Competition outcasts :-(

M

macarthur

Active Member
Joined
25 June 2009
Messages
38
Visit site
Imagine the scenario (True story) - you compete in dressage after 5 years of training your horse, all those years of slog and going without... pay off and now as the dreams start to come true and your winning and getting high scores. Disaster strikes. Your horse receives a trauma injury in the stable and loses the ability to be bitted. End of dream... your high powered well trained friend is without purpose - sure you can ride out on hacks but that wasn't the plan... What is stopping you competing in a bit-less bridle? The Equestrian associations that live in the last century - times have moved on... we know that you don't need force to achieve control, communication or outline... bits dont make us safe... its down to training... not bridles bitted or bitless...its in the hands of gentleness and empathy and timing - have a look at the petition and ask yourself if CHOICE is a fair request... one day you might want that choice x

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://chn.ge/1iqBp0q&h=_AQF5ke1A
 
Auslander said:
Pretty easily, looking at the action of a lot of bitless bridles!
Click to expand...

Have to agree. Until a couple of weeks ago I was openminded. Then I went to a lecture day by Hilary Clayton held byBHS. She is a leading biomechanics expert and one of the lectures included the measuring of pressure due to various tack.

I was shocked by the bit less bridle example.

The pressure measurements showed it basically acting as a clamp on the horse's head. The forces powered far stronger than a tight flash.

Whilst bit less may have a role for activities with a light contact, I will now need a lot of convincing to consider bit less for when an outline is required.
 
How can acceptance of the bit be judged, if there isn't one? Unfortunately, the refined us of the bit as an aid, plays a major role in dressage training and therefore judging. Personally, I don't think there can ever be 'contact' as defined by dressage training in a bitless.
 
Not all bitless bridles work like that though, there are milder versions just as there are milder bits. The trick would be for only the milder style, ie a sidepull, to be allowed. It is perfectly achievable to have a horse working correctly into a contact in a sidepull, many bitted rider would be surprised by the feel you can have bitless. I wish more would try it, even just as an experiment.

I ride bitted and bitless (sidepull), I have found that every horse I've sat on bitless has gone better than in a bit, however I still ride with a bit due to it being essential to compete. I do believe I should have the choice though and be able to compete bitless if I want.
 
macarthur said:
Imagine the scenario (True story) - you compete in dressage after 5 years of training your horse, all those years of slog and going without... pay off and now as the dreams start to come true and your winning and getting high scores. Disaster strikes. Your horse receives a trauma injury in the stable and loses the ability to be bitted. End of dream... your high powered well trained friend is without purpose - sure you can ride out on hacks but that wasn't the plan... What is stopping you competing in a bit-less bridle? The Equestrian associations that live in the last century - times have moved on... we know that you don't need force to achieve control, communication or outline... bits dont make us safe... its down to training... not bridles bitted or bitless...its in the hands of gentleness and empathy and timing - have a look at the petition and ask yourself if CHOICE is a fair request... one day you might want that choice x

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http://chn.ge/1iqBp0q&h=_AQF5ke1A
Click to expand...

If you don't like the rules of the organisation then start your own!

Organise and run your own dressage competitions where bitless is permissible or you could go the whole hog and say it's bitless only, no bits allowed. Then you can compete to your hearts content and over time, if you had large takeup and it was done in a professional manner, the various organisations would notice and realise the size of the market.

Positive change happens through proactive people taking action, not whining and complaining
 
Last edited:
Scarlett said:
Not all bitless bridles work like that though, there are milder versions just as there are milder bits. The trick would be for only the milder style, ie a sidepull, to be allowed. It is perfectly achievable to have a horse working correctly into a contact in a sidepull, many bitted rider would be surprised by the feel you can have bitless. I wish more would try it, even just as an experiment.

I ride bitted and bitless (sidepull), I have found that every horse I've sat on bitless has gone better than in a bit, however I still ride with a bit due to it being essential to compete. I do believe I should have the choice though and be able to compete bitless if I want.
Click to expand...

See OP, this is a reasoned argument that I fully agree with. It doesn't use emotive language to try and smack a point home, but instead says that while the introduction of bitless bridles in dressage would need careful governing (just like with bits) ultimately it should be allowed.
 
I knew a guy who used to ride his mare in a big ol' hackamore with shanks as long as my arm (well, nearly), on a contact, with her nose on her chest. If the poor mare dared to try to move her head, he'd sit back and yank on that hackamore for all he was worth. He was seen by some at the barn as a dressage expert as well. I thought that anyone who rode their horse like that was clearly an a$$.

I think you would need very carefully drawn rules about which bitless bridles were acceptable, hopefully based on those pressure tests scientists are now doing on nosebands. It would not simply be a matter of the FEI or BD going "Yay! Bitless is allowed!" Because a lot of bitless bridles, i.e. hackamores with giant shanks, can be pretty harsh things.
 
Lolo said:
See OP, this is a reasoned argument that I fully agree with. It doesn't use emotive language to try and smack a point home, but instead says that while the introduction of bitless bridles in dressage would need careful governing (just like with bits) ultimately it should be allowed.
Click to expand...


Thanks Lolo.

I think there are an awful lot of misconceptions out there re bitless bridles. They are not just for the 'Hippies' who use rhythm beads and treeless saddles, far from it! My horses all go straighter and soft in a sidepull than any other bridle, I use them to help improve my horses way of going which in turn improves how they go when a bit is used again. I prefer the feel of a sidepull, I find the communication clearer, maybe because my horses are more willing to listen. Either way it's another tool in my own kit that I use to improve my horses way of going, just as another irder would put on a flash, or a martingale, or change to a different bit.

Yes the issue of what bitless bridles could/should be allowed isn't simple, personally I see an english hackamore or cross under bridle as the bitless equivalent of a gag/pelham and thus not suitable for dressage, however I don't get why a simple sidepull couldn't be made legal to offer riders the option. At the end of the day this rule wouldnt affect the riders who currently ride bitted, you would be able to continue as you are, but I think this is more than just a bitted v bitless debate and more about offering riders the choice, just as you have with different snaffles and nosebands, and those of you who feel a horse cant go 'correctly' in a bitless bridle would have nothing to fear as the bitless horses obviously wouldnt score as high as the bitted riders ;)

I can show you plenty of pics and vids of my Tb's working 'correctly' in a dressage 'acceptable' frame, and jumping, in bitless bridles. Half the time folk don't even notice the absence of a bit, I've even had friends ride then get off and only then notice that they were riding bitless all along. I think a lot of competative people would be surprised by what they could achieve with their horse in a simple bitless bridle.
 
Scarlett what do you mean by sidepull? Can you post a picture? I ask as I have a Micklem and I have ridden with it bitless on the "softest" setting (the reins were attached to the d-rings that would usually hold a bit).

My horse doesn't work "in a frame" anyway but she was much more forward and so very easy to "steer".

I did it as an experiment as she just won't work forwards AND into a contact so I wanted to see if it was a lazy issue or a bit/contact issue

Also like you said no one noticed either ;)
 
I don't have a pic of the western style sidepull on this laptop, sadly, but I can say I too use a Micklem on that setting as it's basically a sidepull. I love the Micklem for the fact I can add or remove a bit as I wish.

The more I ride bitless the more I want to ride bitless though and although I will put a bit in for dressage I'd still like to have the option. My 'old' lad is coming back from injury and as I had no plans to compete him he has been bitless a lot, he's going so well however I might tart him up a bit and go do some dressage - he loves going to parties - but I'd prefer to keep him bitless and guess I will just have to compete HC if I'm allowed too.

ETA: I guess this is as good an example as any of a sidepull.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Western-L...t=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item25846a5c89

Basically as I understand it it doesn't have anything that tightens and thus adds pressure, just a simple cavesson design with reins attached to two fixed rings.
 
Last edited:
Slightly curious that if you are who I think you are - that you held a bt amnesty to send bits to Gambia. While a very worthwhile cause and the sentiment behind it is commendable, but surely a bit hypocritical that bits are not okay for your horses, but they are for Gambian ones?
 
I am who you think I am, - you are being daft to the point of ignorance - I am not saying BAN BITS - do you girls actually read English? I/we are saying give the rider a CHOICE. end of story. That's an analogy like saying travel by bus or train... there is a preference one is NOT better for the other- its a choice. The bits did go to GAMBIA (as part of the Make Poverty History campaign) AS DID I on my money to distribute them (now find fault in that too) and if you could see the dreadful bits used on donkeys - wire twisted in circles the size of oranges you would know why they need our snaffle bits. don't try to catch me out - my ethics are not for challenging. I said simply that if you want to ride bitless - you cant under current archaic rules (there is no proof you NEED a bit or that a bit creates the perfect athlete) - the leading scientists and leading vets like Bob Baskerville FEI vet and London Olymics team vet 2012 want bitless included. that has diddly squat to do with the dreadful mistreatment through poverty and ignorance in Africa - shame on you for trying to draw a comparison.. how low can YOU get!!! with regards to Hilary Clayton - I SO LOVE OUT OF CONTEXT quotes ... she referred to the pressure being the same - bitless or bitted (thats what the petition says) and every individual horse reacts to either bridle accordingly and that has more to do with the rider abilities and past learned experiance's by the horse. I wonder if any of you actually took the time to read the petition, that has come about after writing to the Associations - its a reasonable request a no-brainer to a moron on speed - choice... thats all ;-)
 
Scarlett said:
Thanks Lolo.

I think there are an awful lot of misconceptions out there re bitless bridles. They are not just for the 'Hippies' who use rhythm beads and treeless saddles, far from it! My horses all go straighter and soft in a sidepull than any other bridle, I use them to help improve my horses way of going which in turn improves how they go when a bit is used again. I prefer the feel of a sidepull, I find the communication clearer, maybe because my horses are more willing to listen. Either way it's another tool in my own kit that I use to improve my horses way of going, just as another irder would put on a flash, or a martingale, or change to a different bit.

Yes the issue of what bitless bridles could/should be allowed isn't simple, personally I see an english hackamore or cross under bridle as the bitless equivalent of a gag/pelham and thus not suitable for dressage, however I don't get why a simple sidepull couldn't be made legal to offer riders the option. At the end of the day this rule wouldnt affect the riders who currently ride bitted, you would be able to continue as you are, but I think this is more than just a bitted v bitless debate and more about offering riders the choice, just as you have with different snaffles and nosebands, and those of you who feel a horse cant go 'correctly' in a bitless bridle would have nothing to fear as the bitless horses obviously wouldnt score as high as the bitted riders ;)

I can show you plenty of pics and vids of my Tb's working 'correctly' in a dressage 'acceptable' frame, and jumping, in bitless bridles. Half the time folk don't even notice the absence of a bit, I've even had friends ride then get off and only then notice that they were riding bitless all along. I think a lot of competative people would be surprised by what they could achieve with their horse in a simple bitless bridle.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you Scarlett.

This is not a dig at bitted but I just wanted to show this to those more sceptical towards the idea of bitless and dressage. This may not be perfect, but I think it's a pretty harmonious and pleasant test to watch and it is just to show that horses can work properly without a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA
 
macarthur said:
I am who you think I am, - you are being daft to the point of ignorance - I am not saying BAN BITS - do you girls actually read English? I/we are saying give the rider a CHOICE. end of story. That's an analogy like saying travel by bus or train... there is a preference one is NOT better for the other- its a choice. The bits did go to GAMBIA (as part of the Make Poverty History campaign) AS DID I on my money to distribute them (now find fault in that too) and if you could see the dreadful bits used on donkeys - wire twisted in circles the size of oranges you would know why they need our snaffle bits. don't try to catch me out - my ethics are not for challenging. I said simply that if you want to ride bitless - you cant under current archaic rules (there is no proof you NEED a bit or that a bit creates the perfect athlete) - the leading scientists and leading vets like Bob Baskerville FEI vet and London Olymics team vet 2012 want bitless included. that has diddly squat to do with the dreadful mistreatment through poverty and ignorance in Africa - shame on you for trying to draw a comparison.. how low can YOU get!!! with regards to Hilary Clayton - I SO LOVE OUT OF CONTEXT quotes ... she referred to the pressure being the same - bitless or bitted (thats what the petition says) and every individual horse reacts to either bridle accordingly and that has more to do with the rider abilities and past learned experiance's by the horse. I wonder if any of you actually took the time to read the petition, that has come about after writing to the Associations - its a reasonable request a no-brainer to a moron on speed - choice... thats all ;-)
Click to expand...
Just to clarify, did you attend the BHS lecture a couple of weeks ago? The pressure discussed was in reference to tight and not so tight nosebands in comparison to a specific bit less bridle. The point being that the bit less bridle excerted far higher pressure. In fairness, pressure from bits was also discussed.

I have not seen your petition, but my quote is what I heard, not something carefully selected for the purpose of this thread. I appreciate it might be somewhat inconvenient for your cause.
 
Cortez said:
Thank you posting this link. It has finally made up my mind that bitless is definitely NOT the way forward for dressage.
Click to expand...

I wasn't posting it to claim that bitless should take over dressage and bits should be eradicated but for those who have horses who are happier bitless, it's not impossible as some people think to get a horse going decently.

can you elaborate on why you say this out of interest?

im no dressage expert but I find this a much prettier picture than many dressage horses you see today.
 
ImmyS said:
I wasn't posting it to claim that bitless should take over dressage and bits should be eradicated but for those who have horses who are happier bitless, it's not impossible as some people think to get a horse going decently.

can you elaborate on why you say this out of interest?

im no dressage expert but I find this a much prettier picture than many dressage horses you see today.
Click to expand...

Because, even though this is a wonderful moving horse, very well ridden and obviously well established at advanced level, you can see that the rider is not able to keep the horse straight, not able to properly collect or help the horse when he becomes a little unbalanced. The horse is very hollow behind the saddle, and far from being "prettier" the horse looks insecure and worried throughout. These are all technical, dressagey things but become glaringly evident at this level of work. I have no doubt that a lower level horse would not be so inconvenienced, but to claim that it goes better without a conventional bridle on is untrue unless it goes even worse with one on, which I would doubt. Yes, it is interesting to see this but it is certainly not going to help the cause or advance the argument.

I actually wouldn't object to allowing approved bitless bridles in competitions, but don't condone silly, strident demands to do so.
 
Last edited:
I don't pretend to know anything about dressage rules but can you not go HC in a bit less?
 
Last edited:
macarthur said:
I am who you think I am, - you are being daft to the point of ignorance - I am not saying BAN BITS - do you girls actually read English? I/we are saying give the rider a CHOICE. end of story. That's an analogy like saying travel by bus or train... there is a preference one is NOT better for the other- its a choice. The bits did go to GAMBIA (as part of the Make Poverty History campaign) AS DID I on my money to distribute them (now find fault in that too) and if you could see the dreadful bits used on donkeys - wire twisted in circles the size of oranges you would know why they need our snaffle bits. don't try to catch me out - my ethics are not for challenging. I said simply that if you want to ride bitless - you cant under current archaic rules (there is no proof you NEED a bit or that a bit creates the perfect athlete) - the leading scientists and leading vets like Bob Baskerville FEI vet and London Olymics team vet 2012 want bitless included. that has diddly squat to do with the dreadful mistreatment through poverty and ignorance in Africa - shame on you for trying to draw a comparison.. how low can YOU get!!! with regards to Hilary Clayton - I SO LOVE OUT OF CONTEXT quotes ... she referred to the pressure being the same - bitless or bitted (thats what the petition says) and every individual horse reacts to either bridle accordingly and that has more to do with the rider abilities and past learned experiance's by the horse. I wonder if any of you actually took the time to read the petition, that has come about after writing to the Associations - its a reasonable request a no-brainer to a moron on speed - choice... thats all ;-)
Click to expand...

Because the example you gave was hinting towards writing off a horse because it couldn't wear a bit. There are other disciplines that a horse can do aside from dressage and eventing, and there's always the option of going HC (but then you don't win a prize, so I guess maybe the winning and glory does count).

Don't get me wrong, I am for choice to a degree, but there needs to be a happy medium with what is allowed and compromise on BOTH (see, I can use capitals too) sides. Would you be happy to accept that only a Micklem on the mild setting is allowable (on the basis a micklem is allowed with a bit?
 
ImmyS said:
I totally agree with you Scarlett.

This is not a dig at bitted but I just wanted to show this to those more sceptical towards the idea of bitless and dressage. This may not be perfect, but I think it's a pretty harmonious and pleasant test to watch and it is just to show that horses can work properly without a bit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUNsC5RNmA
Click to expand...

I'm with Cortez on this one, although I get what you're saying and it looks like a big moving poewrful horse, and I would plop off in the first trot, I'm not seeing that as a the best advert for bitless riding.
 
Lgd said:
Can I suggest the OP pays some attention to dressage news. There are some trials planned with bitless.
Click to expand...

Hi Lgd, do you have any more info on this?
I have a young horse who I am training bitless and would like the chance to compete in dressage. Bitless for me is a personal choice, I am not anti bits when horses have been trained correctly but I do hate to see so many horses these days with their mouths clamped shut with too tight nosebands
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top