confused by feeds- copra or linseed, costs v's mainstream feeds

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twodonkies

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I have a large (17hh) wb who needs more muscle development in particular over this quarters. He has improved since I have got him, and I know that to build muscle he needs exercise rather than thinking feed will just resolve problem. I currently feed him copra ( 1 stubbs scoop, 1kg), balancer, alalfa oil (2 stubbs scoops) and oats (2 stubb scoops, 2kg) split into two feeds (cannot do three a day as in work). I was nervous giving him oats, but he seems ok on them so far! I am wary of feeding him main stream foods as they contain fillers etc, and when you actually look at the ingredients I think that I could make up the feeds myself for a fraction of the price tbh. The issue I have is because of the volume of his feed he is not eating much haylage during the night as I think he is full. So I want to cut down on the volume, so thinking of switching to micronized linseed instead of copra - having read the information, you only feed 200g a day and it can be dry so less volume (but would soak all feed), as opposed to copra which requires soaking and bulks up too much. I found the same when feeding my elderly mare sugarbeet- the soaking makes the feeds huge.
I am at a stage where I may switch to mainstream feeds, having looked at Baileys the conditioning feeds are nearly £15 a sack, and feeding 2-3kg a day, will last less than a week- and contain oats and barley. Versus a sack of oats for less than £8.
What are people's thoughts? I may ring the feed helplines, but they will tell me to buy their products lol!
Horse looks well, weights around 650kg, ad lib haylage night, grass in field at moment, but will put hay out during day once goes. Worked 5/5 times a week, schooling, hacking, poles, working elementary level dressage. TIA
 
i got great advice on here ages ago and switched to the bluegrass oat balancer. Had a chat with the rep and worked out feeding programme for all the horses. I had chatted with all brand eps, but the bluegrass one just fitted best as i have a good few different types of horses and needed more flexibility. So i just use their oat balancer, oats and beetpulp. I add their flaxplus supplement as well. I'm delighted with how they looked at how much cash it saved me. He broke down exactly what amount of forage/oats/balancer and beetpulp i needed and exactly what nutrients/vitamins they contained. It gives me the freedom to alter ratios of stuff depending on their work level and condition. It works out at 6.50 per 25kg overall, so much cheaper than the feed i had been doing. My horse does medium level eventing, so would be medium work probably.
 
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I have the problem that mine wont eat big feeds, so yes micronized linseed would be a good choice, I found with copra mine wouldn't even eat the minimum they recommended as it swelled so much, the linseed would work better for you if you are using the copra as more of a supplement
 
How long have you had him? As you say he looks well on his current feed. You could look to replace the copra with linsee, I feed my lad 2 mugs a day in winter, if you compare the feed values to copra I think it is better hence the smaller quantities. You could also look at Keyflow key plus, also more nutrient dense so no need to feed as much.
 
Ok, let's do the math! You are currently feeding:
2kg oats (at 14MJ/kg) =28MJ
1kg copra (at 15M/kg)=15MJ
800g alfa oil (at 12.5MJ/kg)=10MJ
That's a grand total of 53MJ!
If you want to increase/keep the calorie content of your bucket feed but reduce the size, you need to swap out with something that has more calories per kg. Linseed has 20MJ/kg, but if you only feed 200g, that would only provide 4MJ (vs. the 15MJ you're providing with a kilo of copra). So you'd have to feed 750g to get the same energy as from the kilo of copra. Baileys conditioning cubes have only 13.5MJ/kg, so are not providing any more energy than copra/oats at the same weight. You could try adding some oil (most concentrated form of calories), but horses are not really designed to deal with high fat diets, so there's a limit on how much you can feed, and it needs to be introduced slowly.

I have to say, that amount of bucket feed sounds enormous. Just for reference, according to the NRC (nutrient requiremets for horses), your average 650kg horse in light work should need around 109MJ/day. Unless your horse has very different requirements for some reason, you're providing close to half the daily calories in a bucket. If the other half came from hay/haylage with an average energy content (around 9MJ/kg dry matter), that would only amount to around 6kg (dry), which is just one large hay net.
I would probably aim to provide much more calories from forage. Since your horse's body condition is ok at the moment, I might try to feed ad lib forage (weighed out) for a week (no bucket feed) to see how much he will eat. If he's not keen on eating forage even without bucket feed to fill him up, I'd try and figure out why (maybe prefers different hay/haylage, or issues with teeth?). In the long run, you'll be much better off money-wise if you can get more calories into him with forage, and feed a reduced bucket feed. Even if you end up paying slightly more for better quality forage, it'll still be cheaper than the equivalent amount of bagged feed. It'll also be better for the horse's digestion. The really high energy feeds invariably have to go up in either starch or oil content to get those high calories, neither of which are particularly gut-friendly in large amounts.
 
supsup said:
Ok, let's do the math! You are currently feeding:
2kg oats (at 14MJ/kg) =28MJ
1kg copra (at 15M/kg)=15MJ
800g alfa oil (at 12.5MJ/kg)=10MJ
That's a grand total of 53MJ!
If you want to increase/keep the calorie content of your bucket feed but reduce the size, you need to swap out with something that has more calories per kg. Linseed has 20MJ/kg, but if you only feed 200g, that would only provide 4MJ (vs. the 15MJ you're providing with a kilo of copra). So you'd have to feed 750g to get the same energy as from the kilo of copra. Baileys conditioning cubes have only 13.5MJ/kg, so are not providing any more energy than copra/oats at the same weight. You could try adding some oil (most concentrated form of calories), but horses are not really designed to deal with high fat diets, so there's a limit on how much you can feed, and it needs to be introduced slowly.

I have to say, that amount of bucket feed sounds enormous. Just for reference, according to the NRC (nutrient requiremets for horses), your average 650kg horse in light work should need around 109MJ/day. Unless your horse has very different requirements for some reason, you're providing close to half the daily calories in a bucket. If the other half came from hay/haylage with an average energy content (around 9MJ/kg dry matter), that would only amount to around 6kg (dry), which is just one large hay net.
I would probably aim to provide much more calories from forage. Since your horse's body condition is ok at the moment, I might try to feed ad lib forage (weighed out) for a week (no bucket feed) to see how much he will eat. If he's not keen on eating forage even without bucket feed to fill him up, I'd try and figure out why (maybe prefers different hay/haylage, or issues with teeth?). In the long run, you'll be much better off money-wise if you can get more calories into him with forage, and feed a reduced bucket feed. Even if you end up paying slightly more for better quality forage, it'll still be cheaper than the equivalent amount of bagged feed. It'll also be better for the horse's digestion. The really high energy feeds invariably have to go up in either starch or oil content to get those high calories, neither of which are particularly gut-friendly in large amounts.
Click to expand...

What a fab reply, agree with it all
 
to build muscle, you want to be sure you're adding good quality protein to help him get the most out of what I'm assuming are lesser "winter workouts". I would probably increase the alfalfa (slowly) until it's a 2:1 ratio BY WEIGHT with the oats, and top with something like ForagePlus Working Young Horse winter balancer- it's got extra lysine, methionine and a good rounded balance of vits/mins to make sure he is metabolizing everything to the best of his ability. I feed this to my horse and even though she wasn't working for 6 weeks (and let's be honest, I haven't jumped her since May of this year) and only getting half the feed she normally does, everyone complements how well she has maintained muscle.

Also- turning them out on a hillside with salt/water/hay at opposite ends of the field work wonders for "independent training" :)
 
Hi thanks for all the advice. I have switched him to linseed- but completely agree the best thing is adlib forage - the most natural way. I did wonder whether he liked the haylage, and now the bucket feed has been reduced, I bought some horse haylage (the stuff in bags) to experiment and see whether he ate more of this than the haylage I have already. He has two big haynets a night, but only really ever eats one (around 1/2 from eat net). I gave him one net of horse haylage and one net of normal haylage- he preferred the horse haylage stuff and ate all this net, and only a some of normal haylage- so I am trying to source better quality haylage - not easy, lol!! Once I can get better quality haylage, I will look at reducing hard feed. Like I say he is well in himself- fit, hacking twice per week, and then school work, mix of lunge/poles etc around 3-4 times per week. His muscle has improved since I got him a year ago - he was very weak. My vet has advised, that he will probably always be a bit angular - its his make up, but I would like him to have a bigger bum! I am lucky as my hacking always involves hill work, good for muscle building. I will have to keep on tweaking his feed and see if I can improve him, plus also continue with muscle building work
 
ohmissbrittany said:
to build muscle, you want to be sure you're adding good quality protein to help him get the most out of what I'm assuming are lesser "winter workouts". I would probably increase the alfalfa (slowly) until it's a 2:1 ratio BY WEIGHT with the oats, and top with something like ForagePlus Working Young Horse winter balancer- it's got extra lysine, methionine and a good rounded balance of vits/mins to make sure he is metabolizing everything to the best of his ability. I feed this to my horse and even though she wasn't working for 6 weeks (and let's be honest, I haven't jumped her since May of this year) and only getting half the feed she normally does, everyone complements how well she has maintained muscle.

Also- turning them out on a hillside with salt/water/hay at opposite ends of the field work wonders for "independent training" :)
Click to expand...

This is great advice - protein builds muscles.

it depends what you are after - if you want to put on condition (fat) feed oils.

The ONLY way to build muscle is exercise.

Equally the only true way to increase a horses energy is exercise not feed :) some feeds will add fizz ... but that isnt true energy ..

i always equate it to human training ... you could struggle up a flight of stairs one day - you have a choice ... have a mars bar which would help you out the next time but not help your muscles - or you keep doing the stairs until your so fit its not an issue ...

mars bar anyone?
 
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