Consistently refusing jumps... time to call vet??

[AGray825]

So recently, for the past few weeks or so, my pony has been consistently refusing jumps as soon as they get over 60cm or so (straight bar, cross poles up to 70cm)
It started after she slipped on the XC course and I later found out from my back person that she had slipped her pelvis out of alignment and she was straightened out then but we'd already started having refusal issues which I know knocked both of our confidences over higher jumps (we were just starting to go up to 70cm to 80cm confidently) but I figured that taking her back to 65, our competing height, then we could get our confidence back again.

But it seems to be getting worse, we're down to 60cm, and that's not feeling especially comfortable. I had our lesson this afternoon filmed and noticed on playback that she is switching her legs on the approach on the last couple of strides.

My instructor is torn between whether it's just a case of lost confidence and to do a lot of smaller jumping until our confidence is back up to it, as she's not lame in her flat work to mine or my instructors eye (of course a vet would be more qualified to assess that for certain), or to get the vet out for a lameness work up on the basis that she has been such an honest little horse and before would jump anything for me (even if my riding and approach was shocking) and this refusing is quite out of character for her. Also she's always been a bit odd in the way she stands, she can't seem to stand square for be long, there's always a front leg out or a hind leg cocked or something.


Granted I've only known her for just over a year and we weren't jumping last winter! So maybe this is her way in the colder months...

Apologies for the essay but any advice would be very welcome!

 

[be positive]

It sounds as if a vet check would be worthwhile as the refusing has been going on for some time and she is not feeling comfortable jumping 60cms which should be easy for most to jump, it could just be loss of confidence but in my experience a pony that had been happy to jump even on a bad approach will not lose confidence without good reason, one slip xc is not likely to have made much difference and her "pelvis being out" is probably a symptom not the cause of the issue.

 

[bonny]

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

Not much point in people training to be vets then, is there?


OP, I agree with bp, if a pony's usual behaviour changes it is most likely to be because of pain/discomfort. I would get it checked out by your vet.

 

[AGray825]

It sounds as if a vet check would be worthwhile as the refusing has been going on for some time and she is not feeling comfortable jumping 60cms which should be easy for most to jump, it could just be loss of confidence but in my experience a pony that had been happy to jump even on a bad approach will not lose confidence without good reason, one slip xc is not likely to have made much difference and her "pelvis being out" is probably a symptom not the cause of the issue.

That is what my head and heart are both saying, though without any obvious lameness to see, should I ask them to come out to do a lameness work up, or would it be more worthwhile to take her straight to NEH (who I have a lot more respect for than my local vets, who I have two misdiagnoses from which made already bad issues worse) for a full work up?

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

Just because a vet has the years and years of training and qualifications to spot something that the untrained eye might not see?
Or at least that's what I've always believed...

My instructor had a client with a dressage horse who felt 'a bit off' but not noticeably lame and still performing well, who turned out to have kissing spines and only because he felt a bit off was it investigated and because they caught it early enough he didn't need surgery and isn't now back in full work

I'd rather have a problem end like that rather than wait for obvious lameness and potentially have her not return to full fitness.

 

[be positive]

I would go to the vets you trust, little point in having a vet come that you may feel does not do a good job and leaves you still in some doubt one way or the other. It may be something easily diagnosed/ treated or nothing physical at all but as you have said only a vet is qualified to really find lameness when it may be extremely subtle, I had one that was so slightly wrong it could only just be seen on the lunge on hard ground, ridden in circles he felt fine and on the straight he was sound apart from a couple of dodgy steps after flexion tests.

 

[mustardsmum]

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

Bit harsh?

I would get a vet to do a lameness work up - one of ours started to put in really dirty stops, from being an honest jumper and it was the beginnings of spavins. Lost confidence could be an issue but the fact she is disuniting in canter does sound more like a pain/physical issue. Hope you get it sorted 🙂

 

[AGray825]

I would go to the vets you trust, little point in having a vet come that you may feel does not do a good job and leaves you still in some doubt one way or the other. It may be something easily diagnosed/ treated or nothing physical at all but as you have said only a vet is qualified to really find lameness when it may be extremely subtle, I had one that was so slightly wrong it could only just be seen on the lunge on hard ground, ridden in circles he felt fine and on the straight he was sound apart from a couple of dodgy steps after flexion tests.

Interesting you say that as I've never been happy with how she's looked on the lunge, but with her soundness under saddle and that she was still winning in hand classes I thought perhaps it was more a balance issue, an assumption that was reinforced by my instructor when I first mentioned it.
What was the diagnosis for yours in that circumstance?

Bit harsh?

I would get a vet to do a lameness work up - one of ours started to put in really dirty stops, from being an honest jumper and it was the beginnings of spavins. Lost confidence could be an issue but the fact she is disuniting in canter does sound more like a pain/physical issue. Hope you get it sorted 🙂

Thank you, these sound-but-not-quite-right types I know can be a pain! Did you manage to bring your spavins horse back to full work? Just in case that could be her diagnosis
I'm hoping so cause she really was finding a new lease of life after years as a show pony on the XC course and with my youngster showing signs of being a problem horses with lameness problems (pedal bone fracture, a year in to healing and still not 100% sound) it'll be just my luck to have both of them out of work! :/

 

[be positive]

Mine was in front and given a probable diagnosis of deep bruising, the ground was hard and he had been busy eventing, he had some rest, bute and came sound so we were lucky it was nothing more serious, if he had not come right he was going in for an MRI as it could have been something developing in the foot that could not be seen on the xrays.

 

[JanetGeorge]

So recently, for the past few weeks or so, my pony has been consistently refusing jumps as soon as they get over 60cm or so (straight bar, cross poles up to 70cm)
It started after she slipped on the XC course and I later found out from my back person that she had slipped her pelvis out of alignment and she was straightened out then

Oh dear - everytime I see or hear this I can SEE the face of my equine physo!! There are a lot of injuries to the pelvis that can cause problems - but the pelvis does NOT slip out - and if it did, the horse would be very lame and it would not be possible just to 'slip it back in'. I'll bet your 'back person; is a chiroprator or an osteopath - some of these DO talk nonsense. If your horse is not actually lame, then you need a good equine physiotherapist. If you happen to be anywhere aound South Birmingham/Worcestershire I can give you the name of a VERY good one. Or speak to your vet.

 

[mustardsmum]

Thank you, these sound-but-not-quite-right types I know can be a pain! Did you manage to bring your spavins horse back to full work? Just in case that could be her diagnosis
I'm hoping so cause she really was finding a new lease of life after years as a show pony on the XC course and with my youngster showing signs of being a problem horses with lameness problems (pedal bone fracture, a year in to healing and still not 100% sound) it'll be just my luck to have both of them out of work! :/[/QUOTE]


His hocks are injected every year, and we took the decision to stop jumping him. He’s 20 now and the hock injections are just part of his yearly maintenance, keeps him sound for hacking and popping the odd log. His just had them done for the 3rd time, and is feeling great! I know of ponies that are still jumping happily after hocks have been medicated, but for him - he’s had a busy life and I just felt he was happier hacking 🙂

 

[AGray825]

Mine was in front and given a probable diagnosis of deep bruising, the ground was hard and he had been busy eventing, he had some rest, bute and came sound so we were lucky it was nothing more serious, if he had not come right he was going in for an MRI as it could have been something developing in the foot that could not be seen on the xrays.

I suppose we have done a fair amount of jumping on harder ground this year.... that could be a contributing factor as well
Fingers crossed it turns out to be something like that for my girl... I've decided to contact either NEH or Cambridge Equine as I've had good dealings with both of these with previous horses (Cambridge I can just send a quick email to one of the vets there as I work at Cambridge Uni 🤗)

Oh dear - everytime I see or hear this I can SEE the face of my equine physo!! There are a lot of injuries to the pelvis that can cause problems - but the pelvis does NOT slip out - and if it did, the horse would be very lame and it would not be possible just to 'slip it back in'. I'll bet your 'back person; is a chiroprator or an osteopath - some of these DO talk nonsense. If your horse is not actually lame, then you need a good equine physiotherapist. If you happen to be anywhere aound South Birmingham/Worcestershire I can give you the name of a VERY good one. Or speak to your vet.

Unfortunately I'm Cambs area, but I'd assume I'd need a vet referral to go to a good physio anyhow?
Yes my back person is just a mctimoney chiro so I think a proper physio might be a good call. She is desperately wonky and her work has improved it somewhat but not as much as I would want if you know what I mean.

Could anyone give some feelings on whether the teeth could play a part? She has wavemouth and her teeth hadn't been seen to for years before I got her and when I had the dentist/vet out to see her she recommended that she's be rechecked in 4-6 months, that was 4 months ago this month... would this be an area to be checked or is it more likely to be elsewhere do you think?

 

[AGray825]

Thank you, these sound-but-not-quite-right types I know can be a pain! Did you manage to bring your spavins horse back to full work? Just in case that could be her diagnosis
I'm hoping so cause she really was finding a new lease of life after years as a show pony on the XC course and with my youngster showing signs of being a problem horses with lameness problems (pedal bone fracture, a year in to healing and still not 100% sound) it'll be just my luck to have both of them out of work! :/

His hocks are injected every year, and we took the decision to stop jumping him. He’s 20 now and the hock injections are just part of his yearly maintenance, keeps him sound for hacking and popping the odd log. His just had them done for the 3rd time, and is feeling great! I know of ponies that are still jumping happily after hocks have been medicated, but for him - he’s had a busy life and I just felt he was happier hacking 🙂[/QUOTE]

Interesting to know... a friend of mine has had her mare injected recently and I still back doing hunter trials and has just gone up a height bracket but I always worry about injections with their success period decreasingly the more you do... or is that dependant on the type of injection/severity of the spavins?

My girl has had a show pony life, then was left for a couple of years and just ridden every so often round the fields or on a hack according to the previous owner.... so not super hard as far as I can tell and certainly not jumped or dressage'd loads!

 

[ester]

I know several ACPAT physios who have used the exact same terminology about pelvises, they know what they mean when they say it but it doesn't translate that well.

As you know there was a possible trigger event too OP I'd definitely get her worked up and if you are insured and in the locality take her where suits you/who you have confidence in. Even if it's just to put your mind at rest.

FWIW my experienced instructor also couldn't see a lameness, that's because it only actually showed up at all the day after working in an arena, even the vet was surprise how sound the horse was considering the damage so plenty of reasons to get a vet instead of an instructors opinion though I think you know that OP .

One thought, will she jump free/on the lunge?

 

[JanetGeorge]

Unfortunately I'm Cambs area, but I'd assume I'd need a vet referral to go to a good physio anyhow?
Yes my back person is just a mctimoney chiro so I think a proper physio might be a good call. She is desperately wonky and her work has improved it somewhat but not as much as I would want if you know what I mean.

Could anyone give some feelings on whether the teeth could play a part? She has wavemouth and her teeth hadn't been seen to for years before I got her and when I had the dentist/vet out to see her she recommended that she's be rechecked in 4-6 months, that was 4 months ago this month... would this be an area to be checked or is it more likely to be elsewhere do you think?

In theory, yes - but I found mine and she then contacted my vets. If you get a vet referral, check the physio out. The first one that was referred to me by vets was ruddy useless. Talked the talk and charged like a wounded bull!! A GOOD equine physio - like a good EDT - will be a horse person FIRST!! They have to have the touch - and the feel. A bit the same with vets - I've had ruddy useless vets - now thankfully have found a good one who IS a horseman - riding, hunting and owning horses LONG before he became a vet. Same with my EDT - hell, he worked for me as a rider years before he started training as an EDT - NEVER needs sedation to0 do any horse, unless an extraction is needed. I would certainly get your horses teeth checked, but I doubt that they are the cause of the current problem. A wave mouth - after treatment - may make mastication a bit harder but usually not problems with the bit. And bit problems are there all the time a bit is in the mouth, even without a rider.

The only other thing that would be worth ruling out with these symptoms would be hind gut ulcers. I've just had one back fr 're-schooling and sale' after 18 months. She HAD developed a sore back and started bucking after a new saddle!! Change of saddle and she stopped bucking for a while. Lack of turnout - you name it - everything was 'wrong' with her management and she had also been 'diagnosed' with hind gut ulcers. We've had the physio (all clear) except physio alerted us to likely hind gut ulcers (which owners finally admitted to). Treated her while starting the work again. Now all clear on tests for hind gut ulcers - but still not going forward well, especially when first mounted (but no bucking since she's been back.) I THINK she's suffering from remembered pain - it's just a case of taking her slowly and convincing her she's now fine. If your horse is not lame - and if physio gives the all clear - and the problems only appear at jumping, I suspect this may well be remembered pain. I would try taking her back to cross poles, and 18" jumps - lots of rewards and encouragement. Don't move up on height until she's jumping (or trotting over) calmly without unnecessary leg changes. And then slowly increase. If you do this over 2-3 months, you should find a real and lasting improvement. If not, the next step gets expensive - full back x-rays. You need a vet with a powerful enough x-ray unit to get a GOOD picture of the rear half of the spine - a fall may leave a calcified ligament that causes intermittent pain at particular 'stages' of ridden work. I had to get another practice in recently to get clear x-rays on 3 horses - I was looking for Kissing Spines in THREE horses out of the same mare (who had 'history') Luckily all were clear but the pb Arab - who had turned himself over during backing - had the calcified ligament. Bloody horses - there's always SOMETHING.

 

[Carrottom]

Have you had the farrier recently? Mine started refusing when he had bruising in a front foot. The ground this year had been very hard, might be worth checking before the expensive vet work.

 

[AGray825]

I know several ACPAT physios who have used the exact same terminology about pelvises, they know what they mean when they say it but it doesn't translate that well.

As you know there was a possible trigger event too OP I'd definitely get her worked up and if you are insured and in the locality take her where suits you/who you have confidence in. Even if it's just to put your mind at rest.

FWIW my experienced instructor also couldn't see a lameness, that's because it only actually showed up at all the day after working in an arena, even the vet was surprise how sound the horse was considering the damage so plenty of reasons to get a vet instead of an instructors opinion though I think you know that OP .

One thought, will she jump free/on the lunge?

Difficult to test as I only have a field yo work in... she'll quite happily pop a small fence as I'm leading her though, no hesitation or anything... but we're talking the same height as she pops quite happily under saddle at the moment!

Have you had the farrier recently? Mine started refusing when he had bruising in a front foot. The ground this year had been very hard, might be worth checking before the expensive vet work.

She was reshod a couple of weeks ago (Oct 20th) and there's always been issues with her feet, poor hoof quality and collapsed heels namely, both of which farrier is slowly correcting and I've adjusted her diet to help with the hoof quality.
I suppose it could be a factor but the refusals started relatively recently, whereas her foot problems have been ongoing since I got her, so I think I'll still go vet route
Maybe this is a combination of little things and she's finally decided to start letting me know! She may just need a full service but we'll see what vets say on Monday

An additional query... would you all keep her in light work (w/t/c, working on roundness and straightness on the flat and popping a dmall X-pole every now and then) until she's seen by the vet?
My instructor recommended it as she's not actually lame and if she's kept in work the vet's would get a truer picture of her but I also don't want to risk her... you know, just in case!

 

[chocolategirl]

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

Wow that’s a loaded question! I’m not sure what’s going on with your pony OP, but she’s clearly trying to tell you something isn’t right. Here are 2 of my experiences with horses we own.
Horse 1 had been jumping clear round BE 100’s but her stress age scores were not great due to her being ‘heavy in the hand’. Att the end of the season, she had a month off, and the plan was for me to then concentrate on improving her dressage scores. On being brought back into work, she started stumbling occasionally, but quite badly. Had all usual checks done, needed up at the vets, upon where she was diagnosed with facet joint degeneration of the neck bone and mild arthritis of both nicks. With medication, she is now in full work, though we are careful not to over jump her, and she gets 3 monthly checks at the vets. All good at mo.
Horse 2 had been getting fantastic dresssage scores, clear xc, but showjumping was like a car crash. He wasn’t refusing, but was just knocking poles out as soon as they went over 80cm and he had to use his back more. He was diagnosed with kissing spine and was successfully operated on. Much better now, though he does now have a stifle problem😏
I suppose the point I’m trying to make, is that some horses, even when they’re in pain, will just carry on stoically, until something breaks beyond repair and some are very good at telling you early on that something is wrong. Your vet will have been trained to find out what the problem is, your riding instructor won’t have. I’ve had horses for over 40 years, but when my vet told me my mares issue was in the neck, I swear you could have knocked me down with a feather. Even with all my years of experience, I never ever thought it may be in the neck. It’s worth getting your vet to rule out any physical issues before you go any further. Good luck!

 

[Hazkirbo]

Oh dear - everytime I see or hear this I can SEE the face of my equine physo!! There are a lot of injuries to the pelvis that can cause problems - but the pelvis does NOT slip out - and if it did, the horse would be very lame and it would not be possible just to 'slip it back in'. I'll bet your 'back person; is a chiroprator or an osteopath - some of these DO talk nonsense. If your horse is not actually lame, then you need a good equine physiotherapist. If you happen to be anywhere aound South Birmingham/Worcestershire I can give you the name of a VERY good one. Or speak to your vet.

Got to agreee with this. My horse slipped his pelvis and he was on boxrest for ages! (well I think that’s what he did, it was a fair while ago😂 it was definitely something pelvis related though!).

He had quite an extensive rehab program that my vet, chiro and instructor put together. Took him 6 months to be back in full work.

Definitely wasn’t just a case of having my chiro put it ‘back in place’. Wish it was as it’d have been loads cheaper!

 

[little_critter]

Have you had the saddle checked recently? A friend had an issue with her horse refusing and it turned out the saddle no longer fitted correctly.

 

[Chippers1]

I thought this was the post I'd written the other day! For us it is definitely a confidence issue as when I first started jumping properly I was super nervous so we had a lot of refusals but as both of our confidence grew we've been flying but we had a slip at xc and it's affected both of us confidence wise. He's definitely a horse that takes his confidence from his rider!
We're taking it slowly and doing smaller jumps until we're back up to our full confidence. With me, even if in my head I'm not feeling too nervous there's a subconscious bit that transfers to my horse so I need to be 100% commited to the jump. Your horse may be feeling similar, or you, maybe feeling slightly nervous! But if she's refusing every jump over 60 it may be worth getting her checked out

 

[AGray825]

UPDATE:
So talked to the lameness specialist (and coincidentally the practice owner) at my local vets, explained the situation, what happened at XC, what the Chiro said etcetc basically reiterating over the phone my original post here!
He says that, by the sounds of things, and how I'm describing her behaviour he thinks she's twinged something around her back end (obviously without proper examination he can't say where) and has recommended I start on a bute trial, 2 sachets a day for a few days, enough time to get into her system and then see if her ridden performance has improved, then take her off the bute and see if she reverts back. If she does revert straight back then obviously he'll come out for a full lameness workup, but to let him know regardless and discuss further at the time.

Have you had the saddle checked recently? A friend had an issue with her horse refusing and it turned out the saddle no longer fitted correctly.

I did wonder this and my intention was always to have her saddle checked after Christmas as it was last checked at the beginning of Summer, it fit nicely then but she wasn't fit herself then and she could have changed shaped since then. so I may bump her saddle recheck to this side of Christmas instead!

I thought this was the post I'd written the other day! For us it is definitely a confidence issue as when I first started jumping properly I was super nervous so we had a lot of refusals but as both of our confidence grew we've been flying but we had a slip at xc and it's affected both of us confidence wise. He's definitely a horse that takes his confidence from his rider!
We're taking it slowly and doing smaller jumps until we're back up to our full confidence. With me, even if in my head I'm not feeling too nervous there's a subconscious bit that transfers to my horse so I need to be 100% commited to the jump. Your horse may be feeling similar, or you, maybe feeling slightly nervous! But if she's refusing every jump over 60 it may be worth getting her checked out

I do worry that with myself. My biggest problem is that was worst fall came from a fence refusal and subsequent duck-out, I came flying off over the shoulder and landed on both feet and heard this awful crack. Queue displaced ankle fracture, surgery, 7 weeks full cast rest, 6 weeks medicine boot and relearning to walk, and even now I have issues with it.
My instructor did actually say (bearing in mind this is a new instructor, we've only had a couple lessons together so far) that she'd be interested to know what a sports psychiatrist to say to/about me.
Someone else has a thread on here about hypnotherapy for confidence issues.... I'm almost tempted to try it!

 

[Chippers1]

Someone else has a thread on here about hypnotherapy for confidence issues.... I'm almost tempted to try it!

I read about that too and was also tempted!

 

[JanetGeorge]

Someone else has a thread on here about hypnotherapy for confidence issues.... I'm almost tempted to try it!

lol, no-one needs hypnotherapy - just sing non-stop, as loudly as possible. It works!

 

[fredflop]

I’d be tempted to go for the physio and dentist before the vet, just in case, and shouldn’t cost to much money.

 

[AGray825]

lol, no-one needs hypnotherapy - just sing non-stop, as loudly as possible. It works!

LMAO, my instructor keeps making me yell geronimo on the last stride before the jump.... this is how we know that I need work on my timing cause I always start yelling after take off instead of on take off!
Also I think I sound like a bleeding moron and that's all I can think about so I'm not sure it helps 😂😂😂

Otherwise I'm tempted to have a flask of gin with me when I go jumping 😉

I’d be tempted to go for the physio and dentist before the vet, just in case, and shouldn’t cost to much money.

See, now I was always convinced that any decent physio needed veterinary permission before treating a horse.... is that old news now or??
Cause I always thought the vet and physio worked together if there were particular problems to sort through?

Also my dentist is my vet ( not enough good qualified EDTs in my area so difficult to get an urgent appointment!) so my plan would be to request a check up of the teeth if he's coming out to take a look at her anyway

 

[sport horse]

Sounds as though you have a very practical vet and trying a few sachets of bute should work out cheaper than a saddle fitter, physio, dentist etc etc.

 

[LovesCobs]

Why do you think a vet can magically see things that your instructor can’t , just wondered ! I think it’s easiest to tell when you are riding a horse, especially your own as you know how she felt before .

I had a lameness work up on daughters pony because she was refusing jumps. We’d been at a rally with lots of experienced people. No one thought she was lame. Turns out she was lame in all 4 legs! She came right, I’m glad we took her in x

 

[flying_high]

See, now I was always convinced that any decent physio needed veterinary permission before treating a horse.... is that old news now or??
Cause I always thought the vet and physio worked together if there were particular problems to sort through?

Any decent bodyworker will ask permission from the horse's vet to come and treat a horse. Different practices have different ways of handling this.

Many will automatically give permission without seeing the horse first. Especially has many horses have routine bodywork, without there being a visit for a specific problem.

Normally you contact the physio, they ask for your vet's contact details and the physio will contact the vet to ensure they have permission. Often done by email via vet's office manager.

Depends on the vet and policy, some are more controlling than others.

No physio / bodyworker can diagnose. And they should refuse to treat if they think is an issue that needs a vet. Or if the horse is currently lame.

 

[AGray825]

UPDATE No. 2:

So we've been just about a week now on Bute (2 sachets per day, now down to 1 sachet per day), unfortunately weather has been so bad that I haven't had much of a opportunity to test a jump out (got my original instructor back on Friday to see our progress, fingers crossed for it to stay dry!), but we did manage to get some cantering over poles done over the weekend and wanted to see what anyone thought of how she looks?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156978445576654

Granted, as mentioned in the facebook post, we had a battle to keep her slow and steady (that's fairly standard given that she's had a week doing nothing after getting used to being busy)
The exercise was mainly to help her slow down, and to help myself start counting strides because I know I'm absolutely rubbish at seeing a stride into a fence!

I still think I'm going to get the vet to have a look, just to put my mind at ease. I'd rather have him come out and say 'There's nothing wrong here' or 'You just need a physio to come out and see her', as opposed to assuming she's fine because in all other aspects she's as alright as she's ever been and not exploring it, only to have things go badly wrong further down the line if you see what I mean.
Also I do think I might get the saddle fitter out again. Or maybe take her up to a saddle fitter, so we can use his facilities and have a wider range of saddles to try out if he thinks hers isn't suitable!