Competition outcasts :-(

Pick-a-Lilly said:
Hi Lgd, do you have any more info on this?
I have a young horse who I am training bitless and would like the chance to compete in dressage. Bitless for me is a personal choice, I am not anti bits when horses have been trained correctly but I do hate to see so many horses these days with their mouths clamped shut with too tight nosebands
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The Dutch federation are doing some trials and BD announced that they would be doing so as well. Not sure when it is going to happen though, just know it is planned
 
Pick-a-Lilly said:
Hi Lgd, do you have any more info on this?
I do hate to see so many horses these days with their mouths clamped shut with too tight nosebands
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As do I, but you always have the option of NOT clamping the mouth shut and riding properly with a comfortable noseband. Surely it is more impressive to go out there and just do it properly with a bit?
 
Cortez said:
As do I, but you always have the option of NOT clamping the mouth shut and riding properly with a comfortable noseband. Surely it is more impressive to go out there and just do it properly with a bit?
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I completely agree and encourage anyone who feels this way to give it a go.

I do think riders who do this find it somewhat depressing though, that if the horse opens its mouth, at all, even for a brief moment in the lowest classes, they are quite likely to get severely dinged for it in a way that horses showing tension without being able to open the mouth will not. I have certainly seen more than one comment written right on the test, encouraging the use of a drop or a flash to "correct" even the mildest issue. I freely accept that as part of the deal but it's quite difficult as a trainer to encourage people in a path that you know will potentially put them at a disadvantage when they have tried hard to do everything right and produce a well trained horse. I can easily see why people say, "Oh heck, I'll just put a flash on."
 
Cortez said:
Because, even though this is a wonderful moving horse, very well ridden and obviously well established at advanced level, you can see that the rider is not able to keep the horse straight, not able to properly collect or help the horse when he becomes a little unbalanced. The horse is very hollow behind the saddle, and far from being "prettier" the horse looks insecure and worried throughout. These are all technical, dressagey things but become glaringly evident at this level of work. I have no doubt that a lower level horse would not be so inconvenienced, but to claim that it goes better without a conventional bridle on is untrue unless it goes even worse with one on, which I would doubt. Yes, it is interesting to see this but it is certainly not going to help the cause or advance the argument.
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Echo this, plus in would hazard a guess that this horse was trained using a bit or bits first and understood the exercises well enough to then be able to do them bitless rather than the other way around
 
Lyle said:
How can acceptance of the bit be judged, if there isn't one? Unfortunately, the refined us of the bit as an aid, plays a major role in dressage training and therefore judging. Personally, I don't think there can ever be 'contact' as defined by dressage training in a bitless.
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Technically, it's "acceptance of the hand". . .

Many western trainers teach horses to "accept the bridle" (their term for a slightly different feel but more or less the same idea) using a side pull or bosal before they are even bitted. Interestingly, despite the fact that they rarely wear nosebands it's quite unusual to see western horses with the sort of "mouth faults" - tongues out, grinding teeth etc - that seem quite common in some areas of english riding.
 
I do think that a lot of posters have missed the point - bit or bitless - BOTH are only as good as the hands at the other end! Ride with too much pressure with either and your horse will suffer. The effect is the same with even the 'kindest' of bits on the market.

Relenting or overt pressure in the mouth and ANYWHERE on the body can cause both physical and psychological issues in the horse, no more true than around the mouth area as it is so sensitive.

I haven't read Clayton's work on the bitless but know her research on bit pressure is innotive and insightfull to include some surprises. One thing she did state was that a lot of bits DO NOT work in the manner in which we are told. I'm sure the bitless works in the same manner. Her research has also told us that bitting is a matter of trial and error and is very individual to your horse. So, you may have to try several different bits to get one they are truely happy with. I suspect this is true of the bittless also.

However, swapping bits cannot replace good hands.

So, I think in my conclusion, if we were taught how to ride with better sensitivity and told from the start that rein pressure should feel as if we are holding no more than two £1 pound coins in each hand, horse welfare would improve whether bitless or not.
 
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mtj said:
Have to agree. Until a couple of weeks ago I was openminded. Then I went to a lecture day by Hilary Clayton held byBHS. She is a leading biomechanics expert and one of the lectures included the measuring of pressure due to various tack.

I was shocked by the bit less bridle example.

The pressure measurements showed it basically acting as a clamp on the horse's head. The forces powered far stronger than a tight flash.

Whilst bit less may have a role for activities with a light contact, I will now need a lot of convincing to consider bit less for when an outline is required.
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Out of curiosity, what sort of bridles did they test? Saying "a bitless bridle" is rather like saying "a bit". Some bits exert spectacular force because of their design, others much less.
 
Scarlett said:
Thanks Lolo.

I think there are an awful lot of misconceptions out there re bitless bridles. They are not just for the 'Hippies' who use rhythm beads and treeless saddles, far from it! My horses all go straighter and soft in a sidepull than any other bridle, I use them to help improve my horses way of going which in turn improves how they go when a bit is used again. I prefer the feel of a sidepull, I find the communication clearer, maybe because my horses are more willing to listen. Either way it's another tool in my own kit that I use to improve my horses way of going, just as another irder would put on a flash, or a martingale, or change to a different bit.

Yes the issue of what bitless bridles could/should be allowed isn't simple, personally I see an english hackamore or cross under bridle as the bitless equivalent of a gag/pelham and thus not suitable for dressage, however I don't get why a simple sidepull couldn't be made legal to offer riders the option. At the end of the day this rule wouldnt affect the riders who currently ride bitted, you would be able to continue as you are, but I think this is more than just a bitted v bitless debate and more about offering riders the choice, just as you have with different snaffles and nosebands, and those of you who feel a horse cant go 'correctly' in a bitless bridle would have nothing to fear as the bitless horses obviously wouldnt score as high as the bitted riders ;)

I can show you plenty of pics and vids of my Tb's working 'correctly' in a dressage 'acceptable' frame, and jumping, in bitless bridles. Half the time folk don't even notice the absence of a bit, I've even had friends ride then get off and only then notice that they were riding bitless all along. I think a lot of competative people would be surprised by what they could achieve with their horse in a simple bitless bridle.
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Very well said.

I think it would be fine to say, "Because them's the rules. Like it or lump it." (I don't necessarily agree but then the point of rules is they don't require agreement, they require adherence.) But to say "horses cannot go well without a bit" without ever having tried it seems somewhat disingenuous. And yes, the rule, should it be changed, would have to be the same - nothing with leverage, nothing that slides or tightens or changes the position of the bearing surface, other than direct rain action. There could also be width and material requirements as with bits. I don't think anyone is saying it would be open season!

I don't really have a dog in the fight because I don't expect anything to change in dressage and am not particularly bothered either way. I do, however, find direct pull bitless bridles sometimes very useful for training and I am interested that so many people are so sure they are the devil's work, never having ridden in one, learned about the different types, or even spoken to anyone who uses them in a training program (i.e. not the crazy livery who spends too much time watching NH videos ;) but someone who actually produces competition horses). Fair enough if you don't want to know, but then why bother to judge?

I am also interested in Scarlett's point - if horses will only go badly in them, why are people not in favour? It would only thin the competitive herd?

Again, I'm not on either "side" of this. But I am with Tonks, that anything that makes riders THINK about the effect they are having on their horses can only be a good thing.
 
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Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been said.

Is this not the identical argument that went on about why double bridles had to be mandatory for higher level dressage? That's changing, so I don't personally see why horses should not compete in mild action bitless bridles.

Surely dressage should be about how the horse moves, not what it's got in its mouth?
 
TarrSteps said:
Out of curiosity, what sort of bridles did they test? Saying "a bitless bridle" is rather like saying "a bit". Some bits exert spectacular force because of their design, others much less.
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I "think", but not totally sure, that it was a cook. It crossed over below the head. I'm only familiar with hackamores.

To be honest, I was expecting the tight flash noseband to show the highest pressure.

As mentioned by others the biting section was fascinating. Snaffles without lozenges look distinctly unfriendly. I have known a horse that was only schooled in a bit, and then ridden in a hackamore rest of time. This was pre sprenger days, so suspect the points of the snaffle joint were making the roof of the mouth sore.

My concerns re bit less and dressage are both the action, ie is the poll action stronger than a hanging snaffle and also, are these bridles designed with a constant contact in mind?
 
There can be no poll action without shanks, and the ones with shanks should not, I think, be allowed.

Why is constant contact a requirement? Wouldn't it be nicer to see horses ridden mainly from the seat, not the hand?

The constant contact expected in dressage is to show that the horse accepts the bit. If there is no bit, that rule won't apply, though it will be interesting to see if BD replace it with a requirement for constant rein pressure. I hope not.
 
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I am a really open minded person! However there is nothing wrong with using a bitted bridle and nose band correctly and I think more people should strive to do this. I have two points, firstly the OP can compete in western style classes in both the uk / us wherever they are based so they are not competition less. If you choose to compete in whatever discipline you must abide by the rules. Not all rules will be logical to all.

Secondly, I agree with the posters above, acceptance of the hand / bridle cannot be achieved without a bit. Even if your train your horse from the seat and leg the energy should go forward into the hand and you should still be able to show a consistent contact with the horse. If the OP Is struggling to achieve this with a bit then you would have to question the riding ability.

I find it odd that a rider could achieve contact (as defined by the German scales of training) with a bit less but not a bit.

The training methods do really interest me though so please demonstrate your point by posting videos of a horse using a bit less and bitted bridle so we can understand the difference they have on your horse! Then perhaps we could se your point. The videos I have seen of GP dressage in bitless, the horses look very strong and against the hand.

I do feel that if you want respect for your campaign for bitless dressage, you should focus on the benefits of bitless riding rather than criticising the use of bits! Clearly bitless bridles can be used in appropriately too.

You also mentioned that one your horses was unable to use a bit through injury. I also have a horse that is unable to compete due to injury, it is devastating but a fact of life we have to accept. We cannot make new classes for every new type of injury. Another example would be horses that have been de-nerved for whatever reason. People just have to accept they can't compete them. They don't demand a new competition is set up for them.
 
cptrayes said:
Not read the whole thread so apologies if this has already been said.

Is this not the identical argument that went on about why double bridles had to be mandatory for higher level dressage? That's changing, so I don't personally see why horses should not compete in mild action bitless bridles.

Surely dressage should be about how the horse moves, not what it's got in its mouth?
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Hear hear ! This ^^^^ exactly. An earlier post pointed out that BD penalises the slightest opening of a horses mouth even at lowers levels, regardless of how it is moving/responding. Why ? It is the same in the dressage element of eventing, which is stupid. As a separate point (and probably should be a different thread ) I think dressage scores weigh far too much in eventing and am sick of seeing a horse get great dressage scores, have two down SJ and still manage a win. How can that be right ?
 
So lovely to see there are so many open minded people out there. No bridle, bitted or bitless, can replace training, correct biomechanics and light hands. I am all for the choice to use bitted or bitless and would like to see more bitless competitors, but my greatest hope is to see less forced outlines and gadgets.
 
Bestdogdash said:
Hear hear ! This ^^^^ exactly. An earlier post pointed out that BD penalises the slightest opening of a horses mouth even at lowers levels, regardless of how it is moving/responding. Why ? It is the same in the dressage element of eventing, which is stupid. As a separate point (and probably should be a different thread ) I think dressage have scores weigh far too much in eventing and am sick of seeing a horse get great dressage scores, have two down SJ and still manage a win. How can that be right ?
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You should have a look at COTH or friend Denny Emerson on fb - you'll find lots of friends. :) I think that's another conversation that's done and dusted. At least in the UK you have the option of xc competitions that don't require dressage, which is not the case many places.

I'm interested in the comment that anyone who wants to ride in a hackamore can simply switch to 'western'. I can't think of any western discipline that would favour the same type of horse or style of riding. It's not just a case of switching saddles, especially for the majority of horses in the UK.

I'm also really interested in the number of people who say it's impossible to ride a horse straight, soft etc without a bit but don't seem to have tried. Aren't you at least curious? If companies like Kieffer and Amino are making side pull bridles it can't be THAT niche. I've just been given one in 'warmblood' size!

One of the reasons I do not suggest them unless a horse has a serious problem that can't be fixed with a bit is because many horses are, depressingly, nicer to ride in them. It makes people grumpy! :D

Which is neither here nor there to the conversation about competitive dressage. Part of the point of the exercise is to make horses SUBMIT - clue is right there in the directives. One of the things we have decided horses need to submit to is the bit. If you don't like it, tough. There are all sorts of things you have to do/wear/use if you want to play in that sandbox. I am more interested in the reluctance to even consider equipment that does comply with the spirt of the rules, such as bits with shaped mouthpieces (not ports - they are something different, for a different purpose) and the Spursader spur.

Mind you even after it was proven that horses do not maintain a clear three beat canter in pirouettes they left it in the requirements for the movement, so I'm not sure 'proof' comes into it. ;)
 
I quoted this same article in the last thread the OP made about this subject, because I think it is important - this is a GP rider that uses bitless in training, and hearing her opinion is vital I think.

"At the Global Dressage Forum French 24-year old Grand Prix rider Alizee Froment rode a kur to music on her Lusitano stallion Mistral du Coussoul in a bitless bridle. The horse has been trained to GP level with a bit but three months ago she decided it would be fun to do something new. Froment now also trains her 5-year old in a head collar once a week.

“I’m not against bits and bridles, but I usually ride my horses in snaffle,” Froment explained. “I do all the same things in the head collar and in a snaffle and only put the double on because I’m obliged to use it in competitions.”
The bridle Froment uses is custom-made and the reins are stitched to the noseband. There is no cross-under system, which would increase the pressure on the nose.

The freestyle was sweet with lovely half passes and passage. The piaffe was only executed once and lacked impulsion. Interesting to note was that the horse foamed and played with his mouth as if he was wearing a bit. He stayed nice and soft in the contact and the head was at the vertical."

"Wayne Channon[IDRC secretary-general] commented that “the bitless bridle is fun, but your aids are getting stronger and stronger if you keep on riding in it and it’s no longer a pleasure. With a bit I can get it super light and then when I put the bitless bridle on, it’s very good again. As an operant training method, your strength has to be greater. Some horses don’t like riding in the double and they prefer to go in a snaffle.”"

http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2011/11/03/bitless-or-not-it’s-about-having-choice
 
I think there is a very valid point to be made about refinement of the aids in order to do more precise and athletic work (although when you introduce leverage bits into the equation I think that does complicate things somewhat). After all, the whole underlying point of this is the nose is less sensitive than the gums! It's not really an argument though as there are already rules that are applied differently at different levels.
 
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