Consent-based training

[lifewithflash]

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask this lol but where could I learn about consent-based horse training? I already do clicker training but would love to learn more about giving him a choice on want he wants and how to read signs he wants/doesn't want to do.

 

[stangs]

Some resources at the bottom of this blog: https://www.thewillingequine.com/post/consent-in-horse-training
And this is a good video introducing start buttons:

Reading signs that a horse doesn't want to do something is just reading their basic body language: do they move away or show avoidance behaviours, or do they actively engage and seek to continue the activity if you withdraw from them, and so on. E.g., use the 5 second rule - if you scratch him for 5 seconds and then stop, does he move closer to you, nudge you to continue, or does he show no interest in you and your hand (in which case he's 'not consenting' to more scratches).

If you're trying to get into cooperative care, then there's lots of games and exercises on YouTube to get you started (just search up cooperative care, starts button behaviours, etc). Watch everything and learn from anyone not just horse trainers: like most clicker work, cooperative care is considerably more advanced, with more resources available, in dog training and zoo animal training spaces, and it's not usually hard to adapt games for use with horses.

 

[Caol Ila]

I’d love to see how she does that with a horse like Fin who has a PhD in overshadowing. Hermosa is clicker trained for lots of things, but Fin was so good at overshadowing that it just felt f)))king pointless. Found other methods.

I find ‘consent based training’ a slightly dodgy concept (I knew one at a previous yard supposedly trained that way, and it was a health hazard to handle) because sometimes ‘no’ is the wrong answer for both your safety and their safety. Also, as herd animals, they can feel more secure when they know the rules and you are clear and consistent with telling them what you want them to do.

 

[lifewithflash]

Some resources at the bottom of this blog: https://www.thewillingequine.com/post/consent-in-horse-training
And this is a good video introducing start buttons:

Reading signs that a horse doesn't want to do something is just reading their basic body language: do they move away or show avoidance behaviours, or do they actively engage and seek to continue the activity if you withdraw from them, and so on. E.g., use the 5 second rule - if you scratch him for 5 seconds and then stop, does he move closer to you, nudge you to continue, or does he show no interest in you and your hand (in which case he's 'not consenting' to more scratches).

If you're trying to get into cooperative care, then there's lots of games and exercises on YouTube to get you started (just search up cooperative care, starts button behaviours, etc). Watch everything and learn from anyone not just horse trainers: like most clicker work, cooperative care is considerably more advanced, with more resources available, in dog training and zoo animal training spaces, and it's not usually hard to adapt games for use with horses.

Thank you!
I just want to ask, I taught him to park at the mounting block not to long ago and now he's at a point where he can be in an open space with grass and when I stand on the mounting block he will come straight over and wait for me to get on. would this mean he's saying yes? he's not backed or anything, just little sits.

 

[lifewithflash]

I find ‘consent based training’ a slightly dodgy concept (I knew one at a previous yard supposedly trained that way, and it was a health hazard to handle) because sometimes ‘no’ is the wrong answer for both your safety and their safety. Also, as herd animals, they can feel more secure when they know the rules and you are clear and consistent with telling them what you want them to do.

I'm not too sure what you mean? when would 'no' be the wrong answer and be a safety hazard?

 

[Caol Ila]

When I tell the horse to not run over me, not bog off whilst being led, not spin and run back to the barn in the middle of the road, not bite, etc. etc. etc. etc.

They don't get to 'consent' to not squashing me. They will get in deep sh1t if they do it.

 

[lifewithflash]

When I tell the horse to not run over me, not bog off whilst being led, not spin and run back to the barn in the middle of the road, not bite, etc. etc. etc. etc.

They don't get to 'consent' to not squashing me. They will get in deep sh1t if they do it.

Those are training issues. I'm talking about consent to being ridden, groomed, picking out feet, etc.

 

[Caol Ila]

Those are training issues. I'm talking about consent to being ridden, groomed, picking out feet, etc.

And picking up its feet in a safe manner isn't?

 

[lifewithflash]

And picking up its feet in a safe manner isn't?

It is a training issue and it used to be a big issue for my horse before I trained him to pick his feet up safely (with clicker training). I then added in consent-based training (or at least something like it) to let him know what's to happen next and let him say 'yes' or 'no' to it. This also really helped with him picking his feet up safely.

 

[lifewithflash]

also I just want to add to this,

When I tell the horse to not run over me, not bog off whilst being led, not spin and run back to the barn in the middle of the road, not bite, etc. etc. etc. etc.

They don't get to 'consent' to not squashing me. They will get in deep sh1t if they do it.

first off, how are u telling the horse not to do these? making them do what YOU want by hitting them, or kicking them, etc?

'not spin and run back to the barn in the middle of the road' I believe the horse would have said no wayyy before it ran off but no one listened so it saw no other choice.

'not bite' a horse shows signs through body language before biting, if u get bitten its probably ur fault. My horse has bitten me before and it was cos I wasn't paying attention to him, I never once blamed him and was actually proud of how he responded to it given the situation we were in.

if ur horse actually liked what u were doing with it, it wouldn't respond in such a way.

its like when people say 'a horse wouldn't do it, if it didn't want to' then show a horse bucking and rearing and just kicking or whipping them to go forward n saying they are being 'naughty'. They say no all the time, it just gets put down to them being 'naughty'.

 

[VictoriaSponge]

also I just want to add to this,

first off, how are u telling the horse not to do these? making them do what YOU want by hitting them, or kicking them, etc?

'not spin and run back to the barn in the middle of the road' I believe the horse would have said no wayyy before it ran off but no one listened so it saw no other choice.

'not bite' a horse shows signs through body language before biting, if u get bitten its probably ur fault. My horse has bitten me before and it was cos I wasn't paying attention to him, I never once blamed him and was actually proud of how he responded to it given the situation we were in.

if ur horse actually liked what u were doing with it, it wouldn't respond in such a way.

its like when people say 'a horse wouldn't do it, if it didn't want to' then show a horse bucking and rearing and just kicking or whipping them to go forward n saying they are being 'naughty'. They say no all the time, it just gets put down to them being 'naughty'.

But, horses can be naughty. Of course one has to rule out any king of pain/emotional discomfort/ etc etc first, but as @Caol Ila says, we should not be asking them for “consent” for ours or their safety.

A horse isn’t always going to like what you’re doing with it, regardless of whether it’s for its own benefit or not. I doubt many horses enjoy flu vaccines, but that’s no excuse for them to bite the vet, they must learn that sometimes no does mean no, whether that’s what they want or not.

 

[FFAQ]

I have two clients who do an excellent job of consent based hoof handling, and these are the 2 yards I feel safest at.
There are a few places though who think they're doing positive reinforcement training, but are using very high value food rewards which appears to be more arousing for the horse, and then of course the horse's attention is not really on what I'm doing and that can be a very dangerous thing. The other thing that really needs to be done well when training for the farrier/trimmer with food reinforcement, is being aware of how feeding position affects the horse's posture. If you're rewarding from too far away, the horse will lean forward for the treat and the hoof care professional (HCP) suddenly gets leaned on, or the horse falls off the stand. If rewards are coming from the side the same is true.

So, speaking as an HCP, I love co-operative care and use it for my own horses, but video yourself doing it before you test it out on the farrier/trimmer so you can asses how your rewards are affecting the positionof the horse. Make sure you practice with the limbs extended forward on a log or something to simulate hoof stand work. And be prepared that if the horse says no you need to book another appointment quickly and pay the full amount each time, as your HCP will not be prepared to give their time and fuel for free if your horse says no! The horses I trim that have been trained that way have only said no maybe twice each in 10 years. My own arthritic cob says no about 25% of the time, or withdraws consent after 2 feet, but it doesn't matter because I see him every day and I don't need to pay myself to keep trying! The pros for me are that it reduces wear and tear on my body because he's much happier to be trimmed in this manner and I'm not being pulled about by a horse that's snatching his leg back/striking out/leaning/fidgety, etc.

 

[stangs]

(Can you see what I meant, OP, when I advised against going to horse people for advice on this sort of stuff...)

For the uninitiated: consent-based training doesn't mean that you don't dare go near your horse without their say so. But hey if people only want to ride their horse when the horse has opted in, then that's their prerogative. It's a lifestyle choice, that's it.

Cooperative care is a very useful tool, especially in horses who have a history of handling being very aversive. It does not mean that you tell the vet that you won't be vaccinating your horse today because they haven't consented.

What it means is that you build up a bank of good memories around a certain behaviour (the consent element being especially important for animals who've been given no say before and have consequently gotten very defensive of their bodies), so that when the vet comes to vaccinate, the horse doesn't feel the need to say no.

The other great thing about cooperative care is that, in situations where you have to do something to them, the animal becomes more willing to be manhandled because they have that new history of having been given autonomy. So it actually makes the defensive/aggressive horse easier to do things with.

Sure there are issues that come up when people do it wrong - typically rushing the animal through the stages while thinking they're consenting because they're still snatching the food - but it's not going to harm a horse done right. And it absolutely does not mean that your horse doesn't have structure or can't be touched without their say so.

I just want to ask, I taught him to park at the mounting block not to long ago and now he's at a point where he can be in an open space with grass and when I stand on the mounting block he will come straight over and wait for me to get on. would this mean he's saying yes? he's not backed or anything, just little sits.

Sounds like it to me but you're the one seeing the horse. (Is he happy to stay in the behaviour or does he get quite angsty wanting the reinforcer to arrive to get the experience over and done with, etc.)

 

[maya2008]

I'm going to avoid the discussion about whether the concept is a good idea and attempt to add something aimed at the original question.

If you want to know whether your horse wants to do something, and are asking how you could find out, then you lack some of the basic skills of horsemanship and I absolutely, 110% support you gaining that knowledge. It's something absolutely everyone who interacts with horses should gain. Once, that person was me. I don't know you, but I was sort of where you are aged about 22, first owned horse, lots of free time and wanting to connect with the first horse that had ever been mine. A ton of natural horsemanship books later, and I can say that the most valuable thing I did, was sit on the field gate and watch the herd. I saw how they interacted with each other, the more subtle, easy to miss body language. I played with Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and other ideas, put the bits that worked for me together and combined that with a ton of solo hacking. By the end of that first summer spent together, it was no longer guesswork, ever. I knew what she wanted, and while sometimes the answer has to be, 'sorry but that's not an option', I do believe in acknowledging their feelings. Sometimes it was, 'I know we'd both like to go for a gallop in that field but it's not allowed.' Sometimes it was, 'I know you don't want this medicine in your eye but you need it'. I've never lost that knowledge, and it's been invaluable in the decades since. Two nights ago my little herd very definitely told me they didn't like the new plan of haylage on the floor and wanted their haynets back in the barn thank you very much. We complied, happy ponies. I could have said no, they knew that, but they also know they can ask and I'll at least think about it. It builds trust.

 

[lifewithflash]

But, horses can be naughty. Of course one has to rule out any king of pain/emotional discomfort/ etc etc first, but as @Caol Ila says, we should not be asking them for “consent” for ours or their safety.

A horse isn’t always going to like what you’re doing with it, regardless of whether it’s for its own benefit or not. I doubt many horses enjoy flu vaccines, but that’s no excuse for them to bite the vet, they must learn that sometimes no does mean no, whether that’s what they want or not

What classes as naughty tho? and a horse could have all sorts of test done but STILL be in pain somewhere, so when do you say one behaviour is from pain and the other is from naughtiness.

I think preparing a horse for the vet beforehand, in a safe manner rather than just chucking them in the deep end and expecting them to be ok in a situation they don't know or had a bad experience with before. is a way to avoid them bitting the vet.

 

[JFTDWS]

It’s like anything isn’t it - done badly, it will produce a difficult and potentially dangerous horse, done well, it won’t. The trouble is people who lack the timing, tact and skill for training don’t usually know it.

I like the idea of giving the horse a choice to be ridden, giving horses a say in what and how they work. I try to do that - certainly more than I used to.

Preparing horses for new circumstances is always a good idea, and should be done kindly and taking the time the horse needs to accept the situation - regardless of the doctrine behind your training method.

There are some circumstances where I expect to override my horses’ opinions - in an emergency, or when there are aversive stimuli that can’t be removed and something needs to happen now. I need them to trust me in those situations, but I’m also absolutely happy to “make” something happen if it’s the safest and best outcome.

The example of horse trying to run back to the barn is an excellent one. Why is it trying to run back to the barn? Does it hate its job? Pain, saddle fit, unhappy alone? Or did a very scary thing just jump out in front of it? Is that trigger stacking or is it actually just one really big trigger? Not all situations are as simple as reading the behaviour earlier. With horses things can escalate very quickly.

And if things do escalate unpredictably (or even predictably, in hindsight), I need that horse to accept that spinning and playing silly devils on the road isn’t the answer, so far as is possible. And in that sense, CI absolutely has a point. Consistent boundaries.

Or a more trivial example - a bouncy, enthusiastic horse out hacking, we decide to canter, by mutual agreement. Horse wants to gallop. I know the ground / length of track / conditions aren’t suitable. I expect to be able to say no, and override the horse, for both our safety.

Saying that “if your horse actually liked what you were doing with it, it wouldn’t respond that way” is quite an emotive response. Life is always more complicated than that.

 

[Hackback]

This is quite interesting. I've never heard of consent based training before and when I first started reading I thought it sounded ridiculous. My youngster used to say 'no' to everything - very clearly - and if I'd waited for his consent he'd never have had his feet even picked out. But I guess the fact that he does now offer his feet means that he is consenting, and I haven't done that by physically bullying him - couldn't win in that situation anyway.

So now I'm reading it that everything the horse does while being handled is done by consent, but how does that differ from just 'training'? My own horse demonstrated very clearly that he feels more secure with someone else in charge. When my trainer started working with us he changed from an angry bolshy little horse to a much more relaxed and cooperative one. And my trainer doesn't stand in the school with him and ask if he wants to do something. The trainer asks the horse to do something and rewards the try. If the horse says no (in his rather dramatic fashion of trying to run over the trainer) he gets sent backwards, hard. No anger or physical contact is involved but it's very much a case of 'you do not push me around'.

This method has made such a huge difference to my relationship with the horse and quite frankly also to my safety. I struggle to see how it could be improved but always willing to learn. I suspect it will come down to different methods suiting different horses.

 

[Caol Ila]

What it means is that you build up a bank of good memories around a certain behaviour (the consent element being especially important for animals who've been given no say before and have consequently gotten very defensive of their bodies), so that when the vet comes to vaccinate, the horse doesn't feel the need to say no.

Isn't that just good horsemanship? Is this just another way of putting horsemanship in a cute dress and giving it a different name?

We've been using the bank account analogy for a billion years. Every good experience you give a horse puts money in the bank. Every negative experience withdraws it. If you have enough money in the bank, the horse will hopefully be able to cope with the negative stuff (scary things on the trail, the vet, a trailer ride where you had to hit your brakes, you name it). This is not new.

"Consent" is a heavy word with a lot of connotations, which may or may not be helpful when it comes to animals who learn primarily via habituation and conditioning. Good trainers do a lot of this stuff anyway. I clicker trained my young horse into side-stepping into whatever object I'm using as a mounting block. She is incredibly good at this. Is that 'consent' for me to get on? Is she habituated to it and understands the process and the 'herd dynamic' and doesn't mind? Who knows? We can't know because we're not actually in their minds. But a skilled horseman will read a horse, and know what they want. They will build up things in increments and will back off or change tack if the horse is finding something overwhelming. That's horsemanship 101. At my old yard, we had big pens we could work in. Large enough for them too move around in and not feel trapped (like they would be in a stable), but not so big that they could end up miles away. I did a lot of work with Hermosa loose in these. Getting her used to rugs, saddle pads, fly spray, etc when she had the option to move away from them. It was a way of doing that because of the set up at that yard. There are other ways. It wasn't cutting edge, though I suppose you could call it 'consent-based.' I'd call it 'habituation in a low-key way because she was not restrained.'

"Consent-based training" implies having no or very few boundaries. "He didn't feel like being caught today," which might be a valid lifestyle choice you can make if they are at your own property. Less so at a livery yard where there are rules about turnout times and staff have to handle them. However, after a quick Google, it just seems to be another way to dress up approaches to training that have been around for a very long time.

As an aside, in the video Stangs posted, the pony has a feed bucket in front of him. It's not particularly reactive to the rug, but it's focused on the feed. I know that movie. I can get rugs on Fin if I stick some pony nuts in front of him. The question is, what happens when it's not distracted by feed?

 

[Cloball]

I'm quite interested in this concept as obviously I think most people would like to think their horses want to do that we're asking. I my head though consent as a concept is quite tricky and I think we are in danger of over simplifimg complex behaviours and anthropomorphising. Consent between humans, informed, coerced, capacity etc. I will clarify what I mean in a bit when I'm less in danger of getting run over.

 

[JFTDWS]

I will clarify what I mean in a bit when I'm less in danger of getting run over.

I’m genuinely not sure if you’re posting while walking down a road, or if you’re describing a training method - deal with the danger in the moment and clarify (by training) to prevent if happening again.

It kind of works both ways!

 

[SEL]

There is a FB group. I'm a silent member, invited by a friend who practices it as far as she can.

The training interests me albeit I think food rewards can drive the behaviours we want so often we believe the horse has consented.

My horses have been with me a while and we're in our own yard so less distractions. I know full well when they don't want to do something (& will sometimes use food to persuade them otherwise) but I'm the adult here and often have to make decisions in their best interests. My big mare does not consent to a muzzle for instance

 

[Cloball]

entirely accidental but glad it works on another level. I was crossing an ambulance bay
I think Caol Ila has said another part of what I think is that how much is habituation and training and how much is 'consent'. A lot of training goes into consent in people, those that lack capacity etc. consent much be informed which I suppose for a horse is previous training and experience so in order to get to that point you do have to expose a horse to similar things. I think I'm going to tie myself in knots thinking about a horses capacity to consent now.
My experience with food rewards is that they can be so strong that they could be called coercion.

 

[paddy555]

.

I find ‘consent based training’ a slightly dodgy concept Also, as herd animals, they can feel more secure when they know the rules and you are clear and consistent with telling them what you want them to do.

I find it a strange description. Does it just mean "acceptance" based training ie you have trained the horse to accept a rug, saddle or whatever. Isn't that what most people have always done, moved up slowly in small increments at the speed that horse can accept. One may be saddled on day one, another may need several days to get there. What seems more important than asking consent is being able to read the horse.

I have always found horses need a safe, calm place and to know someone is in charge so they don't have to worry. That is surely what horsemen do when they read the horse.

Watch a stroppy 2yo walk all over its owner. Then replace the owner with an experienced confident trainer. The horse doesn't even try to walk over the trainer. All the time the horse is reading the handler. It is impressed, It knows it's place.

Same with the nappy horse who turns for home on a ride. (or spooks or does anything else) replace the rider with a confident trainer and the horse doesn't even try. As for if it is in pain the trainer has just watched it and has a pretty good idea if that is t he problem.



for picking up feet then confidence counts. I just feel if you go in with your clicker/food and the view if I run my had down to the knees etc I will reward you, then if I can touch your foot, then maybe tap it or whatever when all the time the handler is thinking about picking the foot up etc.

If you go in and just pick the foot up confidently and without any thought then the horse thinks nothing of it.

Isn't that just good horsemanship? Is this just another way of putting horsemanship in a cute dress and giving it a different name?

this

As an aside, in the video Stangs posted, the pony has a feed bucket in front of him. It's not particularly reactive to the rug, but it's focused on the feed. I know that movie. I can get rugs on Fin if I stick some pony nuts in front of him. The question is, what happens when it's not distracted by feed?

one look at that pony would have told me he was not to going to be a problem to put a rug on so get on with it. He was not going to run off whilst he still had food in the bucket. In fact keep filling the bucket up and you could probably saddle and back him at the same time.
I didn't really see the point of it. Ir was just a food orientated pony.

I'm not sure that consent training isn't just trying to reinvent the wheel but I love CI's description of the "cute dress"

 

[TheHairyOne]

If a horse really, really doesnt want to do something good luck with that.

I didnt really get that clicker training video (but i didnt watch all of it). I saw the pony getting bored of waiting for the treats, not one overwhelmed or not consenting. I stand to be corrected though! That being said I think we would agree horses shouldnt be trained with fear and violence, but with patience and boundaries and consistancy.

I am sure with the right person, the right horse and the right timing clicker training can work very well for some things. However, my only experience of this in the real world was a disaster where none of the above was right and the horse was a complete nightmare as was the owner. The horse actually improved a lot after the owner was (sadly but predictably) put out of action for a few weeks by said horse and he then recieved more conventional treatment. Not sure how that one ended up as she left the yard when she could as her poor horse had clearly been 'mistreated' whilst she wasnt there...

 

[TPO]

If a horse really, really doesnt want to do something good luck with that.

There are literally daily examples that contradict that statement.

Horses are made to do things that they "really don't want to" all the time.

Even at a basic care level no horse wants its teeth rasped, no horse want an abscess poked and prodded, [...] and at the other end of the spectrum no horse wants to be forced into a rolkur position, for example, but stronger equipment and learned helplessness are used.

Saying horses, or any animal, won't do what it doesn't want to gives an excuse to abusive practices because of that exact claim.

 

[VictoriaSponge]

What classes as naughty tho? and a horse could have all sorts of test done but STILL be in pain somewhere, so when do you say one behaviour is from pain and the other is from naughtiness.

I think preparing a horse for the vet beforehand, in a safe manner rather than just chucking them in the deep end and expecting them to be ok in a situation they don't know or had a bad experience with before. is a way to avoid them bitting the vet.

That is a question that there is no answer for. That’s where we rely on our own experience and the knowledge of others to best make a judgement that suits the needs of the individual horse. Sometimes we have to do things with horses that they are not comfortable with in order to help them. Yes, in an ideal world every horse has never had a bad experience and is pain free. But how often is this truly the case? I wouldn’t take my example too literally, rather as to make a case that sometimes, hopefully very rarely, horses will say no and we have to overrule. It goes without saying that is not the approach most of us would like to take, but on occasion it is necessary and that’s when not to get hung up on consent.

 

[lifewithflash]

There are literally daily examples that contradict that statement.

Horses are made to do things that they "really don't want to" all the time.

Even at a basic care level no horse wants its teeth rasped, no horse want an abscess poked and prodded, [...] and at the other end of the spectrum no horse wants to be forced into a rolkur position, for example, but stronger equipment and learned helplessness are used.

Saying horses, or any animal, won't do what it doesn't want to gives an excuse to abusive practices because of that exact claim.

this is what I was trying to say!

 

[lifewithflash]

As an aside, in the video Stangs posted, the pony has a feed bucket in front of him. It's not particularly reactive to the rug, but it's focused on the feed. I know that movie. I can get rugs on Fin if I stick some pony nuts in front of him. The question is, what happens when it's not distracted by feed?

one look at that pony would have told me he was not to going to be a problem to put a rug on so get on with it. He was not going to run off whilst he still had food in the bucket. In fact keep filling the bucket up and you could probably saddle and back him at the same time.
I didn't really see the point of it. Ir was just a food orientated pony.

The horse is not scared of the rug and she's not distracting it so she can get the rug on. She teaching it a start button for the rug (literally the name of the video).

I mean aren't horses designed to eat 16-18 hours a day and chewing can keep them relaxed and calm. isn't that what u want? why not let them eat and chew when doing something that could stress them out?

 

[SpeedyPony]

I find the concept a bit odd as well- I like the idea of taking the horses opinions into account, but as others have said, that's just horsemanship and being able to read an animal, not a new/different approach.
Personally, I'd rather my horses came across 'you must do as you're told' a handful of times in a low-stress/everyday environment, rather than having to have that argument in an emergency situation with a horse that is panicked/in pain.
For example, insisting that a horse must stand nicely when he would rather walk off, means that when he has to stand to have a wound washed and treated he's not suddenly coming across the concept of having his wishes over-ridden while also dealing with pain. Ideally you do prepare them for as much as you can, but things can and will go wrong in ways you can't predict and setting them up to know that occasionally what they want doesn't signify is helpful to them- just as we have to learn that lesson in our lives (I'm sure most of us don't want to deal with taxes, but we have to!).

 

[paddy555]

The horse is not scared of the rug and she's not distracting it so she can get the rug on. She teaching it a start button for the rug (literally the name of the video).

I mean aren't horses designed to eat 16-18 hours a day and chewing can keep them relaxed and calm. isn't that what u want? why not let them eat and chew when doing something that could stress them out?

I’m sorry but I am at a loss about the start button. I don’t see what she is trying to do if she is not trying to rug it. I’m not sure what the pony should be trying to understand. Is the video simply about clicker training.

Of course I want them to be calm and relaxed bu I wouldn’t use food to do it.
In many situations away from home food may not even be available. For many food is a weight issue problem.

If you are riding and say the horse sees something spooky are you going to use food then