Confused about worming.

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Country Cob

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I have always used worm counts for my horses and then wormed with Equest paramox in early Jan (not keen on the paramox anymore) but a friend told me the other day that the counts don't pick up some of the really nasty worms? Another friend said that she worms regularly no matter what the egg counts say "just to be safe", but given the resistance issues that does not sound a good idea to me. So what do you lovely people do and what time of year do you do it? Been given so much conflicting advice I now feel thoroughly confused!
It doesn't help that the horses next door keep getting in with mine and their owner is not fussed about worming >:(
I thought maybe worm with the Equest now and then test for tapes in a few weeks?

Thank you!
 
I used pramox after first frost, but vet sent it a few weeks ago and said if no frost by mid Nov to reworm in 13 weeks

I wormed today, got bored of waiting

But as far as I know worm counts don't put pick everything up
 
Thanks equi. I am really not keen on pumping any chemicals into my horses at all but seeing as tests unreliable and the other horses getting in with mine I feel I should. I know Eqvalan Duo has both Ivermectin and Praziquantel in but as you said more dangerous but better than the Equest Paramox I hear?. Is there a right or wrong time to worm?
 
Country Cob said:
Thanks equi. I am really not keen on pumping any chemicals into my horses at all but seeing as tests unreliable and the other horses getting in with mine I feel I should. I know Eqvalan Duo has both Ivermectin and Praziquantel in but as you said more dangerous but better than the Equest Paramox I hear?. Is there a right or wrong time to worm?
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can you explain why you think the tests are unreliable? what is that based on? most vets are now recommending tests rather than just worming for the sake of it.
As for horses getting in with yours does it matter? I thought a small percentage of horses carried a high worm burden and therefore needed worming after testing and the rest had a low count, whoever they belonged to, and didn't need worming.

I believe the right time to worm is when they need it after a positive FEC count or a positive tape worm test and the wrong time is all the rest of the year except for end Dec when you worm with moxidectin for encysted.
 
Thanks paddy555, that makes sense. Lots of people told me tests didn't pick up encysted redworm and that by only counting I was putting my horses at risk. I am dead against worming for the sake of it, but was worried esp as one of the horses getting in with mine does have worm problem that was not dealt with, otherwise wouldn't bother me. The local vets weren't very helpful when asked for advice, just tried to sell me lots of wormer. =/
 
My equine studies teacher told me her friend did a phd on it or something and said the test is unreliable because the horse may not have tape worm in the correct place or something. I can't remember the specifics but as It's a very new test so there is just work needed to be done.
 
Country Cob said:
Thanks paddy555, that makes sense. Lots of people told me tests didn't pick up encysted redworm and that by only counting I was putting my horses at risk. I am dead against worming for the sake of it, but was worried esp as one of the horses getting in with mine does have worm problem that was not dealt with, otherwise wouldn't bother me. The local vets weren't very helpful when asked for advice, just tried to sell me lots of wormer. =/
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I think twice a year in autumn and spring for tape and encysted if you don't want to overworm.
 
equi said:
My equine studies teacher told me her friend did a phd on it or something and said the test is unreliable because the horse may not have tape worm in the correct place or something. I can't remember the specifics but as It's a very new test so there is just work needed to be done.
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I really don't want to appear rude but in the case of worming or not worming I think more definite info than "someone said something" is needed. If there is evidence that the tapeworm test is unreliable I would like to know specifically what it is.

Country Cob, if your vets are not very helpful you could try looking on Westgate labs site and follow their suggested worming program. That's what I do and it seems to work pretty well. When you start to build up several test results you get a pattern of which horse has a problem and which is OK. Lots of free info on that site.
 
equi said:
My equine studies teacher told me her friend did a phd on it or something and said the test is unreliable because the horse may not have tape worm in the correct place or something. I can't remember the specifics but as It's a very new test so there is just work needed to be done.
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How can she have done her PHD on a test that has only been available in the last year? I think she's talking out of her bottom!
 
Hi OP. Take a look.at this page which should help you clarify things

http://www.westgatelabs.co.uk/info-zone/worming-programme.htm

These guys are specialists and will give you facts rather than hearsay.I have found them really helpful with advise etc.

I use their worm counts quarterly and saliva test six monthly and use a broad spectrum wormer in winter.

I am in a position where I can keep my paddock clean and rest half my paddock. If you have potentially unwormed horses getting in with yours I would make sure you keep your paddock poo picked daily just in case, or maybe invest in a section of electric fencing and a small energiser to prevent it happening.

Hope that helps
 
We use Westgate labs and do droppings and saliva test and follow recommended dosing based on the results.

Last test it was interesting to note that our cob who has been in an accident and had had a course of antibiotics had a very high worm burden whilst the mare had virtually none.

I'm a big believer in only giving animals (and humans) the medication they actually need.
 
Another vote for faecal egg counts, saliva tests (for tapeworm) and only administering wormers if necessary (if the egg count is high enough to warrant it, and in winter for encysted redworm). I'm also a huge advocate for keeping paddocks clean and rotating between winter and summer.

It's simple really - over-worming is like over-subscribing antibiotics - the bugs/parasites become resistant rendering the medication useless as and when it's really required.

Have a chat with Westgate Labs - they're best placed to give you sound advice. Oh, and if you are administering wormers, make sure you don't always use ones with the same active ingredients - that will also help stave off resistance. This is why keeping a diligent record of which wormers were administered when is very important.

P
 
I think part of the problem is that sometimes people want really fixed rules and to be told do x on this date. However there are so many variables and you do need to adapt. Aspects like your grazing, how many horses are there? Do you poo pick? Is your land rested and/or rotated and grazed with a different species? Are you on a yard with a high turnover of horses? Age and other factors that might predispose a horse to have worms.

When studies are done on horse populations 20% of horses were found to carry 80% of worms. I know people with stable herds who know which of their horses are prone to have a positive worm count so even with all other factors the same, some horses still require different people. One of mine has been on several different yards with very different land management and worming policies but whatever I do he always has clear worm counts. Other horses in the same situation might not.

Countrycob Eqvalen Duo is not the same as Pramox (praziquantel and moxidectin) I so you can't use it instead f you are concerned about too many chemicals at once look at the individual ingredients and do encysted redworm and tapeworm separately.

Moxidectin will do Encysted redworm you can get that as Equest. The only other thing that might do that is fenbendazole in the 5 day course. However there is resistance in many areas.

For Tapeworm you can use praziquantel (equitape) or a double dose of pyrantel (pyratape p)

Last thing to bear in mind is that recommendations like winter or after first frost are going to vary year by year. This year we have had a mild autumn and that will affect when you worm.
 
Thank goodness for all the educated voices of reason contributing to this thread.

Equi I think it very unlikely that your tutor had anything to do with the development of the tapeworm saliva test. I have personally visited the lab and the lovely people who developed this well validated test. They are excellent scientists and it is unhelpful to plant the seeds of doubt with comments based on nothing but hearsay. Maybe your person was referring to the old elisa test based on a blood sample, which is rather different? Please use the tapeworm test with confidence and stop dosing unnecessarily.

Thank you for all the recommendations for Westgate. Please if you are unsure on any worming point then ring up and chat about it or ask on the fb page. We don't pretend to know everything but we do our best to keep up to date, read up the papers and current thinking and give all our customers time. Sometimes I think vets are busy with such a huge and varied caseload that they can be a bit dismissive of worming problems.
 
equi said:
Yes, she did the phd on it as in she helped during the making of it i believe. I will ask in class!
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I think Dr Austen would be pretty horrified to discover that someone who worked with her on the development of the test is making disparaging remarks about it! I spent a lot of time talking to her about it for a series of articles about it, and got no sense that there were fundamental problems with the test
 
I use Intelligent Worming. They risk assess based on FEC, management etc etc, they send a pot when a poo sample is required and tell you when to worm with what based on the results and level of risk.
 
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