm trying to say is, does the colour actually count at all?

 

[WelshD]

I've tried to explain a bit above with regards to why we may have those classes.

I think judges probably do have their preferences regarding colour/even-ness of colour etc. I did see a thread on a showing forum stating that the best possible coloured show horse has dark knees and hocks, dark mane and tail (or if different colours then a sharp difference in colour as opposed to a 'salt and pepper look') and colour markings on the body that are sharply defined (no fuzzy edges) on that thread others seemed in agreement but then that doesn't mean that those things make the perfect show horse just goes to confirm a little that some people will have personal preferences

 

[cptrayes]

I've tried to explain a bit above with regards to why we may have those classes.

I think judges probably do have their preferences regarding colour/even-ness of colour etc. I did see a thread on a showing forum stating that the best possible coloured show horse has dark knees and hocks, dark mane and tail (or if different colours then a sharp difference in colour as opposed to a 'salt and pepper look') and colour markings on the body that are sharply defined (no fuzzy edges) on that thread others seemed in agreement but then that doesn't mean that those things make the perfect show horse just goes to confirm a little that some people will have personal preferences

Yes, thank you Welsh D, I do understand completely about coloured classes for horses that don't fit into any other category, that makes a lot of sense.

I can also see the history of separating the others, because there used to be such dreadful prejudice against coloureds. If the coat colour only makes a tiny difference in a number class, for example, I wonder how much longer it will make sense to judge them separately.

I've got a stunningly marked paint, but I'm under no illusions that there's anything stunning about his conformation . Luckily, I'm not into showing, but now I own one I find myself more interested in other people's show coloureds.

 

[ElliePippa]

At the top level markings really don't matter providing they are actually a 'coloured' horse and pony. Judging is generally encouraged to look past the colouring and more at conformation and way of going, and whether they are true to type. I suppose sometimes if a particular marking produces the look of a conformational defect, this could cause a lower placing if its not correctly identified by the judge.
I personally have seen an increase in minimally marked coloureds, I think it may have something to do with the upkeep of the coat and stains!

 

[cptrayes]

That's really interesting, thank you. I think it's a real shame that the markings don't count more, it seems it will just turn into any hunter, etc class where there are the same classes for non coloureds.

I only bought my paint for his colours, I just love them

 

[be positive]

Other than a personal preference there is no reason why the actual colour should be more influential certainly at top level, type, conformation, movement and way of going has to take precedence otherwise it would just be a class for the colour and how they are marked which would mean more horses bred for colour and less care taken about correct conformation etc which is how we have ended up with the market flooded with so many poorly put together cobs that have pretty markings with no consideration given to whether they will stand up to doing any work.
Your horse has more going for him than just his markings, he is a quality type who should be useful even if he is not a show horse he has been bred to do a job not just look pretty, even if that is partly why you bought him I am sure it was not the only reason.

 

[Sparkles]

A good horse is never a bad colour as the old saying goes.

Conformation trumps colour.

 

[conniegirl]

markings are no part of coloured showing except that the horse must have splodges.
Conformation, type and performance, which is how it should be, breeding for colour over substance should be heavily discouraged!
The black hocks, black tail and black mane preferences come from exhibitors as keeping a tail and hocks clean is far easier if they are black. Manes are easier to plait if they are not freshly washed which is impossible if the mane is white.
Minimaly marked is again preferable as its easier to clean AND there are unlikely to be optical illusions created by splodges in the wrong place.

 

[doriangrey]

So is it really a class for horses that can't compete in classes where breed/type dictates solid colour? I don't know a lot about showing but can't a Welsh look coloured because of the Sabino gene although they aren't registered/approved with too much white? Can you have coloured show hunters for example? You don't see any blue-eyed cream connies at shows although you can register them now, they just aren't recognised but some are very good types.

 

[conniegirl]

Coloured classes came about because of the extreme pejudice against them that there used to be.
There is less prejudice now but There is still a prejudice in some classes, Coloured hunters are rare, Coloured hunter ponies are slightly less rare, coloured show ponies night on unheard of.
You wont find a coloured hack as the judges just dont place them so people turn them out as 15hh hunter ponies or small riding horses.

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Don't forget they mark them on the ride aswell, and in the horses a ride judge will actually get on

 

[jhoward]

there's definitely a preference to "even markings, you don't see the horses with a small splodge of colour doing so well, even leg markings etc all tend to be in the higher placing's.

 

[conniegirl]

jhoward, you do see minimaly marked horses doing very very well.

 

[cptrayes]

Other than a personal preference there is no reason why the actual colour should be more influential certainly at top level, type, conformation, movement and way of going has to take precedence otherwise it would just be a class for the colour and how they are marked which would mean more horses bred for colour and less care taken about correct conformation etc which is how we have ended up with the market flooded with so many poorly put together cobs that have pretty markings with no consideration given to whether they will stand up to doing any work.
Your horse has more going for him than just his markings, he is a quality type who should be useful even if he is not a show horse he has been bred to do a job not just look pretty, even if that is partly why you bought him I am sure it was not the only reason.

Of course I wouldn't have bought him if he was a donkey, but I probably wouldn't have bought him if he was bay, either. He is long in the back, but he does have a delightful temperament and a very active set of paces. I would have taken him with less flashy paces, but not with a worse temperament, so colour wasn't all I was looking for by a long chalk, no.

I do think it's a shame that minimally coloured horses are becoming more common among the winners of coloured classes, I do like to see strong markings myself.

 

[MagicMelon]

Animals with the fading colour gene, common with grey (blue) and whites, when colour definition is not
apparent will be known as “historical” coloureds. It is at the discretion of the owner whether or not an
animal which is historically coloured should be shown

Interesting as I have one with the fading gene, she was born clearly skewbald but now you can barely see the patches so she basically looks white. I have shown her in the odd coloured class but TBH I find it a bit pointless and have stopped because at the end of the day the judge will naturally go for the nicely marked ones. I don't think it should matter how they are marked but I guess its sort of the same as seeing a dark bay with 4 bright white stockings - they just look flashier already!