Consent-based training

[lifewithflash]

I’m sorry but I am at a loss about the start button. I don’t see what she is trying to do if she is not trying to rug it. I’m not sure what the pony should be trying to understand. Is the video simply about clicker training.

Of course I want them to be calm and relaxed bu I wouldn’t use food to do it.
In many situations away from home food may not even be available. For many food is a weight issue problem.

If you are riding and say the horse sees something spooky are you going to use food then

she's teaching it so when it touches the rug that essentially means yes to being rugged, when it don't touch rug its saying no.

and for the riding, yes I would use food.

 

[JFTDWS]

I don’t think horses can, or should make the decision about whether they should be rugged. They haven’t seen the forecast, for one thing!

 

[Gloi]

What is a consent based way to get a greedy cob to walk past juicy grass without diving for it?

 

[Caol Ila]

I don’t think horses can, or should make the decision about whether they should be rugged. They haven’t seen the forecast, for one thing!

You clearly need to train your horses better. Mine can read Met Office forecasts on a smartphone.

 

[maya2008]

I think that:
1) Repackaging basic horsemanship, adding some 'new' ideas (that may or may not be a good idea/work well for each person) and selling it as the only way forward is MARKETING. Just bear that in mind.
2) Horses are not humans. They are prey animals whose very survival in their original habitat (in which they developed as a species) depended on sticking together and following the lead mare's orders.

Good horsemanship is just a result of humans figuring out how to use their natural instincts to our advantage, over the last however many centuries. Plenty of good horsemen, who charge a premium (rightly) for their services, follow no specific 'method' nor do they feel the need to have anything special that people must believe is the only way forward. Look at the past - the packaged big hype ideas that have fallen by the wayside. The discussions on here about this method or that.

The horse's nature is so very different from ours. Most of them are almost pre-programmed to follow someone else's lead from birth. To do what their dam says, just as all young mammals, then to listen to their older 'aunties' and the lead mare. Retribution is swift, manners are taught. These behaviours are hard wired as the best adaptation for survival as a species. I watched my whole herd become increasingly unsettled and anxious when my old lead mare aged and died. My little NF tried to do her job but it's just not in her nature to be the boss, and as the pressure made her anxious and snappy, no one else felt safe either. A few months later, I brought home a Welsh D mare. The next morning we found everyone else asleep with her watching over them, and from then on they were as happy and relaxed as they had been before. They NEEDED someone else to take charge. They didn't want to have to make their own decisions. Same happened this summer. I sent three of my youngsters off to be turned away in a bigger field. None of them, it turned out, wanted to be boss. The 3yo who took on the role (because no one else would as far as I could tell) found it incredibly stressful and that came out in her handling. She came home this autumn, caught sight of her aunties and was the happiest, most relieved pony ever. Instantly back to happy settled self. We use this tendency to follow as trainers, teach them that we're as good as their lead mare - we'll keep them safe, what we ask of them won't hurt them, and that it might even be fun. Then they follow us as they would a member of their herd. It helps them feel secure and safe, because that is how they are wired. It's handy too because once patterns of behaviour are established, they tend not to question the status quo unless there is good reason (e.g. something hurts). You don't need to give your horse a treat forever because you put the head collar on, or got on, or rugged them up for example. It might help to start with, but once they get used to it, it's a pattern of behaviour so they just do it.

As humans, we are predators. We strive to compete with others, to have our own 'space', to have agency over our own decisions. My horses really, truly, don't. Even herd boss Welsh D wants someone else to be in charge in the human world. She rules the field, but out and about she defers to me/her rider. Helps her feel safe, and is the sensible choice - she's in my world then, not hers.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I would never get my EMS/PPID ponies to consent to a sensible quantity of grass not to eat themselves to a painful death

 

[JFTDWS]

You clearly need to train your horses better. Mine can read Met Office forecasts on a smartphone.

Mine just sneak onto deliveroo and order pizza instead

 

[Fieldlife]

I'm not too sure what you mean? when would 'no' be the wrong answer and be a safety hazard?

I dont want the wormer / the wound cleaning / the eye drops etc.

Sometimes they have to be sympathetically persuaded to do things they dont like.

Different to forcing to have a very painful wound cleaned when should be sedated etc.

But sometimes like children horses would chose to say no, to necessary like evils e.g. vaccinations if given free choice.

 

[Cloball]

I don’t think horses can, or should make the decision about whether they should be rugged. They haven’t seen the forecast, for one thing!

Exactly you can't have informed consent with a horse as you can't explain to them that they may not want a rug now but they might at 4am when it's pouring with rain and 1 degree. Horses arguably don't have the capacity to consent either as they can't comprehend the consequences of their decisions. That's before we get to are they really consenting or is it just positive reinforcement/ coercion with food/ habituation.

 

[paddy555]

she's teaching it so when it touches the rug that essentially means yes to being rugged, when it don't touch rug its saying no.

and for the riding, yes I would use food.

no it doesn't mean it consents. it simply means it touches the rug in the hope of food amongst other things and if it doesn't then it doesn't really mean anything constructive. Its attention may simply be elsewhere or it may be bored.

I don't think horses want to have to make decisions. In the wild they would follow the leaders orders. They simply want to feel safe and calm. Domestically it is far easier to follow the owners decisions. I have taken in many mental loons. All spoilt by people and most not retrievable to ride. They didn't care about consent. All they cared about was wanting a safe place to be when someone, either horse or human, made the decision for them.

food for riding is IMHO dangerous. Consent is not an issue. . The horse HAS to do as it is asked. In a dangerous situation its opinions are irrelevant. It must do as it is told or someone be it the horse, rider, walkers, bikers, cars etc could be hurt. .

I think that:
1) Repackaging basic horsemanship, adding some 'new' ideas (that may or may not be a good idea/work well for each person) and selling it as the only way forward is MARKETING. Just bear that in mind.
2) Horses are not humans. They are prey animals whose very survival in their original habitat (in which they developed as a species) depended on sticking together and following the lead mare's orders.

Good horsemanship is just a result of humans figuring out how to use their natural instincts to our advantage, over the last however many centuries. Plenty of good horsemen, who charge a premium (rightly) for their services, follow no specific 'method' nor do they feel the need to have anything special that people must believe is the only way forward. Look at the past - the packaged big hype ideas that have fallen by the wayside. The discussions on here about this method or that.

The horse's nature is so very different from ours. Most of them are almost pre-programmed to follow someone else's lead from birth. To do what their dam says, just as all young mammals, then to listen to their older 'aunties' and the lead mare. Retribution is swift, manners are taught. These behaviours are hard wired as the best adaptation for survival as a species. I watched my whole herd become increasingly unsettled and anxious when my old lead mare aged and died. My little NF tried to do her job but it's just not in her nature to be the boss, and as the pressure made her anxious and snappy, no one else felt safe either. A few months later, I brought home a Welsh D mare. The next morning we found everyone else asleep with her watching over them, and from then on they were as happy and relaxed as they had been before. They NEEDED someone else to take charge. They didn't want to have to make their own decisions. Same happened this summer. I sent three of my youngsters off to be turned away in a bigger field. None of them, it turned out, wanted to be boss. The 3yo who took on the role (because no one else would as far as I could tell) found it incredibly stressful and that came out in her handling. She came home this autumn, caught sight of her aunties and was the happiest, most relieved pony ever. Instantly back to happy settled self. We use this tendency to follow as trainers, teach them that we're as good as their lead mare - we'll keep them safe, what we ask of them won't hurt them, and that it might even be fun. Then they follow us as they would a member of their herd. It helps them feel secure and safe, because that is how they are wired. It's handy too because once patterns of behaviour are established, they tend not to question the status quo unless there is good reason (e.g. something hurts). You don't need to give your horse a treat forever because you put the head collar on, or got on, or rugged them up for example. It might help to start with, but once they get used to it, it's a pattern of behaviour so they just do it.

As humans, we are predators. We strive to compete with others, to have our own 'space', to have agency over our own decisions. My horses really, truly, don't. Even herd boss Welsh D wants someone else to be in charge in the human world. She rules the field, but out and about she defers to me/her rider. Helps her feel safe, and is the sensible choice - she's in my world then, not hers.

this is a very good post LifewithFlash. It details situations very accurately. Which parts do you agree or disagree with?

 

[Caol Ila]

I think that:
1) Repackaging basic horsemanship, adding some 'new' ideas (that may or may not be a good idea/work well for each person) and selling it as the only way forward is MARKETING. Just bear that in mind.
2) Horses are not humans. They are prey animals whose very survival in their original habitat (in which they developed as a species) depended on sticking together and following the lead mare's orders.

Good horsemanship is just a result of humans figuring out how to use their natural instincts to our advantage, over the last however many centuries. Plenty of good horsemen, who charge a premium (rightly) for their services, follow no specific 'method' nor do they feel the need to have anything special that people must believe is the only way forward. Look at the past - the packaged big hype ideas that have fallen by the wayside. The discussions on here about this method or that.

The horse's nature is so very different from ours. Most of them are almost pre-programmed to follow someone else's lead from birth. To do what their dam says, just as all young mammals, then to listen to their older 'aunties' and the lead mare. Retribution is swift, manners are taught. These behaviours are hard wired as the best adaptation for survival as a species. I watched my whole herd become increasingly unsettled and anxious when my old lead mare aged and died. My little NF tried to do her job but it's just not in her nature to be the boss, and as the pressure made her anxious and snappy, no one else felt safe either. A few months later, I brought home a Welsh D mare. The next morning we found everyone else asleep with her watching over them, and from then on they were as happy and relaxed as they had been before. They NEEDED someone else to take charge. They didn't want to have to make their own decisions. Same happened this summer. I sent three of my youngsters off to be turned away in a bigger field. None of them, it turned out, wanted to be boss. The 3yo who took on the role (because no one else would as far as I could tell) found it incredibly stressful and that came out in her handling. She came home this autumn, caught sight of her aunties and was the happiest, most relieved pony ever. Instantly back to happy settled self. We use this tendency to follow as trainers, teach them that we're as good as their lead mare - we'll keep them safe, what we ask of them won't hurt them, and that it might even be fun. Then they follow us as they would a member of their herd. It helps them feel secure and safe, because that is how they are wired. It's handy too because once patterns of behaviour are established, they tend not to question the status quo unless there is good reason (e.g. something hurts). You don't need to give your horse a treat forever because you put the head collar on, or got on, or rugged them up for example. It might help to start with, but once they get used to it, it's a pattern of behaviour so they just do it.

As humans, we are predators. We strive to compete with others, to have our own 'space', to have agency over our own decisions. My horses really, truly, don't. Even herd boss Welsh D wants someone else to be in charge in the human world. She rules the field, but out and about she defers to me/her rider. Helps her feel safe, and is the sensible choice - she's in my world then, not hers.

Brilliant post. You said exactly what I was getting at, but better. Horses want security. “Consent” as we understand it in human terms doesn’t make a lot of sense in horse terms because they don’t perceive consequences in the way we do.

Mine just sneak onto deliveroo and order pizza instead

Hermosa is reading the Guardian and Fin is probably looking at porn.

 

[JFTDWS]

I won’t tell you how mine afford their Deliveroo habit.

*whispers* onlyfans

 

[Caol Ila]

no it doesn't mean it consents. it simply means it touches the rug in the hope of food amongst other things and if it doesn't then it doesn't really mean anything constructive. Its attention may simply be elsewhere or it may be bored.

You beat me to it. Aye, that kind of target training is dead easy and useful for some horses. I do it. That’s why I thought she was trying to train the pony to accept the rug. But it just means the horse has association touching/wearing the thing with getting a treat. You can see he’s completely focused on the food and not paying attention to the rug. I kind of stopped using these methods with my Highland because he’d be so buzzed and focused on the treat that he’d tune out the thing. So if he saw the thing without the treat overshadowing, it was like he’d never seen it before. My PRE is clicker trained to some extent because I could. She doesn’t get a massive adrenaline buzz from getting treats, so the food rewards are actually a useful way to communicate. Along with the usual pressure/release.

I won’t tell you how mine afford their Deliveroo habit.

*whispers* onlyfans

In fairness, Hermosa’s favourite thing is online shopping. She’s addicted to buying new clothes, and has somehow trained me to do all the hard work and spend all the money. I’m pretty sure I didn’t consent.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

no one consents to vets bills either...

 

[lifewithflash]

this is a very good post LifewithFlash. It details situations very accurately. Which parts do you agree or disagree with?

Sure I agree with most of it but MY horse like things to be his idea, in a sense. Meaning I want to make most things I do, he choice. he was REALLY bad with picking his feet up, until I let him touch the hoof pick before hand, now 9 times out of 10 he touches the hoof pick and shift his weight/ pick up his hoof.

But I want to say, I posted the original post for WHERE I can learn consent-based training because MY horse seems to prefer it. Whether thats just basic horsemanship, I don't really care lol. I've seen people use consent-based training and it looks and sounds interesting to me and what flash would like (just like most training methods) which is why I want to learn it.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I think what people are arguing though is you can't tell if it's the horse "consenting" for myriad reasons: are they just bored? Looking for a treat? Curious about the object that the human is using to understand consent? Do they even have a concept of consent?

But we can't ever answer those questions because - no matter the training philosophy we subscribe to- none of us speak horse.
They can consent or not to grooming by a herd mate because they speak the same language. They can't even consent to their owner using "consent based training" on them so surely that it itself goes against it's own principles. Let alone going for a ride or having their feet checked.
And these issues are before you even get into can one trust a horse's judgement?
Say they do not"consent" to picking their hoof up. But maybe they don't consent because it hurts because it's got an abscess. You can't poultice the abscess without picking the hoof up but how do you explain that to the horse? Which brings you back round to the language issue.

 

[JFTDWS]

In fairness, Hermosa’s favourite thing is online shopping. She’s addicted to buying new clothes, and has somehow trained me to do all the hard work and spend all the money. I’m pretty sure I didn’t consent.

You’re a better owner than me, picking up their tab. I’ve let mine go feral. Naked, tarting themselves out on OF and ordering take-out. I’m almost ashamed.

Is it high heels and mini-skirts she’s after, or oversized jumpers and wide-leg jeans?

 

[paddy555]

Sure I agree with most of it but MY horse like things to be his idea, in a sense. Meaning I want to make most things I do, he choice. he was REALLY bad with picking his feet up, until I let him touch the hoof pick before hand, now 9 times out of 10 he touches the hoof pick and shift his weight/ pick up his hoof.

But I want to say, I posted the original post for WHERE I can learn consent-based training because MY horse seems to prefer it. Whether thats just basic horsemanship, I don't really care lol. I've seen people use consent-based training and it looks and sounds interesting to me and what flash would like (just like most training methods) which is why I want to learn it.

the problem with this is that they can't be his idea as you are totally responsible for his safety. He is going to have to do a lot of things he may well not consent to. If you agree with Maya's comments then you will see that consent is not a horse characteristic and I don't even think it is fair to think it should be.

It has been interesting to hear of consent based training.

I'm afraid that I couldn't remember your earlier posts nor your horse situation and experiences so I looked at some of your earlier posts.

Not responding to whip

I'm wanting to teach my 3 year old some groundwork and we having some problems. one being him not listening to a whip, like at all. he's not scared of it. I can make as much nouse with it as possible and give him taps but he just stands there. I've looked everywhere for videos and tips for...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[Caol Ila]

You’re a better owner than me, picking up their tab. I’ve let mine go feral. Naked, tarting themselves out on OF and ordering take-out. I’m almost ashamed.

Is it high heels and mini-skirts she’s after, or oversized jumpers and wide-leg jeans?

Fin is naked and feral.

Hermosa is after high heels and mini skirts but not ones that make her arse look big. She likes telling me clothes don’t fit, then making me faff with returns. She made me buy four hoof boots. All I do is shop for her. I’m never giving her the credit card.

Who says I don’t listen to my horse? All I do is placate her with clothes and shoes like an overindulgent parent. And I still need a better rain sheet that fits around her front end.

 

[lifewithflash]

the problem with this is that they can't be his idea as you are totally responsible for his safety. He is going to have to do a lot of things he may well not consent to. If you agree with Maya's comments then you will see that consent is not a horse characteristic and I don't even think it is fair to think it should be.

It has been interesting to hear of consent based training.

I'm afraid that I couldn't remember your earlier posts nor your horse situation and experiences so I looked at some of your earlier posts.

Not responding to whip

I'm wanting to teach my 3 year old some groundwork and we having some problems. one being him not listening to a whip, like at all. he's not scared of it. I can make as much nouse with it as possible and give him taps but he just stands there. I've looked everywhere for videos and tips for...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

yes that was a long time ago lol. when I was just learning groundwork and not doing a good job of it.
he does listen to whip now but I mostly avoid using it, he's are not to keen on it and neither am I anymore.



anyways, after looking around a bit I think I'm looking more for cooperative care.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Doesn't all care of large animals need to be cooperative to be safe?

 

[JFTDWS]

Fin is naked and feral.

Hermosa is after high heels and mini skirts but not ones that make her arse look big. She likes telling me clothes don’t fit, then making me faff with returns. She made me buy four hoof boots. All I do is shop for her. I’m never giving her the credit card.

Who says I don’t listen to my horse? All I do is placate her with clothes and shoes like an overindulgent parent. And I still need a better rain sheet that fits around her front end.

Does she try to make you buy them again, after she’s made you send them back?

I can’t quite imagine the miniskirt that wouldn’t make a horse’s arse look big!

 

[Cloball]

You beat me to it. Aye, that kind of target training is dead easy and useful for some horses. I do it. That’s why I thought she was trying to train the pony to accept the rug. But it just means the horse has association touching/wearing the thing with getting a treat. You can see he’s completely focused on the food and not paying attention to the rug. I kind of stopped using these methods with my Highland because he’d be so buzzed and focused on the treat that he’d tune out the thing. So if he saw the thing without the treat overshadowing, it was like he’d never seen it before. My PRE is clicker trained to some extent because I could. She doesn’t get a massive adrenaline buzz from getting treats, so the food rewards are actually a useful way to communicate. Along with the usual pressure/release.



In fairness, Hermosa’s favourite thing is online shopping. She’s addicted to buying new clothes, and has somehow trained me to do all the hard work and spend all the money. I’m pretty sure I didn’t consent.

I'm glad mine isn't the only weirdo, she shows was more stress behaviours when food is involved.

 

[shortstuff99]

It is an interesting concept, and has taken off big time in parenting. On the other hand there are a lot of children starting school with terrible behaviour and bad social skills.

Makes me think there needs to be a balance of consent and kind of just having to do what you're told for the betterment of society.

 

[lifewithflash]

I just want to add an example from The Willing Equine as it explains what I mean pretty well. Cos 'consent', to me, doesn't mean how humans would use consent. however, its based the same idea.

"Let's start with an example of a horse that does not like fly spray, or even is fine with it, but I want to make sure they know they have a choice to be fly sprayed or not.

Goal: Fly spray on the horse's body with the horse happy and standing still

Setup: In an open space where the horse is free to walk away (no ropes, tack, fences, people trapping them), and with alternative reinforcement available (grass or hay very close by so the horse can walk away to get away from you/the fly spray but very easily access this other reinforcement).

I will start with teaching the horse a behaviour that we can use later as an indicator to both the horse and to myself that what's happening next is the fly spray being spritzed onto the horse's body. This is often referred to as a "start-button behavior".

For this particular scenario, this behaviour is going to be touching the fly spray bottle in my hand that I will be using to spray fly spray. I will present the fly spray bottle and when the horse reaches their nose towards it, I will click/mark and reinforce (with food usually) that behavior. Quickly the horse will learn that if they touch the fly spray bottle that gets the click which is followed by the food reinforcer as a reward.

At this stage, the horse does not understand anything other than that touching the fly spray bottle earns the click and reinforcer.

Next, I will begin spritzing a small amount of fly spray (away from the horse for safety and to not scare them) after the horse touches the fly spray bottle, and then click and reinforce. I will repeat this process over and over and over again, gradually progressing towards spraying the actual horse after they touch the bottle, and then follow that with the click and reinforcement.

At this stage, the horse will now begin to pair the touching of the fly spray bottle with being sprayed with the fly spray.

If the horse ever STOPS touching the fly spray bottle or is slower to touch the bottle, we can recognize this as a lack of consent (in other words: they are not sure or okay with what comes after touching the fly spray bottle anymore and so are no longer willing to touch the bottle). If this happens we need to adjust accordingly until we are back to a point at which the horse is comfortable. Maybe we need to slow down, start with plain water, spray away from them for longer, etc."

"I can not sit down and have a dialogue with a horse, explaining the pros and cons, and have them give me a verbalised answer before ever having experienced it. They have to actually experience and learn to recognise the pattern of cues/stimuli that indicate what's coming next... and then learn how to opt-in or opt-out of that experience."

 

[FieldOrnaments]

but they are not consenting or not to being fly sprayed armed with the knowledge that it'll keep them free from flies, because horses brains don't work like that and you can't explain it to them.

 

[shortstuff99]

The clicker training and the touching a marker etc sounds very much like trick training to me? I used to do the dog dancing to music thing and the base of all of that was training to touch markers and follow your hand as a marker. I've also seen this done with horses, especially for things like the film industry.

 

[Arzada]

If the horse ever STOPS touching the fly spray bottle or is slower to touch the bottle,

If I was the horse that would be my message to you that by this stage I am absolutely bored rigid.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I just want to add an example from The Willing Equine as it explains what I mean pretty well. Cos 'consent', to me, doesn't mean how humans would use consent. however, its based the same idea.

"Let's start with an example of a horse that does not like fly spray, or even is fine with it, but I want to make sure they know they have a choice to be fly sprayed or not.

Goal: Fly spray on the horse's body with the horse happy and standing still

Setup: In an open space where the horse is free to walk away (no ropes, tack, fences, people trapping them), and with alternative reinforcement available (grass or hay very close by so the horse can walk away to get away from you/the fly spray but very easily access this other reinforcement).

I will start with teaching the horse a behaviour that we can use later as an indicator to both the horse and to myself that what's happening next is the fly spray being spritzed onto the horse's body. This is often referred to as a "start-button behavior".

For this particular scenario, this behaviour is going to be touching the fly spray bottle in my hand that I will be using to spray fly spray. I will present the fly spray bottle and when the horse reaches their nose towards it, I will click/mark and reinforce (with food usually) that behavior. Quickly the horse will learn that if they touch the fly spray bottle that gets the click which is followed by the food reinforcer as a reward.

At this stage, the horse does not understand anything other than that touching the fly spray bottle earns the click and reinforcer.

Next, I will begin spritzing a small amount of fly spray (away from the horse for safety and to not scare them) after the horse touches the fly spray bottle, and then click and reinforce. I will repeat this process over and over and over again, gradually progressing towards spraying the actual horse after they touch the bottle, and then follow that with the click and reinforcement.

At this stage, the horse will now begin to pair the touching of the fly spray bottle with being sprayed with the fly spray.

If the horse ever STOPS touching the fly spray bottle or is slower to touch the bottle, we can recognize this as a lack of consent (in other words: they are not sure or okay with what comes after touching the fly spray bottle anymore and so are no longer willing to touch the bottle). If this happens we need to adjust accordingly until we are back to a point at which the horse is comfortable. Maybe we need to slow down, start with plain water, spray away from them for longer, etc."

"I can not sit down and have a dialogue with a horse, explaining the pros and cons, and have them give me a verbalised answer before ever having experienced it. They have to actually experience and learn to recognise the pattern of cues/stimuli that indicate what's coming next... and then learn how to opt-in or opt-out of that experience."

I do this with my cob mare who has had sore legs because of an allergic reaction except that I don't.expect her to touch the bottle. She has hay/lage available but it's free to move off. I know that she has chosen to allow me to spray her legs because she doesn't kick me. She does do a bit of a Riverdance. I use the spray because when I was putting cream on she threatened to kick me - and she meant it!. Sometimes she walks off to another bin of hay but I follow her and continue to spray. She does get a treat when the job is done. I would say that she co-operates, rather than consents. If she didn't co-operate, I would put a halter on and not alliw her to walk off, because she needs the treatment.

 

[suebou]

Consent based fly spray? I’m a big supporter of ‘ you do you’ but this activity suggests to me someone not having enough to do.
Not for me, I’m afraid.