Confirmation effecting movement?

[ktj1891]

So got me wondering, my guy is currently under investigation with toe drag. Were not sure whether its lack of muscle, pain, just him or could his confirmation possibly be impacting it?

Please see photos below I have posted for opinions on his confirmation, I know he will have far from perfect conformation but I am no means an expert and would appreciate your views.

If the photos are really not good confo pics I am can aim to take some more over weekend.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Fairynuff]

From looking at the photos I get the feeling he is stiff in his kidney area. Its just a sensation Im getting so quote me on it

 

[Suziq77]

I can't see any photos of his confirmation where's the church?

In all seriousness, please could you outline what investigations you have done so far as that might help with comments from people on here.

He has a very nice face, I hope you solve the toe drag.

 

[Queenbee]

How old is he? He seems really bum high

 

[YasandCrystal]

It could be lots of things - I am assuming it's his right hind judging by the hoof. It could be a hock problem, locking stifle, a sacro illiac soreness/injury, arthritic changes in the fetlock. He is turning that foot out, but it could just be a momentary odd stance.

It will be interesting to hear what the vet says.

 

[ktj1891]

I can't see any photos of his confirmation where's the church?

In all seriousness, please could you outline what investigations you have done so far as that might help with comments from people on here.

He has a very nice face, I hope you solve the toe drag.

where's the church? Sorry confused <

He's basically just had time off atm as hes lost a lot of weight, so just been building his weight and condition. I have now been given the go ahead to retun to full work and try and build as much hindquarter muscle as advised by vet as she thinks the drag may be stemming from lack of muscle and therefore support behind.

Hes currently in 24/7 ad-lib dry haylage, 3 x pure condition feed with linseed milk thistle and glucosamine.

Hes got physio out weekly atm and both vet and physio believe it may possible be stemming from his sacriolliac joint.

Conformation advice would be greatly appreciated. pics are there.

 

[Suziq77]

where's the church? Sorry confused <

He's basically just had time off atm as hes lost a lot of weight, so just been building his weight and condition. I have now been given the go ahead to retun to full work and try and build as much hindquarter muscle as advised by vet as she thinks the drag may be stemming from lack of muscle and therefore support behind.

Hes currently in 24/7 ad-lib dry haylage, 3 x pure condition feed with linseed milk thistle and glucosamine.

Hes got physio out weekly atm and both vet and physio believe it may possible be stemming from his sacriolliac joint.

Conformation advice would be greatly appreciated. pics are there.

Sorry, the church was a bad joke related to the spelling of confirmation/conformation.

I'm certainly no better qualified than your vet and physio to comment on potential causes for toe drag. In your shoes I would be doing as they suggest and working on building muscle, keeping a close eye on his movement and keeping a diary of what I saw/noted/felt each day. I'd also speak to my farrier about how his feet/shoes are wearing.

There are others more experienced, enlightened and more qualified than I am who I am sure will comment. Best of luck

 

[ktj1891]

It could be lots of things - I am assuming it's his right hind judging by the hoof. It could be a hock problem, locking stifle, a sacro illiac soreness/injury, arthritic changes in the fetlock. He is turning that foot out, but it could just be a momentary odd stance.

It will be interesting to hear what the vet says.

Interesting. He's just turned 8 for poster above, just I would say hes slightly bum high but that pic is on unlevel ground.

Vet/physio do not believe it so be hocks as on flexion test he had very good mobility and physio found no friction within the joint. Both have suggested possibly sacroilliac joint. Once he has returned to full work and if toe drag is no better we will pop him on a bute trial to see if it improves.

Interestly normally getting after him increasing/decreasing speed of trot on road makes no difference. But from lack of work/ turnout last couple times I have hacked down road hes been fresh and I have gotten after him a little he seems to not toe drag.

But in school, lunge, horsewalker, leading and hacking normally he does. Very odd seems he doesnt do it when hes eager but hes doesnt stay in that frame of mind long and soon returns to dragging.

 

[Wagtail]

Toe drag is often caused by problems in the hock such as arthritis. He is slightly sickle hocked, which would put added strain onto the joint, and I am not sure, but does he have a curb on the left hock? He also has oddly shaped withers in that there is a marked change in the angle as it meets the back. I would not be at all surprised if his spinal processes were very close, if not toughing there. I agree with others, he is quite bum high. Is he an ex racer?

 

[YasandCrystal]

I have a little cob mare who recently (well late last summer) had an operation on a hind tendon. She had months of rehab - slowly building up her ridden work daily. She toe dragged behind for a bit and it worried me alot. I put it down to lack of muscle tone and maybe a little laziness and also her caution following the surgery.
She improved in time and no longer does it now some months on.

An SI injury or problem is hard to diagnose. My WB has chronic SI dyfunction - he just showed stuffy when ridden and he plaited behind. He was very reluctant to work from behind and then started bucking in the end to show his discomfort.

 

[ktj1891]

Toe drag is often caused by problems in the hock such as arthritis. He is slightly sickle hocked, which would put added strain onto the joint, and I am not sure, but does he have a curb on the left hock? He also has oddly shaped withers in that there is a marked change in the angle as it meets the back. I would not be at all surprised if his spinal processes were very close, if not toughing there. I agree with others, he is quite bum high. Is he an ex racer?

I am not ruling out hocks but vet and physio have not suggested this to be the problem. Kissing spine has been mentioned by vet but she ran her fingers along his spine and said he had good gapping between the lumbars.

If you could explain sickle hocked and curb on hock I can have a good look at him next and see if he does. Im not sure what you mean by his withers he does have a very prominent wither and not a great back in all honesty and yes hes an exracer retired just before turning 6 and I have had him since then.

Yes I also agree he is bum high but not to the degree in the photo it isn't the best and he doesnt ride bum high at all to me feels quite level.

Thank you for comments so far given me some things to observe.

 

[Tammytoo]

If you get the all clear from the vet then perhaps he could be being a little lazy due to lack of muscle as you say he doesn't do it when you get after him and make him use himself a bit more. Could you concentrate more on getting him to use his back end and build up his muscle? Or if he is getting bored doing schoolwork/horsewalker, perhaps some hill work to get him pushing through?

Lovely boy - I have a soft spot for tbs.

 

[Wagtail]

I am not ruling out hocks but vet and physio have not suggested this to be the problem. Kissing spine has been mentioned by vet but she ran her fingers along his spine and said he had good gapping between the lumbars.

If you could explain sickle hocked and curb on hock I can have a good look at him next and see if he does. Im not sure what you mean by his withers he does have a very prominent wither and not a great back in all honesty and yes hes an exracer retired just before turning 6 and I have had him since then.

Yes I also agree he is bum high but not to the degree in the photo it isn't the best and he doesnt ride bum high at all to me feels quite level.

Thank you for comments so far given me some things to observe.

Sickle hocked: When standing normally, a horse's hind cannon bones should be vertical to the ground rather than tucked under.

As in figure A. Figure C is sickle hocked.

 

[Wagtail]

This is a curb (usually they are more subtle than this).

 

[zoon]

I really don't like his feet - they look bullnosed behind and and the front feet are tiny with collapsed heels. Like they say, no foot no horse

 

[ktj1891]

If you get the all clear from the vet then perhaps he could be being a little lazy due to lack of muscle as you say he doesn't do it when you get after him and make him use himself a bit more. Could you concentrate more on getting him to use his back end and build up his muscle? Or if he is getting bored doing schoolwork/horsewalker, perhaps some hill work to get him pushing through?

Lovely boy - I have a soft spot for tbs.

He is a laid back TB however, I have really gotten after him in past and makes no different he is just fresh atm.

No hills = no hill work unfortunately.

Atm hes doing lots pole work, equiami and hacking.

 

[ktj1891]

Sickle hocked: When standing normally, a horse's hind cannon bones should be vertical to the ground rather than tucked under.

As in figure A. Figure C is sickle hocked.

Cant see any pictures?

 

[Wagtail]

Cant see any pictures?

That's strange. Try googling sickle hocked and click on 'images'. Your horse only has very slight sickle hocks, like many TBs do.

 

[ktj1891]

I really don't like his feet - they look bullnosed behind and and the front feet are tiny with collapsed heels. Like they say, no foot no horse

I have had these comments before and I changed to a highly recommended farrier in my area about 6 months ago. What can I do to change his feet I don't really wanna say anything to my farrier and come across as a know it all as I know nothing really about hoof structure. Would it be worth mentioning to my vet and seeing if she would call him. Although vet hasnt said anything regarding feet.

I am really not sure how to tackle this situation as I want him to have good feet or if anything better feet!

 

[ktj1891]

Okay guys thanks for posts so far. But can I just ask if anyone notices any big conformation faults that make be a big factor in his toe drag or would it be made up of all these little things?

 

[Calcyle]

I am not ruling out hocks but vet and physio have not suggested this to be the problem. Kissing spine has been mentioned by vet but she ran her fingers along his spine and said he had good gapping between the lumbars.

You can't diagnose (or rule out) kissing spines by palpation alone. Also Wagtail was suggesting the issue at his withers, which I do agree look a bit odd, which is quite a distance away from the lumbars. I'd also agree with him looking sickle hocked.

I presume the vet and physio have recommended transitions and polework?

 

[ktj1891]

You can't diagnose (or rule out) kissing spines by palpation alone. Also Wagtail was suggesting the issue at his withers, which I do agree look a bit odd, which is quite a distance away from the lumbars. I'd also agree with him looking sickle hocked.

I presume the vet and physio have recommended transitions and polework?

Sorry I am a bit think but I still don't understand the wither issue, I will look into sickle hocked.

Oh yes I agree it cannot be diagnosed by palpatation alone but I am going on what vet has said and they do not 'believe' it to be kissing spine. But if it every came to it he would probably have nerve blocks xrays of all areas suggested.

Yes vet and physio recommended lots of pole work hacking transistions etc. I even have some equine pilate exercises to do.

 

[Calcyle]

Sorry I am a bit think but I still don't understand the wither issue, I will look into sickle hocked.

Oh yes I agree it cannot be diagnosed by palpatation alone but I am going on what vet has said and they do not 'believe' it to be kissing spine. But if it every came to it he would probably have nerve blocks xrays of all areas suggested.

Yes vet and physio recommended lots of pole work hacking transistions etc. I even have some equine pilate exercises to do.

I don't mean to suggest that there is an issue with his withers, just that the shape of them is quite pronounced and can be indicative of an issue, if that makes sense?

 

[ktj1891]

I don't mean to suggest that there is an issue with his withers, just that the shape of them is quite pronounced and can be indicative of an issue, if that makes sense?

Oh okay yes understand more now. Yes he does have quite pronounced withers. Vet said shes not too fussed if he doesn't build tonnes of muscle around the wither as she said alot of horses with high withers dont tend to have much muscle in that area. However, its imperative that she wants him to build up him bum as its very weak!

 

[Doncella]

I really don't like his feet - they look bullnosed behind and and the front feet are tiny with collapsed heels. Like they say, no foot no horse

I'd agree with this, my first thought was "Oh dear look at those feet"

Shoes off, it will save you money in the long run and the shoes then will neither be masking nor creating problems.

Otherwise a nice looking horse, I'm a mug for bay TBs as well.

 

[ktj1891]

I'd agree with this, my first thought was "Oh dear look at those feet"

Shoes off, it will save you money in the long run and the shoes then will neither be masking nor creating problems.

Otherwise a nice looking horse, I'm a mug for bay TBs as well.

I don't think barefoot would be the best route for me or my guy I want to be out riding and I know how long barefoot horses can take to adjust and come right if they even come right.

I would rather keep him shod and improve the condition of his feet but do not know how to go about it?

 

[Luci07]

Ask your vet for a good farrier recommendation and if it is your current farrier, then have a conversation asking him to pay particular attention as there are issues you are working on. I don't agree with the suggestion of taking his shoes off at this time as feel you are trying to do a lot with him and adding sore feet won't help. If you feel it would help longer term than by all means do but as you are working to a programme with vet and physic I would be very wary of adding something else into the mix which you know might make him uncomfortable initially.

 

[Perissa]

Most vets work alongside remedial farriers. They may ask for xrays and I would strongly suggest doing this.

My horse had everything known to veterinary medicine (well may be a tiny exaggeration!) thrown at him to find the cause of his mystery odd gait. The vet even said that he was flummoxed bearing in mind he is one of the senior partners at Liphook Equine Hospital and that we xrayed them just to rule them out. My boy was found to have negative plane pedal bone rotation in both back feet. This was the last thing we were expecting to see as from the outside you would never have known. We blame his conformation as he has tiny feet for his height. He takes a size 00 shoe - normally on a 13.2 pony and he is 16hh. My farrier shoes him wide on the back with the shoes set under to support his heels as much as possible. Hey presto problem solved. But it takes vigilant shoeing.

 

[ktj1891]

Ask your vet for a good farrier recommendation and if it is your current farrier, then have a conversation asking him to pay particular attention as there are issues you are working on. I don't agree with the suggestion of taking his shoes off at this time as feel you are trying to do a lot with him and adding sore feet won't help. If you feel it would help longer term than by all means do but as you are working to a programme with vet and physic I would be very wary of adding something else into the mix which you know might make him uncomfortable initially.

Yes I agree with you, I just dont know how to go about it with farrier as I dont know what I am on about.- wouldnt really sound good saying bunch of people on forum told me his feet were crap if you understand where I am coming from.

Maybe ask vet what she thinks of his feet and if she would talk to farrier for me?
I would consider removing hinds if it would help.

 

[zoon]

Hind are generally easy to remove - most horses cope well. But those front feet won't improve without stimulation to the frog and heel to kick start some growth. Heart bars or similar will help temporarily if you want him shod in front.

I believe the bullnosing on the back is a sign of dietary issues though. Too much sugar is normally the cause