Condition/Topline Help Please *pics*

3Beasties

3Beasties

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How can I improve my horses Topline? It's something I have always struggled with but now it is starting to get me down as I feel bad for expecting him to do the work I want him to do.

He is currently worked about 4 times a week, mainly schooling round the stubble fields at the moment (due to the school being too wet) but once the school dries out we'll be back to schooling/ lunging a couple of times a week. Out hacking we do lots of hill work in trot and canter.

Over winter we will hopefully have weekly lessons, have a couple of days hunting and do a bit of SJ.

He is currently only fed once a day (will go up to two feeds once he comes home in a few weeks), he gets a scoop of Top Spec Alfa A, 3/4 of a scoop of fast fibre and half a scoop of power and performance. He's out 24/7.

He is a 15 year old TB.

These piccys were taken over the last week or so -

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Any advice on feeding/exercise etc. would be much appreciated!

Maltesers for anyone who can help!
 
i had an underweight tb and i fed baileys no.4 topline with some chaff, also went onto feed grass nuts as recommended to me by someone at my yard, also fed hayledge instead of hay
 
Hi he is a gorgeous looking boy, you must have a lot of fun with him.

Re getting some topline on him you need to make sure he is working across his back which means making sure he is really working from behind and also long and low. Do you have any hills around you whilst out hacking if so would get him to really walk up them but using his behind so rather than dragging himself up by his shoulders make sure he is pushing himself up through his hindquarters. I also like to long rein or lunge with a pessoa, but again making sure that your boy works long and low so would only use on the 2 lowest settings.

Once he has got a bit more strength behind would start working him over poles and then raised poles too to get his hindquarters engaged. Plus do lots of transitions but make sure he is sitting on his bum for the downward transitions and pushing off from his hindquarters on the upwards ones.

Re feeding I found Baileys Outshine really helped in adding general condition, I often find best thing to do is speak to various feed companies nutrition lines as they are very helpful and then take a look at all the info they have given and choose which you think would suit best. Have to say I like Outshine for its high oil content but also non heating qualities which I think are very important.

I hope some of these exercises help and that what I have written makes sense. :)
 
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Ive used Alfa-A oil, its seems to be more effective than normal Alfa-A, while hes out could you try 16+ i know hes only 15 but it can work well, its quite high energy but you obviously hes going to be doing alot over the winter. And once hes in defo some good lunging with a perssoa/side rein or bugee making sure hes engaging his back end. I would say the his back is slightly dipped due to his age which isnt unusal espeacailly in TBs.
 
I don't think he is underweight as such, just poorly muscled.
I don't want to stand your feeding regime on it's head, but one thing you could do is increase the alfa a, at least twice as much.
He needs protein to build muscle and appropriate work, so lots of long and low and power walking. Maybe a bit of lunging in a chambon (or a pessoa if you really must).
 
Sorry should have said, his feed will be upped/changed for the Winter, I am currently just using up the last of his 'Summer' feed while changing him onto his Winter feed. In a few weeks he'll start coming in at night and will then be fed 2/3 times a day, he'll have ad-lib hay and on top of his regular feed he will also have a big bucket of Alfa A to munch his way though during the night.

Exercise wise we do quite a lot of hill work, I have only just got him to the stage where he will go long and low and actually use his back end so hopefully a bit more time will help with that, I'll have to do more walking with him as I must admit I tend to do a lot of trotting (his best pace!).

I'll be lunging him in a Passoa but he isn't great in it, he really hates being restricted so I have to be very careful about lunging him and how tight I have the passoa, he takes a good 20 minutes of lunging before he will start to relax :eek:


Zoelouisem - 16+ might be worth a try, is it likely to sent him loopy though?

Martlin - I agree it's not so much the weight that's the problem, just the lack of muscle :(

Just for comparison this was him at the end of last Winter/Beginning of Spring - This is what I want to avoid him getting like again :(

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To add my two penn'th :D transitions, transitions, transitions :D My mare had a ewe neck and was dragging herself along from the front, even though she is the most forward going creature in the world. Five years on, we now have front shoes that last twice as long as the back ones, through hard work and I must admit the usage of a myler pelham, which helps stop all that energy zipping out the front
 
If I were you I would steer clear of 16+ if you are worried about sending him daft; it sent my little old man around the bend, something to do with the oat feed in it?! I have haylage also to does the same thing, its high in energy, and getting a decent bale of hay is more beneficial.

One thing to consider is the amount you are feeding him, whilst it is all well and good to feed him lots throughout the day, he will get to the point were he has all the nutrients he needs and the extra/waste will come out the other end(either way!) so is wasting your money!

I have found blue chip original to be great, it is more expensive, but does really work, and also helps keep your horse that little bit more sane. You can easily get away with fedding a chaff, some form of cool/pasture mix with some blue chip once or twice a day with ad lib hay (feed obviously according to his size and weight!).

Another random thing i have found,is by using hay nets you are developing the 'wrong' neck muscles, horses are designed to eat from the ground so if you are fedding your hay from a rack or net, perhaps try off the floor or in a low feeder of some sort (stop them stomping all over it!).

Just like Let slip said, the type of work is really important, you don't just want to tuck his head in and make him work in an 'outline', a proper outline goes right from the top of his ears to the top of tail, he needs to be working all the way through with his back legs pushing forwards!

He looks lovely as he is, but worth trying a few things if you feel you want more topline - some horses have it naturally and others need loads of work!

Hopefully some of this helps and makes sense!
 
Hi, Does he lunge well ie obedient and compliant? If not, I would work him in his normal tack and develop the use of side reins and make sure he was accepting of these before I introduced the Pessoa. The Pessoa (or I use the John Whitaker training aid which is cheaper) is brilliant for building topline quickly but the horse needs to be working correctly for this to work. Could you book a lesson to get your horse established on the lunge and help you introduce the Pessoa? I think your horse weight wise looks very well, he just hasn't developed the right muscles yet!
 
martlin said:
I would really, really recommend the chambon over a pessoa, it does what it says on the tin - encourages to stretch without restricting, sounds like your boy would be happier working in it.
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Just looked at them on Ebay and will order one tomorrow. I take it they can just be used with a roller?

Probably a daft question but can they be ridden in?

I've not come across them before so is there anything I need to know?

I'm still not sure he'll like it but I'm happy to give it a try.
 
I like chambons for lunging but defo no riding. You can ride in a de gogue which is similar. He sounds like he does the same as Jim who hates to be restricted from the word go, he just hasnt got the muscle. I use draw reins to lunge him in, and a roller, but I only tighten them once he ha got his back moving.
 
16+ could make him loopy or it might suit him, its hard to say but it can be very effective on older horses, its one of those trial and error feeds to start in small quantites maybe while hes still out, it contains what alot of older horses start lacking in, but most people tend to feed because the horse is over 16 not because they need it.

I highly recomend the alfa-a oil we had a poor doer and the normal alfa-a didnt do as much for him as the alfa- a oil, and the good thing is its not more expensive (well it wasnt when i was feeding it).

Definatly do some lunging, if he isnt happy in the perssoa i wouldnt use it as it will have the oppisite effect if hes fighting, theres lots of other things to try for lunging maybe a bungee, or as somebody else suggested a chambon, or maybe a harbridge there good for workinglong and low, the key with yours i think is to really get his back end working, doing mainly trot but its the quailityof the trot as long as his back end is inder him. If youve just got him working correctky that will really help.

Ps love the stars in is clip!!
 
Lily - Hay is always fed from a haybar :)

Working 'properly' is definitely a work in progress, we are getting there but still far from perfect, I'm hoping the lessons will really help with that :o :o


Kirsty - He lunges quite well but has been know to panic in the past and go over backwards, I hate lunging him for that reason so am always very cautious about it :eek:

BB - Will have a look at Copra, not heard of it before :D

Sydney - Calm and condition is what he usually has over winter :)
 
Ditto what everyone else has said re working him. And defo get him on a chambon, rather than a pessoa. And hill work, long and low.

On a feed aspect, (feed from the floor, both hard feed and hay) I'd suggest you up his feed considerably (I know you say it will go up shortly). I do think your chap looks like he needs a tad more weight, and he'll need the calories to do the muscle building work. My old boy came to me in a terrible state at the start of the summer. His coat was poor, he had no muscle and was underweight. He is fed, twice a day:

1.5 scoops Alpha A lite (with added corn oil as he can't have the soya oil in Alpha A oil)
1 scoop Build Up nuts & Spillers Senior conditioning mix together
1/4 scoop speedibeet
300g Ultimate Balancer

He has Pink Powder and joint formula and biotin in his breakfast.

He also has lunch of 1 scoop readygrass or Alpha A lite with fast fibre and / or mulch of grass nuts.

He is in at night, with turnout if weather is fair for about 6 hrs a day. Ad lib hay when in.

What I should say is that he is nearly 30. His condition has improved no end. These pics are just to show you what conditioning (but not fizzing) feeds can do - this horse is retired so we can't do much about top line etc, but he has added muscle in some parts.

I'd definitely give Build up nuts a go (I find them better all round than any other brand of the same type of feed) and I haven't found them to be fizzy. Spillers conditioning mix (not the senior one) is also good and not fizzy IME.

I took on a 7 yr old hurdler at the same time, and he is on the same diet and working very well, muscling up and hasn't blown his brains!

You obviously care about him, and I've seen your previous posts - I do like him! Hope you get it sorted, good luck x

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Ahhh, the de gogue is what I was thinking off :D

Will maybe give 16+ a whirl, if it sends him potty I know an ancient Donkey who I'm sure would appreciate it! :D Charlie does need a bit more energy so it may be just what he needs :)
 
TBH I think it's all good people saying about exercises that will give better top line but I think your boy needs the right food. Have similar problems with my horse over the winter, my mum has been looking after him previously and he's always been out at grass all summer with not much else and come in for winter with a HUGE belly but no top line. I've got him in livery now and he's been in at night/out in the day and getting 2 decent feeds a day (3/4 scoop Baileys #4, scoop chop, 1/2 scoop sugarbeat) he's still quite fat but with more top line/a bit less belly and I'm hoping he's going to look better when he starts hunting.

It's hard with some horses - good luck!
 
De Gogue does not have the same action as chambon, it encourages ''outline'' not only getting them to lower head but also to tuck their nose in - it is quite restrictive. Although it is said to be suitable for riding, I wouldn't, it would be much safer to ride in draw reins - at least you can release the rein if something goes to pot, the de gogue is fixed, so if they for example go up and lose balance, you're cooked.
 
Angelbones - Thankyou :)

All hay and feed is fed from the floor :) Unfortunately he can only be fed once a day at the moment due to being on a yard 20 miles from home (I can only get up there once a day :( ), he will be coming home in a few weeks which is when I can start bringing him in at night and giving him some TLC (I can't wait to get him home :D :D ).

Your boy looks FANTASTIC for his age :eek: :eek: :D Massive well done!
 
Hi!
My mare is a TB 17 and is looking the best she has ever looked in the 5 years we have had her. I spent 6 months last year using a pessoa twice a week and building her up really gradually as she was very weak behind.she was having 3 small meals a day her middle meal being grass pellets and condition cubes.plenty of fibre and a good slosh of veg oil in every feed.

I fed her a 16+ mix this season and it sent her nuts, shes pretty mad at the best of times but she definately didnt need the extra va va voom they put in it.

As another suggestion, could try if you can, to leave him with hair over his back when you clip him this year it makes a huge difference, as they keep warmer without having to burn off all the expensive feed your feeding them. This played a huge part in keeping the topline on my mare.
 
millitiger said:
looking at those pictures it looks like he has pretty bad muscle atrophy behind his shoulder- have you had his saddle checked recently?
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I completely agree with this, he also has no or very little muscle along his back, which to me says he does not work through his back at all, you will not get any topline without him working through I'm afraid,

I would first have his back/saddle and teeth checked. I assume his worming is up to date.

I would also change his feed to a higher calorific one, change the Fast Fibre for Speedibeet and change the Alfa to Alfa A oil, you are not feeding enough of the P&P to give him all his vits/mins and he is not getting the full ratio of the probiotic either. You need to up his ration considerably and I would feed double the Alfa and double the amount of Speedibeet (instead of the Fast Fibre), either give him the full ration of P&P or perhaps use a balancer instead. On top of this I would feed ad lib hay or haylage.

Feed alone will not build muscle, he does need to work correctly and I would work him long and low both on the lunge and ridden. If you do not want to use a pessoa, I would use side reins or a chambon. I would not use draw reins to be honest, unless you use them properly you will get a false outline which will not help him through his back.
 
When I bought my last horse (TB) he had a topline similar to yours. I got out a chiropractor and a physio who gave him a course of treatments and his back became much softer. Are the muscles over his back 'spongey' at all? Because they should be and atm they look tight and as others have mentioned there is significant atrophy behind the shoulders. If you get his back looked at and saddle, with enough food going in he should start to develop a better overall shape even without exercise.

Speak to physio about best exercises for this horse but I was advised to do inhand raised pole work - pretty high - at walk and really get him using himself. He honestly looked like a different horse in a matter of months x
 
I agree with you on the De gogoue, I just mentioned it as it is suggested it is the Chambon for riding in. Personally I use draw reins to luge and ride in but thats coz I own them already and I am cheap. lol

I would recommend Protexin over Pink powder. Its a much better product, has a lot more probiotic stuff in it and the prebiotic to keep the little critters alive, and its cheaper.

I fed Jim when he was hat rack (you saw the pics)

Alfa A oil
Cool Stance Copra
Top Spec Leisure time balancer.

went from Skinny to Fat in about 4 weeks. :D :D
 
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