constant barking

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poiuytrewq

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As some may know I homed an older collie botch last summer after her owner fell ill and eventually died.
She is about 10 and had only lived with him. Coming to a family with other dogs was obviously a huge upheaval for her but she's now a different dog. She was fat (obese) and very stiff with a definite limp. We managed short walks but that was her limit.
now she is slim, very active and I can't tire her out! (Amazing what weight loss does)
At first she didn't get on with the other dogs at all and when they played she would bark. This stopped pretty much by me giving her attention whilst they play so distracting her.
We have a huge utility room where the dogs beds are and where they sleep. She barks constantly out there (and anything sets her off in with us but not such a problem)
If for example someone gets up in the night or a pipe bangs or one of the other dogs moves she starts. It's consistent rythmic irritating barking which can go on for hours only stopping if someone go's to her. She starts when it gets light most mornings. They are shut out while we eat and she barks the whole time.
We don't have neighbours luckily but my daughter is in the middle of exams and disturbed sleep every night isn't going to help apart from the fact it's literally driving me insane.
Clicker type training won't work as it's when I'm not in the room with her that she barks
 
Is it an anxiety type Barking? How are her eyes?

Our ten years old collie has been Barking and howling when we aren't home, which is rare. He used to be okay but we have found out he is going blind so we think it's unsettling him when he thinks.he is alone.

We are going to get some training/help to help him deal with it. Maybe crate training to help him feel secure
 
if its a fairly recent change i would expect some cognitive or sensory dysfunction ... there is medication that can help, so first port of call would be a discussion with your vet. If all medical symptoms are ruled out I would be avoiding putting her in the utility room where she barks 'constantly' as she has obviously developed a habit/pattern. This may mean that you need to crate train her to have her in a separate room, or put up a baby gate so that she can see/hear you more clearly. There may also be a learning component here - you twice mention that you give her attention when she barks - for the playing, and if you go down to her at night. As disturbed sleep is terrible, if she was mine she would be crate trained for my bedroom so that you can distract/settle her easily if she disturbs at night ... and you may find that she feels safer and more relaxed near to you anyway. This also means you can cover the crate ... which means you might be able to sleep past day break! You say you can't tire her out, but at 10 a dog should be slowing down and enjoying many hours of undisturbed sleep per day ... with collies it is very easy to get them too 'hyper' and be unable to switch off, especially if she is being stimulated by younger dogs - consider using food toys such as stuffed Kongs, kong denta sticks and scatter feeding for her so that she has to 'work' for most of her food, so that she is mentally tired - which is healthier than a hyper dog who can't switch off. If she has always lived with an owner it may be that living with a group of dogs away from humans is just a bit too hard at this stage of her life and you may just have to change things a bit so that she has more human contact in her later years.
 
I think it may be a bit of a collie trait! We took on my mum's collie x GSD three years ago, and she was a real PITA barking at every little noise, every person who passed the garden etc. The only blessing is she is now 16 and going a bit deaf so hardly barks at all now, as she obviously can't hear as many noises as she used to! Not really much help to you though ...
 
Her eyes I'd say are fine, she's incredibly sharp and never misses anything thrown at her.
I would be confident in saying I've given her attention (I know that would fix it!) But I never go down in the night and only in the morning because eventually I do have to get up!
Absolutely no way is she sleeping in the bedroom! Dogs are strictly downstairs!
I could try a crate or even just a different room. She slept separate at first (no barking) but one night got in bed with the others and refused to leave! That's when it started but is steadily getting worse.
 
Afraid my last bc was a terrible yapper-we got him out of doing the attention barking but anything would set him off, car doors etc down the other end of street etc. A big reason why I would be reluctant to have another. Crate training helped him a great deal though.
 
I've had collies all my life and never had one that barked at all, the same with a lot of collies that I know. My present dog I'm sure can bark but I can't remember when I last heard her, so don't blame it on the breed ! I think it sounds like your dog isn't coping with her new surroundings and although you say you won't have her upstairs with you, it is the obvious answer.
 
Have you tried yelling 'Quiet'? I think having the dog upstairs is a totally unreasonable suggestion if the OP doesn't do that, not everyone wants dog hair and mud all over the house.
 
Clodagh said:
Have you tried yelling 'Quiet'? I think having the dog upstairs is a totally unreasonable suggestion if the OP doesn't do that, not everyone wants dog hair and mud all over the house.
Click to expand...

Isn't it better than having the dog downstairs barking all night, no reason why she would be muddy last thing at night.
 
In that case I would suggest working hard to massively condition a crate as a positive place, and then, when she is loving it and moving into/sleeping in there of her own accord, I would try it in a different room to where she now sleeps, near an adaptil plug in and with a 'white noise' machine or download playing to over lay any sounds that may be disturbing her. I would also still bear in mind all the other times she is barking and work to reduce that through mental stimulation (not just throwing a ball or stick) and use of baby gates to let her see you - it's not just a welfare issue for you, it's clear she is not coping and trying to express that the only way she can. It's hard for an old dog who may be starting to fail to be separate from people if that is what she has been used to for most of her life. Are you sure she gets on OK with the other dogs? If you are getting up some mornings when she is still barking, you *are* rewarding the barking - you are putting it on a variable schedule of reinforcement ... which is the most effective pattern of reinforcement to maintain a behaviour at a high strength!

although collies are sensitive, and sound sensitive, and highly triggered by movement, they are not pathological barkers unless there is a problem, so please don't just blame the breed.
 
Quote: "At first she didn't get on with the other dogs at all and when they played she would bark. This stopped pretty much by me giving her attention whilst they play so distracting her.
We have a huge utility room where the dogs beds are and where they sleep. She barks constantly out there (and anything sets her off in with us but not such a problem)"

So dog barked and you gave her attention....

Now she barks when she wants attention.

?
 
I'd suggest that confining a dog which is 10 years of age, if it hasn't grown up and become accustomed to restricted confinement and a cage would be beyond cruelty. A cage could also, in a dog which is already displaying stress levels, audibly, very well make matters worse.

Finding out why your dog is behaving as it is, is quite impossible over the airwaves, and however well intentioned some of the previous advice, I'd suggest that you ignore it and that you have someone competent, visit your home and observe what's going on. It may be a bit late now, considering that the behaviour pattern seems to be fairly well established, but in your shoes, and as soon as it started, a huge dose of verbals would have been the way that I'd have gone. At this stage though, it's just possible that serious face to face admonishment may work. You will have to mean it though!

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
I'd suggest that confining a dog which is 10 years of age, if it hasn't grown up and become accustomed to restricted confinement and a cage would be beyond cruelty. A cage could also, in a dog which is already displaying stress levels, audibly, very well make matters worse.



Alec.
Click to expand...

In that case I would suggest working hard to massively condition a crate as a positive place, and then, when she is loving it and moving into/sleeping in there of her own accord,
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...60-constant-barking/page2#5JFL0kpHCJ2c7KAv.99



Sigh ... no one is suggesting forcing the dog into a crate .. there are ways to teach dogs that crates can be safe spaces where they can completely relax and switch off, without being triggered by every little sound and sight. Correct crate training means setting things up so that the dog *chooses* the crate - it's not difficult, and I have done it with elderly dogs when, for example, they have needed restrictions due to injury or surgery.

On the other hand of course, rollicking the living daylights out of an old dog who is currently struggling in her environment, and has had a great deal of inadvertant attention for the barking so will be thoroughly confused, is seen, by you, as the humane way to go ... quite apart from everything else, how is the timing going to work on that ... dog barks, only runs downstairs, dog hears owner coming and goes quiet, owner opens door to silent dog and ... what ... still shouts at the dog?? Crystal clear communication!!

If the dog is displaying stress, which in your own words she already is, then being told off with poor timing may well make the dog even more insecure.

"a huge dose of verbals would have been the way that I'd have gone. At this stage though, it's just possible that serious face to face admonishment may work. You will have to mean it though!"
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...60-constant-barking/page2#uEkHSLJwuxOGvC10.99
 
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Alec, both my last bc and my newish rescue dog love(d) their crate. They are not used as a punishment, more of a safe space that is theirs. Current dog is 5 and to the best of my knowledge not crated previously. She's epileptic so wanted her safe overnight. At other times she has a choice of two other beds but still opts sometimes to go her crate for some quiet time. I never put her in there, she went in of own accord from the get go. The bc wasn't crate trained until he was 10 and again, took to it very readily. My setter hasn't a crate, he's perfectly happy as he is but for some dogs, it's useful.
 
Alec Swan said:
I'd suggest that confining a dog which is 10 years of age, if it hasn't grown up and become accustomed to restricted confinement and a cage would be beyond cruelty.
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What a lot of twaddle! You'd better report me to the RSPCA then! I took on my mum's dog at the age of 13, because mum could no longer cope and no-one else wanted the dog. Despite having another dog for company and knowing us well, the change in home and routine was obviously unsettling for her which led to destructive chewing (two bridles :o) and fouling in the house. We introduced her to a crate in a sympathetic manner and she accustomed to the crate quickly and without visible stress. It meant that we could leave her overnight without coming down to mess and destruction, and it also reduced the risk of illness/injury to the dog from chewing unsuitable things. Once she settled, the crate could be left open, and interestingly she would opt to still go in there, rather than lie on the normal dog bed.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Her eyes I'd say are fine, she's incredibly sharp and never misses anything thrown at her.
I would be confident in saying I've given her attention (I know that would fix it!) But I never go down in the night and only in the morning because eventually I do have to get up!
Absolutely no way is she sleeping in the bedroom! Dogs are strictly downstairs!
I could try a crate or even just a different room. She slept separate at first (no barking) but one night got in bed with the others and refused to leave! That's when it started but is steadily getting worse.
Click to expand...

I think you've answered your own question; put her in another room again. Collies aren't vocal IME but they are sensitive and prone to neurotic behaviour when they lack stimulation. Barking, scent marking and generally being destructive are all neurotic indicators. I've never used a crate, I have outside kennelling and mine would never go in bedrooms either. I know you've done your best but she's been a one person dog and this may suit her better. Just a thought.
 
Alec Swan said:
Following your experience with one collie, I shall bow to to your greater understanding.

Alec.
Click to expand...

Actually I have crate-trained more than one older dog, and found they take to it very well, IF done properly. The clue is in the term crate-TRAINING - ie don't just shove it in a crate, lock the door and leave it there.

You may not want to use a crate yourself, but please do not say 'it is beyond cruel' for people to do so, if they are doing it in a considered and sympathetic way, which is often in the long term interests of the dog.
 
Dry Rot said:
Quote: "At first she didn't get on with the other dogs at all and when they played she would bark. This stopped pretty much by me giving her attention whilst they play so distracting her.
We have a huge utility room where the dogs beds are and where they sleep. She barks constantly out there (and anything sets her off in with us but not such a problem)"

So dog barked and you gave her attention....

Now she barks when she wants attention.

?
Click to expand...

Ah ok- this is one of those things I have got wrong! I actually posted on here at the time and was told to make a big fuss of her while the others played as it would distract her from barking and be positive re - enforcement and preferable to telling her off?
 
Also I really don't think she's stressed or unhappy. I honestly don't, she's happy (as in the wags her tail a lot?!) Active, loves walks and cuddles. She also started to try and play with the others but seems not to really know how but the fact she's trying to interact with them is a step forward.
She joins in when I play with them all.
 
poiuytrewq said:
Ah ok- this is one of those things I have got wrong! I actually posted on here at the time and was told to make a big fuss of her while the others played as it would distract her from barking and be positive re - enforcement and preferable to telling her off?
Click to expand...

When there are those who post on here for advice, selecting what is sound, and what isn't, isn't always easy and I do understand. If we praise and make a fuss of a dog when it's doing what we don't want, then logically we're encouraging behaviour which we don't need. The most important tool which you have in your training box is your voice and how you use it may well depend upon how your dog views you. Have you considered a face to face "Shut the **** up"? Give it a whizz, there are those who find that it works. :)

Alec.
 
Alec Swan said:
When there are those who post on here for advice, selecting what is sound, and what isn't, isn't always easy and I do understand. If we praise and make a fuss of a dog when it's doing what we don't want, then logically we're encouraging behaviour which we don't need. The most important tool which you have in your training box is your voice and how you use it may well depend upon how your dog views you. Have you considered a face to face "Shut the **** up"? Give it a whizz, there are those who find that it works. :)

Alec.
Click to expand...

Thanks Alec, When i was doing the making a fuss thing i tried to get to her BEFORE the barking started rather than after but i may well have encouraged it i guess.
Part of the problem i think was that she was so sad and inverted at first and of course had suddenly lost her one and only so i tried only ever to be nice! I wanted her to like us and maybe i should have been stricter from day one (although she is beautifully behaved for me in every other respect). I felt like she'd had such a crappy time- she was left alone in the owners kitchen with daily visits from family for weeks that being told off would really upset her!
I'll man up ;)
 
I wonder if you left a radio on quietly it might distract her from other sounds? I would also shout at her tbh!
 
poiuytrewq said:
Thanks Alec, When i was doing the making a fuss thing i tried to get to her BEFORE the barking started rather than after but i may well have encouraged it i guess.
Part of the problem i think was that she was so sad and inverted at first and of course had suddenly lost her one and only so i tried only ever to be nice! I wanted her to like us and maybe i should have been stricter from day one (although she is beautifully behaved for me in every other respect). I felt like she'd had such a crappy time- she was left alone in the owners kitchen with daily visits from family for weeks that being told off would really upset her!
I'll man up ;)
Click to expand...

I really do understand. Honestly I do. We can compensate for the misery which is inflicted upon children, but when we attempt it with dogs, they simply don't have the capacity to grasp our intent. They're dogs.

I wouldn't disagree with Clodagh's suggestion either. With new puppies in the house, I always leave a wireless playing quietly at night for them. I'm not sure but I suspect the presence of human voices seems to help.

The poor wee dog's had a rough time before she came to you and abandonment can't have been easy. Equally, fitting in with your other dogs won't have been easy for her either. A bit of carefully ordered discipline and leadership may also help. Good luck!

Alec.
 
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