Contact issues... feeling a bit lost

[_jetset_]

I took Grace for a lesson with Spencer on Tuesday and she was being really awkward again

I explained to him how I felt she had been going better and much softer but he pointed out to me that I am being a little too soft with her because of everything she has been through

He said she no longer thinks she can sit back and push from her hocks following the PSD injury followed by a strained sacroiliac (as a result of the initial injury) but it is now my job to show her that she can and that I mean it when I ask

Spencer also said he thought she has become too comfortable in the KK she has been in because she knows that if something gets tough or worries her she can just lean on it and launch me out of my seat... which I have been struggling with if I am honest. So he suggested that if I am still having some issues with the contact we start think about trying her in a double.

I only started using the KK the last few weeks because I have been struggling with her contact, I did buy her a Myler which I felt was a bit she respected more but did not feel happy in... however, following what Spencer said to me, I decided to put the Myler back in this morning.

She mouthed up instantly on it and the walk was ok. However, as soon as I asked her to go into the outside contact on the left rein in the trot, she exploded

She was half rearing, trying to spin through the shoulder and cantering on the spot. Normally at this stage I would relax all contact and my leg aids and just quieten her down again, but this morning I really stuck to my guns. I kept hold of the outside contact and kept asking her to go into it, ignoring her tantrums (and we did have a few more) and eventually she just came soft and light in my hand, came up through the shoulder and I felt she was really starting to improve in the hind leg.

So, onto the right rein and again, she threw her dummy out of the pram and started half rearing and throwing a complete wobbler (a little milder than the previous one). However, rather than keeping at her task like she did on the left rein, she came soft and more 'up' in her head carriage within seconds.

I worked hard on turning her with the shoulder on circles, decreasing and increasing the size of them and by the end she was really sweaty and it is the first time I have felt she did more work than I did.

She used to be such an easy mare to ride before her time off, I start worrying that she really does not want to do this and that is the root of the tantrums. But when she does start working, she feels so amazing that I get the tingly exciting feeling in my stomach.

Could it genuinely be that she really does not think she can do it and throws a real wobbler because of this? Could it really be that I just need to convince her that she can (I think I did a little of that today)? And could this all be down to me using the softly softly approach for so long since she started coming back into work and letting her get away with blue murder???

 

[Madam_max]

TBH, I think you are over analysing everything.

 

[_jetset_]

You think???

It is just that she never used to react like this before her injury. Yes she would buck and have a paddy at times, but this is so acute... I know there is nothing physically there now, I don't think there is anyone else left who can tell me that

 

[jellybaby]

I agree with the over analysing comment, but if she were my mare, I would insisting on no tantrums and no silly beaviour.

She's got it into her head that you are soft and she doesn't have to work properly, so its time to restablish the boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't.

No more Mr Nice Guy.

What level is she working at? Elem, medium....?

JB xx

 

[Madam_max]

I would honestly ignore her and yes be tougher with her. She is prob being a madam (as they are) which is nothing to do with her injuries. I think we are all guilty of being too soft with our own horses.

 

[dressagecrazy]

Seeing as you've covered every base i would just keep working her & showing her that Tantrums wont win. My horse use to like keeping me away from the right rein, once i did get a good contact & full control of the shoulder he gave up & let me ride him.
It could take a while for her to realise & take a lot of persistence on your part.

 

[BBs]

I believe 90% time when horses play up and throw strops its because they are in pain in some way, or we're not asking correctly and confusing them by blocking etc.
Then theres the 10% of horses who are damn right naughty and wont focus because they cant be arsed or have learnt to avoid work.

You have bascially covered every avenue with Grace ie vet, tack, back. You know shes okay now, and you have good training.

Now if she were mine, I wouldnt be putting up with the tantrums. I would probably continue to ignore and get on with it.
She sounds like shes reacting now because she knows she can, as she knows you will think something else is wrong.

Getting after a little bit might help. Im not talking getting angry or smacking her with a whip, that IMO will just make her cross and be more of a brat.
But if you ignore the tantrum and continue to ride her, softly softly catch your monkey!

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the over analysing comment, but if she were my mare, I would insisting on no tantrums and no silly beaviour.

She's got it into her head that you are soft and she doesn't have to work properly, so its time to restablish the boundaries of what is acceptable and what isn't.

No more Mr Nice Guy.

What level is she working at? Elem, medium....?

JB xx

[/ QUOTE ]

She was working at Elementary before coming out of work, but I have returned back to basics following her time off because she was so weak

I was planning on taking her out to two Prelims this weekend just to get her out and about again (she gets so stressed out in a competition warm up environment and she has not been out for a very long time) but she is more than capable of doing a late Novice test early Elementary if she would just stop these damn tantrums!

I completely agree, when it comes to this mare I over analyse but with everything she has been through, I just can't help it

I still constantly look out (or feel for) that strange step she did when she was just not quite right

I think the main issue I have is that she was never lame, she was just doing this strange step and I still remember it even though it was 12 months ago to this day

 

[Madam_max]

Totally agree. What I was trying to say, but you worded it better. Corroy has temper tantrums every now and then and mostly I ignore her, but make her work with confrontation.

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]

I would honestly ignore her and yes be tougher with her. She is prob being a madam (as they are) which is nothing to do with her injuries. I think we are all guilty of being too soft with our own horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

She was always so eager to please before the injury which is why I think I am starting to think too much when she is being a madam...

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
Seeing as you've covered every base i would just keep working her & showing her that Tantrums wont win. My horse use to like keeping me away from the right rein, once i did get a good contact & full control of the shoulder he gave up & let me ride him.
It could take a while for her to realise & take a lot of persistence on your part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spencer said the same thing... this is not going to suddenly go right in a day, it is going to need real determination, patience and also for me to be very black and white which I do find quite difficult when she is throwing a tantrum. I would say this morning is the first time I have just kept hold of the outside contact and kicked her into it with my inside leg when she threw everything at me.

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe 90% time when horses play up and throw strops its because they are in pain in some way, or we're not asking correctly and confusing them by blocking etc.
Then theres the 10% of horses who are damn right naughty and wont focus because they cant be arsed or have learnt to avoid work.

You have bascially covered every avenue with Grace ie vet, tack, back. You know shes okay now, and you have good training.

Now if she were mine, I wouldnt be putting up with the tantrums. I would probably continue to ignore and get on with it.
She sounds like shes reacting now because she knows she can, as she knows you will think something else is wrong.

Getting after a little bit might help. Im not talking getting angry or smacking her with a whip, that IMO will just make her cross and be more of a brat.
But if you ignore the tantrum and continue to ride her, softly softly catch your monkey!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you BBs... I have no experience really of a horse coming back into work following major surgery etc etc so this is all adding to me feeling a little lost to be honest

You are completely right, smacking her with a whip would just make her start fly bucking and that absolutely wrecks my back

I guess all of this is now down to me isn't it... I have to remain so firm and black and white about things, without losing the aim of the session.

The thing is, she is not a naughty or malicious horse when you are riding her, she was actually getting quite upset about the whole thing this morning (hence the reason I do not ride her in spurs or with a whip, these seem to exacerbate the whole issue). I don't know whether she genuinely believes she can't possibly do it because it was painful in the past and I have not asked her since, or whether she just knows she has got away with this sort of behaviour for some reason (I know she will not think it is because I am panicking she is going to break) and keeps on for the easier life while I allow it.

 

[Halfstep]

You are asking her to carry herself and not lean on your hands, she finds this difficult and probably still carries the memory of pain, so she chucks her toys. Its up to you to keep asking gently but firmly for her to go straight and in self carriage.

One thing that stood out for me from your first post - when she does this you relax "all contact and leg aids". I think this might be the problem. You are taking your leg off when you should be putting it on. Keep your legs firmly draped against her sides when she does this so you are always asking her to come into the contact - even if she is being stressy. Accept the contact, and then give to her. Don't give her anything to cling on to - take and give with the rein, but keep your leg on! Hot horses love to try to force us to take our legs off as then they can go crooked and ignore our seats!

. I know ALL about this LOL!

 

[BBs]

She probably does still believe she cant do it and doesnt trust you enough to say - its fine get on with it. Mainly because when she starts getting up tight you immediately think eek! somethings wrong.
She needs you to give her the confidence that shes okay now. I know since injuring my ankles and knee that I tend to protect it more. It might hurt me if I do so and so. 9 times out of 10 Im okay tho. Shes probably a bit like this.
But not getting cross but being firm and continuing to ride her, and NOT backing off (like HS says dont take your leg off her).
We all make the mistake of asking asking asking and then we get it, horse goes soft and we go all floppy - horse then goes **hang on where did they go?** Im not saying hanging off them, but horse like to feel youre their with them.
If you are 100% sure that you arent confusing everything then keep at it. I cant see how you can be confusing her if you have Spencer keeping an eye on you, so I believe you need to crack on.

My mare Bally (who RLF now has) was a spooky thing. I couldnt carry a whip with her, if i so much as tapped her she would lose the plot, only because she felt she had let me down.
It would take an further hour to restore the confidence again.

Its taken me years to have the confidence in my riding. If something didnt work within a few minutes I would give up.
Now I know my tools work so I keep at it quietly working away, making sure Im not confusing the horse and that Im not blocking.

 

[Madam_max]

Also are you still doing other stuff with her other than schooling?

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
You are asking her to carry herself and not lean on your hands, she finds this difficult and probably still carries the memory of pain, so she chucks her toys. Its up to you to keep asking gently but firmly for her to go straight and in self carriage.

One thing that stood out for me from your first post - when she does this you relax "all contact and leg aids". I think this might be the problem. You are taking your leg off when you should be putting it on. Keep your legs firmly draped against her sides when she does this so you are always asking her to come into the contact - even if she is being stressy. Accept the contact, and then give to her. Don't give her anything to cling on to - take and give with the rein, but keep your leg on! Hot horses love to try to force us to take our legs off as then they can go crooked and ignore our seats!

. I know ALL about this LOL!

[/ QUOTE ]

I did wonder whether you would read this and have a giggle...

I think this is the main cause of the problem I am having now. Up until this week I have been treating her like glass, so when she throws her toys out I have been taking off all the aids, letting her relax and then starting again. Obviously, I can now see how this has not helped the situation at all when I start to think about it logically, but at the time my brain and heart are screaming that there is still pain somewhere for her to be reacting like this. But perhaps it is just simply that there was pain, she learned how to avoid it, and that is where we are at now.

This morning I did keep my leg on... we had a few huffs and puffs and kicking out issues about this, but I did it, so at least I know I did the right thing with this even when she was really throwing herself about.

She really wants to wriggle away and because I was demanding straightness, turning through her shoulder (we were working on squares like Spencer instructed) she just didn't feel capable of coping. But she did cope, and the last 15 minutes were like riding my beautiful dressage pony again!!!

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
She probably does still believe she cant do it and doesnt trust you enough to say - its fine get on with it. Mainly because when she starts getting up tight you immediately think eek! somethings wrong.
She needs you to give her the confidence that shes okay now. I know since injuring my ankles and knee that I tend to protect it more. It might hurt me if I do so and so. 9 times out of 10 Im okay tho. Shes probably a bit like this.
But not getting cross but being firm and continuing to ride her, and NOT backing off (like HS says dont take your leg off her).
We all make the mistake of asking asking asking and then we get it, horse goes soft and we go all floppy - horse then goes **hang on where did they go?** Im not saying hanging off them, but horse like to feel youre their with them.
If you are 100% sure that you arent confusing everything then keep at it. I cant see how you can be confusing her if you have Spencer keeping an eye on you, so I believe you need to crack on.

My mare Bally (who RLF now has) was a spooky thing. I couldnt carry a whip with her, if i so much as tapped her she would lose the plot, only because she felt she had let me down.
It would take an further hour to restore the confidence again.

Its taken me years to have the confidence in my riding. If something didnt work within a few minutes I would give up.
Now I know my tools work so I keep at it quietly working away, making sure Im not confusing the horse and that Im not blocking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have hit the nail on the head... everytime she questions whether she can do it she feels me start getting panicky that something is not quite right. OK, she doesn't know what I am worrying about, but she will know there is something because she is a very sensitive little mare.

Like yours, she gets really upset if you use the whip, although she will let me carry one. I also think it is for the same reason as yours, she is wondering where she is going wrong??? I know deep down she just wants to please me, and perhaps she is getting more upset because I have been letting her down with not being clear enough in what I am asking.

Spencer said I am in for a tough few weeks, but I have not to give up... and I won't, but I do start questioning myself about things because I am not confident in my own abilities at the moment with her.

I think this morning we had a little breakthrough because she has not felt that good (the end bit especially) for a very long time. I have not had that feeling of having lightness in the contact but power from behind and her really pushing through her hocks, so I obviously did get us a little further

 

[_jetset_]

[ QUOTE ]
Also are you still doing other stuff with her other than schooling?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I have been playing with her over poles, loose schooling her and she has had a few days turnout when the field dried up a little. I cannot hack out where I am because of how she is in traffic (and it is a really bad road

) but I am hoping when I get a bit of time off I can take her over to Somerford Park.

I am struggling for time a bit at the moment because I have had to increase my working hours at the company (it is a family business) and I just seem to have so little time it is unbelievable

I leave home at 6.15am and get back at 8.15pm five days a week. I am hoping that once things settle down a bit (we are in the construction trade

) I should have a little more time

She has really lost her confidence jumping (I am wondering whether she jumped pre-op and was sore on it) but I have asked my old trainer who is an eventer whether she can start helping us out a bit so waiting to hear from her. She knows Grace and the only thing with her is that she is very sensitive around men.

 

[abb123]

To be honest, I think that the best thing that you could do for yourself is to forget about the Grace you had before the problems. After all, she has had a year to grow up in (and have some pretty rubbish things happen) and you have had an extra year of riding, lessons etc. I would like to think that a year of lessons and my riding would be different ! Perhaps your riding has improved from last year and you are now expecting more of her than last year coupled with worrying about her lameness issues then I wouldn't be at all surprised if she felt different to ride. I would try to think of her as a new horse that you have just got and focus on riding her now and not comparing her with the old Grace.

 

[charlie76]

We have a horse that had a sacroliliac injury and he was the same as your horse ( and still can be). He was treated for it and basically given the all clear but for weeks after if we asked him to ride forward more into a stronger contact and enagge his hind leg more he would throw a complete fit - he would stop dead, rear, spin and almost give you a nosebleed slamming his head up, this happened every session several times. We gave him the benefit of the doubt and were patient but he had been given the all clear so 2 weeks ago we decided to keep the contact we wanted and insist he got on and worked. To start with I had to chase him along with lots of leg so that he was really infront of the leg- if he went to stop I gave him a good kick backed up by a flick of the stick( like yours if I wallop him he would fly buck) and under no circumstances give in and allow the contact. After a few days of this he stopped with the tantrums. Now, at the slightest sign of a temper coming on we just apply a little more leg or flick him with the stick and he goes forward and accepts.
I will say, for several sessions I was DRIPPING in sweat!

 

[_jetset_]

This sounds very similar... thanks for sharing your experiences, it gives me hope!

So I just have to srick at it I guess. The physio came up tonight to check her again following her treatment two weeks ago and she said she is feeling really good so no excuses

 

[_jetset_]

I rode her again this morning with every intention of sticking to my guns and making her work into the outside rein and not accepting any nonsense.

She warmed up really nicely, probably the best she has done up until now and I really felt as though we had progressed yesterday. That was until another horse came into the indoor and she just completely lost all concentration and reverted to bouncing about on the spot, threatening to rear (but she didn't today) and leaping off the floor with all four feet in mid air

I didn't drop the contact, nor did I drop my leg aids. If anything, when she was being a real pain and refusing to go into the outside contact, I took my legs off completely, and then gave her a good kick on. OK, the result was a bit erratic and not very pretty, but it got her away from bouncing on the spot and thinking a bit more forwards.

I did this a few times, until it came to the point where I just lifted my legs off a little and she really pushed forwards

At the end her head carriage was steady, she was not leaning on my hands at all and I felt she was truly straight and working towards self carriage.

I am taking her to do two prelims tomorrow morning, but I am treating it as a complete training session. I couldn't care less what she ends up on, I just want to get her working somewhere other than home. If I can get the end result today for the tests then that will be a real accomplishment, but if not, it is no big deal as long as she keeps her head in the collecting ring.