Comparing/analysing jump seats

[stangs]

Any recommendations of resources that discuss different styles of jump seat and the biomechanics/explanation behind that style: comparing styles from discipline to discipline, or just individual styles (I see to recall a show jumper who would practically stand up straight over jumps?). Books, articles, YouTube channels, anything. I'm slowly getting back into jumping and I'd like to think a little more critically about what my body's doing.

 

[sbloom]

Can't recommend anything written but will just say that i think a lot of discussion on jumping position is based on the seat being too far behind the stirrups. The newer approach of bring the hips forwards (we've discussed it on here somewhere) is because if you fold then you're too far behind the centre of gravity. So many riders having to haul themselves up over the pommel.

 

[stangs]

Off to find that thread. What/who set off the trend towards bringing the hips forward, I wonder?

 

[sbloom]

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/leg-position-jumping-help.814616/ - @LEC brings it up on the second half of the first page.

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm still totally and utterly confused by terminology of bringing hips forwards... So if anyone can actually show it in action that would be helpful ?

 

[TPO]

George Morris used to write a column for Practical Horseman where he would critique pictures of people jumping (readers sent pictures in for this).

It was informative and educational.

There are also lots of videos on YouTube of GM teaching which was educational in many respects.

However it's a bit of an icky situation because he's banned by SafeSport because of the s3xual abuse of minors so he should be persona non gratta.

I can't think of another resource off the top of my head that analyses riders jumping positions

 

[LEC]

George Morris used to write a column for Practical Horseman where he would critique pictures of people jumping (readers sent pictures in for this).

It was informative and educational.

There are also lots of videos on YouTube of GM teaching which was educational in many respects.

However it's a bit of an icky situation because he's banned by SafeSport because of the s3xual abuse of minors so he should be persona non gratta.

I can't think of another resource off the top of my head that analyses riders jumping positions

I think Beezie Madden does it now. She is quite pointed!!
Eventing Nation often does who jumped it best.
I watch hours of Sjers and slow mo videos on You Tube.

 

[millitiger]

Tamarack Hill Farm on Facebook does some good articles on jumping form.

I would also carefully look at the body shape of the people you want to emulate and try to find someone similar build/height to you.
You can admire the others, of course, however I found it helps if you see what suits those most similar to you.

 

[stangs]

Thanks all, off to go try learn something.

There are also lots of videos on YouTube of GM teaching which was educational in many respects.

However it's a bit of an icky situation because he's banned by SafeSport because of the s3xual abuse of minors so he should be persona non gratta.

I suppose if you’re watching videos uploaded a while back by someone else, you’re not technically supporting him in any way that counts? Having said that, I did see a recent comment (a few months old) on a video of one his clinics, where the commenter said he was starting to critique jump seats again…

 

[TPO]

Thanks all, off to go try learn something.


I suppose if you’re watching videos uploaded a while back by someone else, you’re not technically supporting him in any way that counts? Having said that, I did see a recent comment (a few months old) on a video of one his clinics, where the commenter said he was starting to critique jump seats again…

From reading COTH he's allegedly never stopped working and still has a lot of supporters and clients paying him.

 

[Starzaan]

I really rate Noelle Floyd - there’s probably something like this on there.

 

[LEC]

I think you need to be careful with the focus that’s coming through on American seat. It has developed for a very specific reason and yet is useless on xc for instance. I know top trainers who go to America and then have to spend quite a lot of time stopping the light seat on xc.
it’s the same as the Southern Hemisphere xc seat which is mostly done by skinny men like Burto and Tim Price. Jonelle doesn’t ride the same way as wouldn’t be able to. Tbh having obsessed about rider form over a jump I have stopped looking at it all now as realised the balance between contact and leg is 100x more important in jumping with the rider balanced.

 

[paddi22]

wehorse.com have good video by Chris bartle on a safe xc seat. here's a preview of it

I have found it really interesting at clinics how the advice for your seat has changed over the decades. it's been fascinating to see it nearly go back to a defensive, safer, hunting-style position for xc.

 

[Goldenstar]

Blyth tait is an interesting one to slow mo and watch

 

[maya2008]

I have seen clinics where riders were told just to stand up straight for small jumps (with varying success) and all variations on the standard fold.

I do think though that the seat each rider develops is probably also related to their discipline and their horse/pony’s habits. I had a pony once who liked to half take off (front up, legs tucked) then duck before the back legs left the floor. No warning, you’d think you were jumping and then you weren’t. She taught me to have a defensive seat (the one where you’d land without falling over) that was low over her back, so I had half a chance of staying on. Her actual jump was smooth and easy! SJ pony in contrast was a ‘get out of my way on the approach and I will take off when I jolly well want to’ kind of mare. No guarantees when you were hurtling into space (massive back end, very powerful jump) but she always took off and never stopped. More ‘hips forward’ on her, or you’d get left behind on the take-off. My husband’s cob is also ‘hips forward’ because he likes to pause to assess the situation, then leap. Zero natural jumping talent but he loves to have a go, so we take him to arena hire once a week to have fun. In contrast, my NF is small and short in front so I have to be extremely careful I don’t end up weighting her forehand - my jumping seat on her is set further back. I have noticed my son adapt similarly between SJ pony and the NF - more forwards on the first, weight slightly further back on the second.

 

[sbloom]

I can't see how telling someone to stand up is in any way correct or helpful, biomechanically it makes no sense for horse or rider.

 

[Palindrome]

I can't see how telling someone to stand up is in any way correct or helpful, biomechanically it makes no sense for horse or rider.

Some people throw themselves forward, this puts a lot of weight on the horse's shoulders and is counter productive particularly at take off. You don't really need to fold forward for a small jump and you should remain above the center of gravity so slightly folding at the knee and elbow so you are out of the saddle and souple with your hands can be enough.

 

[paddi22]

I've seen 'stand up' used on people in lessons and it's worked to get them to drop weight down in their heel and stop them folding and keep them in better balance

 

[sbloom]

Some people throw themselves forward, this puts a lot of weight on the horse's shoulders and is counter productive particularly at take off. You don't really need to fold forward for a small jump and you should remain above the center of gravity so slightly folding at the knee and elbow so you are out of the saddle and souple with your hands can be enough.

Which can be avoided, to an extent, by having a saddle that puts the rider more over their feet. The you don't have to climb onto the shoulders to be balanced over your feet...popping up out of the saddle is standing up, and I don't see that as helpful.

I've seen 'stand up' used on people in lessons and it's worked to get them to drop weight down in their heel and stop them folding and keep them in better balance

Interesting, with many reasons for the heel not being down I wonder if there's a better way, and what would be the reason not to fold? You certainly be folded and in balance, and biomechanically correct, surely?

 

[paddi22]

W

Interesting, with many reasons for the heel not being down I wonder if there's a better way, and what would be the reason not to fold? You certainly be folded and in balance, and biomechanically correct, surely?

yeah totally agree. from what I can see when people are asked to 'stand up' most stiffen the knee and leg, stand on the ball of the foot and end up pivoting on the knee. it would be amazing if bio mechanics were included as part of instructor training as an understanding is so essential.

 

[sbloom]

yeah totally agree. from what I can see when people are asked to 'stand up' most stiffen the knee and leg, stand on the ball of the foot and end up pivoting on the knee. it would be amazing if bio mechanics were included as part of instructor training as an understanding is so essential.

And for jumping, it's focused on more for flatwork, but ultimately it's a long way off, and anyone wanting to really work on their position need to consider three things IMO, bodywork for themselves, as a minimum pilates/yoga or something like Rider Reboot (or both!), and a ridden biomechanics coach. Not cheap, but most of that should be short term, and a good trade off for a few weeks of regular lessons to make serious change.

 

[TPO]

And for jumping, it's focused on more for flatwork, but ultimately it's a long way off, and anyone wanting to really work on their position need to consider three things IMO, bodywork for themselves, as a minimum pilates/yoga or something like Rider Reboot (or both!), and a ridden biomechanics coach. Not cheap, but most of that should be short term, and a good trade off for a few weeks of regular lessons to make serious change.

And none of that matters if the rider doesn't have "feel" <dons tin hat> ?

 

[sbloom]

And none of that matters if the rider doesn't have "feel" <dons tin hat> ?

It matters, a lot, we can all improve, but yes, it takes certain innate talents to be a great, I'm sure.

 

[TheMule]

There are lots of different styles that work, but the most important thing is to find a secure balance, to have a strong core and to give freedom to the horse.
I've been taught to jump out of a forward balance so that your don’t really need to move your body over the fence but other people would really struggle with that as it's not 'plugged in'. My horses have always jumped very well and are very careful. Chicken or egg?!