Completely at my wits end!!!

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I tacked up Hannah and lined some bits and the two nosebands I have (drop and cavesson with flash) up near the arena so I could have a bit of a play and set to with her with the determination to crack her tongue over the bit issue.

I started with a NS Verbibend and drop at which point she just kept threatening to go up which she never ever does, and really refusing to go forwards. When she did go forwards she would then grind to a halt and spin around being almost nappy! But she was REALLY unhappy in her mouth and sticking her tongue out of the side which is a new one!

So, moved on to the Cavesson alone which was a complete disaster because as soon as we walked she flicked her tongue over and wouldn't put it back under. Then added the flash, and she just seemed to grind her teeth and set her jaw and again started acting almost nappy. She was completely over reacting to any contact, then running into it, then reacting.

Ok, so Verbibend came out, and Myler Comfort Snaffle went in. Firstly, I put it up on each side one hole so it is now on the top one. This was the bit she got her tongue over with a very tight flash on Saturday. But, immediately she was happier in the Myler than the NS, so I am starting to wonder whether it is something to do with the Lozenge which is making her want to put her tongue over.

Anyway, firstly rode in the Myler without a noseband at all because by this time she was really getting stressed out (nothing new there), and I wanted to see whether it would be better with nothing at all... nope! She was constantly opening her mouth to resist the contact
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So, then the drop went on quite slack and at first it seemed to be working then she started opening her mouth against the pressure
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So, by this time, I had been faffing about for an hour and fifteen minutes without feeling any further and getting so frustrated with her... I decided to fasten the drop as tight as I could get it, and got back on.

Hey presto... she tried a few half rears and spins to get away from it, but then quickly realised that she couldn't open her mouth and got on with what I was asking. I did about 15 minutes with her, and left it because I felt this was a good time to finish.

So, is it really an option having the drop as tight as you can get it, or am I being really really cruel doing this? If this is just not going to be an option, I honestly do not know what my next step is
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The flash and cavesson didn't work as well as the very tight drop.

If you have got this far, you deserve a lovely glass of wine and some chocolates
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ummmmmmmmmmmm.............you know what......I would love to see some videos.......it is sooooooooo difficult to comment otherwise.....but would love to help....
 
Nope not cruel - fact is we think it is bloody tight but once the horse starts working there is still room for movement, and as long as it is fitted correctly it will be OK. I go the other way and have it one hole too slack just to give my horse the feeling of there being something against her, but she still goes round with her mouth open wide
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I am keeping at the soft approach as I am an eternal optimist, but in her grackle it is as tight as I can physically get it...she can still open her mouth wide tho!
 
I usually find that a problem in the mouth is a way of showing discomfort else where.Does she do it on the lunge, do you think she could be aching slightly from the return to work.It doesn't take much with a sensitive horse.
I personally would take things easy and relax both of you mentally.
My friend had a problem with her horses tongue and my daughter always said the horse had physical problems ,she sent it away for training up to regionals and it has broken.Its back has a problem and its suspensary in the hindleg.
Just relax ,hack out in straight lines,which is natural for the horse, no circles ,let her get fitter and chill.
Just my advice
 
Hannah has always been like this... I had just forgotten how bad she was
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There is no pain anywhere, I have had everything checked including back, teeth, saddle etc etc. I have been told by quite a few qualified people that this is a habit, nothing more and nothing less. She does not do it in the double at all, so I am also planning on schooling her in that when I can find it. It has been put somewhere safe when we moved house last year, and now I can't remember where it is
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The problem is that it is something that gets gradually worse... I think it stems from not being bitted properly as a youngster (I know the dealer who backed her now) and not being taught how to accept the bit correctly so the habit started and now that is what it is
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The one thing I noticed with the drop is that she was trying to open her mouth, but when I had it really tight she simply couldn't. So after a few attempts she just gave up
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She also does it out on hacks when she gets her knickers in a twist about something and this is when I worry most about it... in a dressage arena there is not far she can go if she does get it over, but for example, if she sees horses in the distance over the tongue goes and she tends to have a knack of p!55ing off
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Te he... that is exactly what Han looks like when it is not really tight then sticks her tongue out at the side once she has it over the top of the bit
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I could still move the top bit up and down slightly (that rests on the nose) even when it was really tight, so perhaps it was not as tight as I thought it was. I was hoping that perhaps a few weeks like this would just get the habit back under control, but having never used a drop before, I was so worried I was being incredibly cruel having it so tight.

I checked her mouth and nose thoroughly when she went back into the stable and there were no rub marks, cuts or bald bits
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To be honest, I got to the point where I didn't care whether she could breathe or not tonight
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... only kidding!!! I have looked at quite a few sites and fitted it as well as I could, but will take a pic and then maybe some people would be kind enough to comment on the positioning of it. I made sure it was still on the bony area of her nose, and not obstructing her breathing.

My bradoon has a lozenge in it though and it does seem to be this kind of pressure that she is currently reacting too... My Myler is really quite thin, which does seem to help her.

I could do with finding a mullen type bradoon for the double if such a thing exists...
 
Firstly I would say that I agree with the Carthorse - the tongue being over the bit is often a sign of discomfort elsewhere. When did you have her checked by your various people? it is always poss she has since done something.

Secondly, regarding the tightness of the drop. If it is just the case that she has got into the habit of putting her tongue over then you just have to break the habit and then you can go looser.

What is she like when you are just in a free walk? Perhaps you could work in/stretch with the drop a bit looser. Then when you need to start the proper work and perhaps put a little more pressure on you could tighten the noseband. Then when you do your cool down at the end you could think about loosening off the noseband again. Then perhaps with time you can loosen it off quicker and quicker.
 
i agree, have it tight for a while to get her out of the habit, and then try loosening it a little. are you sure you have it fitted high enough? if it is (4 fingers' width above top of nostril) then the angle it lies at should help keep her mouth shut.
the myler is a lovely bit, but which rings have you got on yours? if it's loose-ring, it may give more movement than she likes. just a thought.
 
Also, don't give yourself too much of a hard time about things not being textbook - horses are all individual and if she goes better with it tighter, is it really the end of the world?

Lots of top horses prefer things that are not quite 'the norm', and if she's happy, then she might just be one of them.
 
The Myler is an eggbutt, but the other bits she has been in recently have been loose ring so that could also be something to do with it... thank you.

In free walk she is absolutely fine, and when she is in a lower position for warming up and cooling down, she has the odd naughty moment, but is generally better. It is more when she is worked up into the bridle.

If I didn't know her, I would also say that this was pain related, but I am 99.9% certain that it is not. This is a habit that has been going on for quite a long period of time and is no different now to how it was before she went in foal. She had her back done a few weeks ago, and she had her teeth checked by a EDT in October when she came back into work. Her saddle is checked very regularly as I am a bit paranoid about saddles, but will have it checked again soon as I feel it is due.

She is a very stressy mare... for example, when I have been working on some transitions, say walk to trot, she will suddenly start cantering on the spot and then it takes a good 5-10 minutes to get her back to just improving the trot when I put my leg on rather than pinging about on the spot. Spencer said she uses the collection against me, because she finds it easy, as soon as she doesn't want to do something she collects and then this is when she is also messing about with her tongue. I am trying not to do much collected work, and have been following his advice of collection for a few strides then push on for medium then collect gradually and again just for a few strides.

She is also too clever for her own good, and if you try correcting something she will completely over react... for example, she needs to come under more with her right shoulder on the left rein. You have to be so careful when correcting it otherwise she goes straight into travers. I voiced my concern over this with Spencer, and he just said she is just doing what she finds easiest, and the lateral work is her forte!
 
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Also, don't give yourself too much of a hard time about things not being textbook - horses are all individual and if she goes better with it tighter, is it really the end of the world?

Lots of top horses prefer things that are not quite 'the norm', and if she's happy, then she might just be one of them.

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Thank you... she was definitely less argumentative in the mouth when it was tighter. She tried some major spins and shooting backwards for about three or four attempts, then just worked into the contact much happier than she had been. It felt almost like a lightbulb moment if I didn't feel so bad about having the drop so tight
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This is another way I know it is not pain related... she can work so well, but only when SHE wants to! I am also beginning to wonder whether she is coming into season, it will be the first one really since having Troy, so that may account for something. Her udders were slightly swollen this morning now I think about it which can happen with her when she is coming into season.

She is not a nasty mare in the slightest, just so bloody argumentative... this becomes worse when she is in season, because she becomes 100 times more sensitive to everything and completely over reacts. Tonight she was acting like an hysterical woman!
 
I have a smiliar problem with a mare of ours and can sympathise with how difficult a really sensitive girl can be. Our mare (coincidence?) I now discover was ridden by her previous owner with her tongue over the bit as they'd given up trying to correct it, so it's no surprise we inherited the problem.

We find her happiest in a Myler with eggbut hooked sides and a 3 barrell mouthpiece and fitted correctly she can't get her tongue over it. We've tried every noseband known to man and find that she's happiest with a looser grakle (heavens knows why as that totally defeats the point!). She's still as sensitive as anything and once she expects to do something (ie it's time to canter) she simply won't relax.

Good luck - if it's any consolation it is the talented ones who are difficult, often....!
 
My young mare gets her tongue over my neue schule bit everytime she is worked and it is the right size and fitted correctly.

I changed to a KK Ultra and the problem ceased, no rhyme or reason!?!
I would be inclined to look at alternatives until you find the key to her particular mouth.
 
I'm sorry to hear you're having such difficulty with your mare. However, it may be worth persevering with the Myler. If your mare has been behaving like this for some time it will take time to get her to change her behaviour. It could take up to 6 months to settle her in her mouth if she was badly bitted as a youngster. I've pasted in a link for Myler's website where they have some pointers when fitting a new bit. It might be worth thinking in terms of rebreaking her mouth, if you know what I mean. Start from day 1 as if with a youngster and go through all the steps when first bitting, leaving the bit in her mouth when she eats, lunge her from a cavesson with side reins to be bit, long rein her, getting her to accept the bit before adding the rider . Good luck.

http://www.toklat.com/myler/mbits_pointer1.html
Take your time. Knowing whether a bit is going to work or not takes time. Sometimes a horse will let you know that it is the right bit or the wrong bit in as little as 20 minutes, but often it takes several rides in a particular bit to know for sure. Plan on between three and ten rides to let you decide if a bit is going to be the right choice for you and your horse.
 
Thanks for that... I am going to work her in the Myler I think with the drop tight for a few weeks and see how we get on with that. The Myler is definitely the one she prefers, I am sure the lozenge is part of the issue with her for some reason
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The thing is she is fine with the bit in when she is being worked long and low, no issues whatsoever, it is more when she is working in a more collected manner... She is fine with it when long lining, and lunging etc etc. it is more when she is getting stressed out about something (which is quite often by the way) that it seems to flare up and once she has got the tongue over she then keeps doing it over and over again and has a real girly strop!
 
Becki - she's being a horse - you ask her to work harder, she says 'no thanks, see how easily I can evade you if I do this'. Just be thankful she puts her tongue over the bit rather than, say, rearing!

She's a sensitive mare so she'd let you know if she hated the noseband done up tightly (rather than just being mildly annoyed that she can no longer evade!).

You worry too much... all horses have an evasion
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I really sympathise with you, she sounds just like Gin. I put Gin in a drop which worked for a while but she soon discovered how to get her tongue over the bit. Once she mastered that she got gradually worse, to the point where I had to put her back in the flash.
Have you tried a crank noseband? Thats the next thing on my list to try. At the moment shes in her double while she learns her changes then will be going back to her snaffle with a crank.
 
Ah ha... now, I tried a friend's Doctor Cooks (is that the name of it???) about three years ago on her, again due to this problem, and I will never ever again put her in a bitless bridle!!! I won't go into details, but let's say she had the same reaction that she had with one of the Dually Halters
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Spotted Cat - you are very right there! It is her evasion, nothing more and nothing less, but it is bloody frustrating. She certainly let me know that she was not happy in the NS bit on Monday night, and when she was in the Myler and the drop, yes she was annoyed but that was all!

Nat - Grrr, it's irritating isn't it! Han doesn't do it in the double but I can't find it anywhere. I'm going to have a really good look for it this afternoon!

Today we will continue with the Myler and the drop... God help us at the competition on Saturday, I might have to have someone on site holding all my bits and nosebands
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She has no pressure on her at the competition because at the moment I am just getting her used to travelling (she is a stressy traveller) and going out again, but it would be nice not to do the whole test with the tongue over this time
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