Concern over livery....

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A new horse joined my yard 2 mnths ago and I am very concerned about his feeding levels.

He is a 14.2hh welsh cob, and had a laminitic episode 6 yrs ago so the owners are naturally concerned that this may happen again, but I am of the opinion that they are actually starving the horse.

He is out 24/7 on a 1 acre bare paddock and the only feed he gets is one slice of hay and 1/2 scoop chaff a day plus a vit/min supplement, which I cannot see makes up even half the BHS recommended 2.5% of forage.

When he is fed he is clearly desparate for his food, and spends the rest of the day leaning over the fence to get at grass on the other side, which I have now had to electrify to prevent damage to the fencing.

Since he has arrived here he has gradually dropped more weight and can see the muscle detioration on his hind quarters, and has lost all shine to his coat.

I have spoken a couple of times to the owners re increasing his hay allowance and don't get me wrong - he does not look anywhere near a RSPCA case, but am worried about any long term internal damage that is being done.

His owners feel that he is fine so is it my place to intefere? Equally I haven't had any personal dealings with laminitics, but as he has had only one epsisode several years ago, cannot help feeling that they are being over cautious.....?

Any opinions?
 
It's a really difficult situation and i understand your dilemma. If you've spoken to them i can't see how much more you can do other than to continue to encourage them to feed a bit mire. Don't be tempted to do it yourself as you could end up in a really dodgy situation.
 
Agree with you personally, horse needs more fibre, could you suggest they feed soaked hay and more of it? Stress can bring on laminitis, esp if the horse is reaching for grass outside of the paddock, people think its only triggered by grass. Then theres the risk of colic, gut not
moving enough causing other problems long term. Could you discreetly speak to the Yard owner, suggest strip grazing on another paddock, use of a muzzle etc?
 
Our new boy had a laminitic episode a couple of years before we bought him. I have never has any dealings with laminitis so am being quite cautious myself. He has feeds am and pm which consist of Alfa A Lite and Lo Cal Balancer. He gets daily turnout on good grazing for around 4 hours and then soaked hay, 10lbs at night and a small net during the day when he is in. His weight is fine and I am just keeping a close eye til I know him better.
My understanding is that laminitis is not just about weight but also what the horse is fed, I stand to be corrected. Horses aren't designed to spend periods of time eating nothing.
 
I can only add my own personal experience here - I have a welsh A that was very overweight 6 weeks ago and has since been on about 1/4 acre shared with a minature shetland 24/7 with only a cup of Blue Chip Lami Light once a day.

He has over the past two weeks come 3rd (class of 22) and 1st in best conditioned classes. He looks amazing.

Personally, I would not interfere - if the pony does not look underweight then leave well alone but encourage feeding of a conditioner as I have above to ensure mins and vits are going in.

Oh, and yes he is starving all the time but judging by the poo picking I have to do they are certainly finding something to eat in there!
 
I have suggested that they move him on to a paddock which the other horses have just come off, so is already grazed right down but not as bare as he is on, but the owner doesnt want to do this.

BonneMaman - well done on your weight loss!! However this horse was already lean when he arrived and as a permanent way of management am still not convinced he is getting enough fibre.

It is hard being a YO as the horse is on DIY livery so am very reluctant to interfere, but am really concerned for him and feel that I cannot turn a blind eye to what I see as a potential welfare issue.....
 
Feeding rate sounds not unreasonable to me, perhaps should have another slice of hay at the opposite end of the day. A 1 acre bare paddock with only one pony on should have a tiny bit of grass growth, can you see his ribs? as you say, you have not dealt with a laminitic, it is a heartbreaking disease, I can understand the owners being cautious. You could suggest a grazing muzzle perhaps so he can go out with the others?
 
Could you try a bit of reverse psychology on the horse's owners? Say that you appreciate that he has had laminitis in the past and you understand their obvious concern that it doesn't recur, but that his paddock is very bare, and he has started to lean over the fencing, which is why you have had to electrify it. So, maybe they could give him a bit more soaked hay / some hi-fibre chaff that wouldn't affect his laminitis, as you don't want him to hurt himself trying to reach over the fence.
 
Have you explained that stress can also induce a laminitic episode?

My mare was obese a few years ago and ended up on a "starvation diet" - that didn't actually involve starving her, she got well-soaked hay ad-lib but not a blade of grass. Same with the obese mare I cared for at almost the same time, who did end up laminitic - she had ad-lib soaked hay and she looked like a greyhound for months (odd on a feathered cob). Can you explain (tactfully!) that starvation makes them hold on to their weight, and that (as mentioned above) weight isn't the only thing that triggers laminitis?

Of course, I completely understand if you feel you can't - a YO's place is a difficult one, I think. The yard I used to be at (DIY) has a very strong-willed YO. If she sees something she doesn't like, she tells the owner. If the owner does not see sense, they are not welcome. Don't get me wrong, I think she is an incredibly sensible and knowledgeable horsewoman with a vast amount of common sense, and is also open-minded to new approaches. She just won't stand for stupidity, and she would probably tell your livery exactly what they should do. If they didn't see sense, she'd get her vet to have a word with them the next time she was there.

I'm not saying that's the way forward in your situation, necessarily. I don't envy you. I suppose, if the horse isn't actually being neglected, you can't do much. Unless you tell them that their current turnout area cannot be used unless they are feeding ad-lib hay?
 
When my pony had laminitis my vet told me to go down to 1% of her bodyweight of food per day which was to include forage and feed (blue chip lami light, only 400g though). That was 2 sections of hay when she was on box rest and when she was on the bare paddock she got nothing at all.
Some horses can't be muzzled - mine can't as however you put it on she will get it off however much damage she has to do to her face, eating grass is the priority. She has the scars to prove it and I would never risk turning her out on a field with grass with only a muzzle for protection.
On the advice of my vet I keep my horse on a low condition score of 2 - 2.5 out of 5 so you can see the shadow of her ribs although she is lovely and shiny.
I guess I can see where your liveries are coming from. Maybe if they soak their hay they can give their horse a bit more although even on a bare looking paddock I think my pony is getting plenty to eat, she's just having to work really hard for it! What about suggesting the hay ration is split so the horse gets some at both ends of the day? Is he working at all?
 
Thanks unbalanced - yes he is in light work, hacked approx 3 x a week.

Like yours he won't wear a muzzle so think the way forward would be to suggest hay at either end of the day rather than just once in the morning, and soaking it if they are concerned about weight gain.....

If the owner does not agree I don't see what else I can do other than monitor his weight myself and if he loses any more, tackle the situation head on then!
 
Before you start wading in making a fuss are you absolutely sure that the fibre the horse is recieving is less than 1.5%BW. Are you talking 1 flap from a small bale of hay - do they weigh it? Do they come up twice when you're not there? Are they also giving a bucket feed of hifi or something? I appreciate that you are worried but my horse is on restricted hay and grazing and if someone from the yard kept sticking their nose in I would get very annoyed. Personally I think concerns are best routed through the YO and just keep an eye from a distance - if someone suddenly started hanging around my horse talking about grazing muzzles, soaking hay and forage levels I'd just ignore them because I know why I'm doing what I'm doing.
 
Walrus - I am the Yard Owner!!

And I do know that the hay is not weighed, and the size of the bale/slice given as the client feeds when I do mine, and as am on site am also aware that it does not get anything else during the day......

Hope that has cleared things up for you!!
 
Sidney said:
Walrus - I am the Yard Owner!!

And I do know that the hay is not weighed, and the size of the bale/slice given as the client feeds when I do mine, and as am on site am also aware that it does not get anything else during the day......

Hope that has cleared things up for you!!
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Ah, sorry! Didn't realise that bit - doh! Must read better. In that case you can probably speak more on a welfare concern with the owner - but it's a tricky situation. Hope you resolve it before the welfare of the horse is compromised too much. :)
 
My Welsh D and my part native are on a very grazed down small paddock (it looks bald but its not really), get 2 - 3 unsoaked slices of hay per day, big scoops of Hi Fi Lite and Formula 4 Feet, they're in light to medium work and they're fine. My Welsh D looks too skinny to some people, but he's not ribby, he's just fit and not fat. They always act like they're the hungriest things in the world also.

Maybe encourage them to give him more hay and split his feeding into twice a day, but its hard to advise without seeing the condition of the horse.
 
ok a difficult situation as its obvious you care and want to do right thingh but hard to comment not seeing horse - is the horse not being work is this why there is muscle loss? umm regarding loss of weight my daughter has loaned a pony who to many is lean but when weigh tape by vet is perfect weight.As she said we are so used to seeing over weight horses( and no critisim here as mine is due to circimstances is) when we see a good in weight lean animal and think "underweight" - its a battle with my mare to keep lami at bay - out for 8 -10 hours a day but in at night with a sprinkle ( and its a sprinkle) of happy hoof and a slice of hay( and yes i understand the importance of fibre). in winter she as same but 2 small slices( ok 3 if theres snow on ground) and no rugs at all and trust me that mare survives on nothing and told by vet she sparkles health . Ok I think a sit down and explain kindly your concerns that they want to do the right thing with horse and you want to work together . if coat is dull def a good all round supplement maybe needed. can you suggest to weigh tape the horse with them ? They sound like they so want to do right by thier horse and youre heart is so in right place - hope it gets sorted hun xxxx
 
Sidney-Is the horse thin? Can you see its ribs? What shape is its bottom? (ii.e if you lay a hand on its bottom with fingers on the spine, arm towards yourself perpendicular to the spine, is your hand flat, or at an angle?)
 
I would not be a YO even if they paid £100/week!!! I look at others horses and would not keep mine as others do, but they know their horse better than anyone else. There are as many ways to look after a horse as there are horses - everyone has their own system and ways.
Also I find one person's opinion of a bare paddock is anothers idea of reasonable grazing. A "bare" paddock to me is one where there is just dirt - no green at all. If there is green, the grass will be growing and the pony will be eating the shoots off as they grow.
AND one persons opinion of a lean horse is anothers idea of a fit horse.
If these DIYers have had the horse six years and it has not had another bout of lami, they must be doing the right thing. Or if they have just bought it, perhaps the previous owners said this is the best way to keep the lami at bay.
My vet once said about our loaned laminitic pony who had lost weight (whilst we weren't looking after it), that it is the ponies on the thin side who are the healthiest - better to be a bit under than over.
As someone said earlier, we are so used to looking at obese horses and ponies, and those ones winning best condition in latter years' shows, that when we see one that is just right, it seems underweight in comparison.
Perhaps you could find a reference chart on condition scoring and compare this pony to it. You might find it is losing weight because it was over weight before and now it is actually a perfect score, you did say it isn't an RSPCA case yet.
I have a Cushings/Metabolic TB who is so sensitive to sugars, I have to muzzle him if he goes out in the field and I feed soaked hay and the lowest sugar feed possible. He looks fit as a fiddle, complemented by my vet on his condition at age 23 but I am certain there are a few at my yard that think I am cruel and mad for treating him the way I do - because he looks ok to them - but he looks so well *because of* the way I look after him.
I would just monitor the situation from a distance and try to trust them. If the pony does deteriorate and you are certain it is very underweight, that is the time to do something about it. Hope this helps,
 
The yard am I at, is a bit quirky in that the owner makes the rules to ensure horses are looked after properly, no abuse of horses is allowed (first rule in his contract), feeds to be left out every morning, and he turns them out, as long as weather is suitable, he will also make up haynets if the owners don't do it, this prevents excessive waste as I have seen on other DIY yards.
You are well within your rights (as a YO you have a legal "duty of care") and if you are sufficiently concerned, you should explain to the horse owner or keeper (is she the owner or a loaner) about this duty of care, and ask for a vet to come in an make an independant assessment, this keeps you in the right legally, I am not sure about which vet or who pays for the bill, perhaps other YOs on here could advise.
You have the ultimate sanction of giving them notice.
One point, are you sure it is on an acre of grass, cos no matter how bare, I would expect there would be enough for one native pony especially if also getting hay. It should not be losing weight though.
I suggest you have a look at the World Horse Welfare site, I think you could ask one of their officers for advice, and a visit if you want, they will normally act in complete confidence.
This idea of BHS idea of 2.5 percent of bodyweight is a maximum, I was under the impression that it varied from 1.5 to 2.5, with 2% being the normal; regardless of that fact, we don't know the exact weight so it is a matter of feeding for desired condition, I would rather see or feel a few ribs but always want to see the spine and the bum reasonably covered.
My horse 14.3hh is 465 kilos so one percent is 4.7 kilos of food,,,,,,, no way ,,,,, in winter he gets double that for maintenance only ie just over nine kilos, which is 15 pounds of haylage and 3 to 4 pounds of fibre based hard feed, he would actually starve on half of that.
 
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My Section A is prone to laminitis. She has had it once and one suspected occasion since I've owned her, both caused by her being let out into a field of decent grass for over 8 hours. I've owned her for nine years now. During that time I've found she can either be allowed to put a little weight on so you can't see her ribs but she must then be worked hard for at least an hour 7 days a week ie not a dawdling hack but an hour's trotting whilst driven OR she must be kept on sufficiently little food that her ribs are visible. Even in that state she still has a crest. Her new loaner has decided that as horses aren't meant to have their ribs showing she wasn't being fed enough and has upped the grass considerably. She has just finished 10 days box rest as a result of suspected laminitis and is now being treated like an invalid instead of a pony who is perfectly healthy and happy when strictly managed.

If the owners have had this pony since it's last attack and this method of management has kept him laminitis-free for 6 years then may I suggest that they probably know what they are doing and whilst he may be thinner than you'd like to see at least he is not suffering the dreadful pain of laminitis.

My pony's loaners felt they were being kind and were partly pressured by comments from others on her weight. As a result they are without a pony to ride for over a month, she now won't be fit for the work they wanted to do this summer and most importantly the pony has been put through unnecessary pain and then distressed by being on box rest and now only allowed out of her box for an hour a day. Don't rush in until you have found out a lot more of how the pony has been managed so far.
 
Firstly, is the acre actually dirt or can you see green stuff? Secondly, please do not interfere by giving the horse more food. If you are really concerned then I would tell the owners that you are concerned about the horse's feeding habits and you understand that it has had lami, which you do not have any experience with and you would like them to explain their feeding regime and confirm if the vets are happy with that also.

One of my lads had lami, he is a seriously good doer and was fat, my vet advised me on % of what to feed - the 2.5% rule is only really for poor doers or horses in hard work - fitness etc. With the lami etc I was told he was allowed on 1%. So in a 24 hour period he was allowed 20lbs of 12/24 hour soaked hay and literally a handful of chaff with his meds and balancer twice a day. He now shares a bare 1.6 acre field with his friend, quarter of it is mud and the rest is 'green' but there is barely any grass in there, the field has been grazed all winter also. My horses are 16.3 and 16.2. The one with lami still comes in overnight and has a small haynet that probably goes within an hour or so, even triple netted with double netted haynets and he still scoffs it.

So an acre for one horse/pony even if it is poor grazing is enough I think to be supplemented as they have.
 
Thanks Lochpearl and do not worry, I wouldn't feed it without their permission!!!

The paddock is mainly bare earth, but with some green (but mainly weeds!) in patches.

The hay given is 1 slice from a small bale. The horse weighs 410kg on the weigh tape (owner weighed him last week), so if the 1% rule is applied that would mean it needs 4 kg to maintain a safe forage level if prone to laminitus? I personally doubt that a slice of hay and 1/2 scoop chaff adds up to this, but as somone else rightly said, if the horse has been managed like this for the last 6 yrs, the formula is obvioulsy working!

The concerns I have are more for his internal workings and the psychological stress of not being able to forage, but suppose these are outweighed by the risks from laminitus....

Thanks for everyones input and will just observe how he goes through the rest of the summer - it is a learning curve for me too as never had to deal with a laminitus prone horse so appreciate I may being over precious too!
 
Sidney said:
Ha ha Amy May - I AM the yard owner (and female too boot!!!!!!)
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In that case - step in and take action. They either feed it properly or they leave. Simples.

Because if they carry on at the rate they are, there won't be a pony at the end of the summer. And if that happens you too will be liable for prosecution........
 
Sorry I am a bit confused - why would I be liable for prosecution!?

In my diy contract it clearly states that the 'clients' are responsible for the welfare of their own horse - these concerns are only being voiced as I actually care about the horses on my yard, rather than seeing them just as a money making scheme.

The question posted was a genuine one - although I have had horses all my life and have run the yard now for 3 yrs, I have not experienced a laminitic, and wanted others views on how these horses should be managed. If you have had time to read the post fully, you have will seen varying opinions from other members, some saying the feed given is adequate and some not. I have not yet sided with either opinion as every horse is an individual and should be managed as such, which is why I am going to keep a close eye on his weight and of course will 'step in' if necessary.
 
Apologies if I'm repeating someone else here, but what about finding a helpful article (preferably one which says feed ad lib soaked hay!) and showing it to them in a "I saw this and thought of you" kind of way?

ETA: unfortuately contract or no contract, the YO/YM has just as much duty of care to the horse as the owner - by law.
 
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