Contact Query

[Ambers Echo]

I am experiencing what seems to be a clash of cultures and approaches around contact in a way I find confusing. So I am trying to clarify my understanding of both approaches. I am not debating which is “better”.

I’ve been taught two distinct-feeling ways of riding into contact:

Approach 1 (which I will call the Joe approach, just because he is my main trainer).
Self-carriage from the very beginning. Very light contact. The horse carries herself with a soft, consistent feel in all gaits, including on the approach to fences. Contact exists, but it is light. The horse is expected to soften to the hand without bracing, and most adjustments (collection, extension, transitions) come primarily from seat and leg rather than rein.

Approach 2 ‘leg into hand’ - secure contact.
The rider uses leg to ride the horse into a more secure, elastic contact. The horse is expected to seek and maintain that contact, and half-halts through the rein are a significant tool for balance and collection. I’ve been told many horses feel supported by this contact and can feel abandoned without it, especially in front of fences.

What I’m struggling with is understanding:

• The pros and cons of each approach
• Whether they are genuinely different systems or simply different emphases within the same biomechanics
• How best to apply them with less experienced horses, without confusing them

I’m particularly interested in hearing from people who have trained horses up the levels, eventers who cross disciplines, or instructors familiar with both styles. Any insight into how (or whether) these approaches can coexist would be really appreciated. Because the reality is Joe will be my main trainer – at least on the flat – but I want to event so I will have to go to SJ and XC clinics too and will be taught Approach 2 at those. How do I marry those 2 worlds?

Can anyone enlighten me on pros/cons or add to/correct my understanding.

TIA!

 

[Cragrat]

I am not remotely qualified to answer your questions, but I am VERY interested in what replies you get!

My natural inclination is to the Joe approach, but I have mostly been taught the leg -to- hand approach ( and been frequently told to use more of both!)

I have used both approaches with my ex-racer . The 'firmer' hand, to give him confidence into a fence, did seem to work....but.... then it didn't ( but that is possibly my poor riding). My current jumping instructor is much more of the Joe approach, so we'll see where that takes us!

 

[Ambers Echo]

It’s interesting you have a jump trainer using approach 1. Does he/she explain why they prefer that? I’ve only ever come across it in the more Western trainers though I think some classical (??) dressage is taught that way too. I’d love to find a good SJ or XC trainer who taught that way so I can have consistent advice. But haven’t found one yet! And I’m not ditching Joe. So I need to find a way to somehow use both. Or at least blend them a bit. Or get Myka so connected, round and adjustable that they don’t need to try and correct that.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm not remotely qualified either. LOL.

As far as I am aware, it's more of a Western (and some classical dressage schools) thing v. English/German/no-accurate-word-to-describe it thing. The Legetere stuff is very much based on separation of the aids and developing lightness before power. It's not that far removed from the vaquero stuff.

Obviously Hermosa goes in the hackamore, so is never on a contact.

 

[ihatework]

It’s a big question and one that I read and realised I don’t have an answer for without tying myself up in knots and confusing myself

I think I’ve simplified it down to coming down to how you are taught in earlier years, opportunity to actually really feel/understand different ways, personal preference for the feel you get, and actually fairly importantly what the horse likes. I do think it’s not an either/or situation and there is probably some sort of scale whereby intuitive riders will adapt the weighting of leg into hand to the horse.

But that’s just a brain dump that I need to muse over more.

 

[SpeedyPony]

My preference is more for the first approach. I think you have to be very careful with the second as (from what I've seen) it's all too easy to end up driving/nagging the horse forward into heavy hands. (Which I hope is not the actual aim of this particular style, but I've unfortunately had lessons from instructors who were of the opinion that a contact should be 2lbs of pressure swinging off the end of the reins )

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Not sure how qualified I am to answer but I have evented at the upper levels (4*) and now doing fairly well at pure dressage, albeit very much as an amateur in my spare time, so hear goes…

To me both approaches, if ridden correctly, are different points on a sliding scale with a similar foundation. Both should seek to establish self carriage and the idea of the horse going forward evenly on both sides from seat and leg. The difference seems to be the strength of the connection down the rein, but it has to come back end to front not front to back even in the second approach that you describe.

I do disagree that someone aiming to ride leg to hand should take a half halt through the rein, done correctly this always primarily comes from the seat, even when riding from leg to hand (although there might be some rein aid involved this should be secondary to the other aids).

The key similarity of both approaches is the self carriage - whatever discipline you do the horse has to have balance and softness through the neck. An experienced rider adopting the second approach can ‘fake’ the balance to an extent (and will probably automatically do so on a novice horse / sales horse) but to progress to any kind of level the horse needs to have autonomy of how their body moves and it is especially important when jumping that they have the freedom of head and neck to adjust and balance themselves.

So to me the key difference in the approach is the strength of the contact, not how the power is generated. Whilst the Jos of this world can control every muscle of their horses off a very light contact, in my view a slightly stronger contact gives most of us mere mortals more of a say as to what is happening in front of a fence. With eventing where fences come up quickly off turns and undulating ground, and maybe very skinny, the rider has a significant advantage over the horse of knowing what is coming up. In that scenario a horse ridden into a secure contact can be ‘funnelled’ into the correct spot, whilst still being given the freedom to position their own body to allow them to jump the fence.

I think for a horse that is used to being ridden in a stronger contact it can take them time to adjust to a lighter contact as it gives them more decision making powers coming to a fence. This is partly why so many horses take time to adapt to an amateur / junior after having been ridden by a stronger pro / adult.

I guess what I’m saying is that for where you are at the moment, the Jo approach seems to be working perfectly. You might find that as she progresses through the levels and you can inject more power from behind, containing that power through a slightly firmer contact coming to bigger and more demanding fences is necessary to maintain straightness and confidence. Also as she gets the idea that jumping is fun, she might take a firmer contact and in my view that’s fine so long as she maintains balance and softness.

That might be a bit of a ramble. Hopefully it makes sense!

 

[TheHairyOne]

I was trying to recall who i watched a jump lesson with a long time ago and finally remembered - mark smith. He was the guy behind the bitless team chase team. His way was very much NOT a firm hold into the fence. Did wonders in the lesson for a horse who would charge at them.

He made an interesting comment in one of his vids that I found (and I am paraphrasing here), but everyone is told to work the horse back to front, but 9 out of 10 instructions from some trainers are what to do with your hands. The hands are the 3rd of your aids, not the first.

I do also think the degree of contact can also be to do with what the horse actually prefers. I ride 3 regularly, all of them are different and the one who starts with no weight on the front isnt actually working lightly with connection as he is always ever so slightly tucked behind the contact, regrdless of where you are requesting he is. When he is much more correct he is still light, but its not nothing.

Will be following this with interest though as its a very good question indeed.

 

[moosea]

Ride the horse you get on the day.

Aim for Joes method, be flexable enough to use all the tools in your box!

So, imho, Joes method is what to aim for.
however if the horse is unblance, unsure, unfit and/or uneducated then you'll need a good bit of style 2 to train the horse to listen to the subtler cues from style one.

 

[smolmaus]

but I want to event so I will have to go to SJ and XC clinics too and will be taught Approach 2 at those. How do I marry those 2 worlds?

Also posting mostly to follow, as great idea for discussion!

This bit tho, is that true or can you not just say "I/ we prefer a lighter contact" ? If it ain't broke and all that. I know you say in your post that you aren't debating which is "better" but from how you've written it, I do get the feeling you prefer the way you ride with Joe. So don't marry them, let them live their own lives separately

 

[Supercalifragilistic]

Just to add, if you are going to event / SJ clinics where she is going sweetly on a very light contact and you are being told to strengthen the contact then you are at the wrong clinic! I would be surprised though if this happened with good instructors.

I would have thought you would only be told to strengthen the contact if:

1. Your reins are flapping in the breeze, and the horse seems to be able to take 100% control of speed and direction (even if they are being polite and not doing so). This wouldn’t be correct on any approach and seems unlikely from what you have posted here before about your ability etc.

2. Your reins look a bit long and something goes wrong - she starts ducking out or losing balance. Then I think it’s a legitimate response from a trainer who doesn’t know you to say shorten the reins. You will then have 2 choices, either to say actually we need to put a bit more work in at home, can we pop an easy fence then call it a day. You then go home and work through the issue taking a 100% Jo approach. Alternatively you can use the clinic to experiment if there is a half way house, maybe using a fraction more contact than you are used to.

If you go anywhere and they are calling for you to haul on her mouth coming to a fence then you are at the wrong clinic to start with and it’s time to be your horses advocate and go home.

 

[Skib]

The reason it seems complicated is that you are considering two diferent things and also assuming that the horses you ride will respond in a uniform way to those cues.

If you strip it down to basics, communication via the rein.
Rashid pointed out that the rein connects the most sensitive part of the human to the most sensitive part of the horse, human fingers to the mouth of the horse. He demonstrated that this communication was possible with a long rein, ones fingers at the buckle.

The rein is selecting the direction of the head of the horse but also its height and reach.
This positioning of the head, also controls the length of each stride as the fore legs of the horse are likely to reach forward to where its nose is.

The contact through the rein is communication, not a physical restraint and our RI compared it to cradling a tiny chick in ones cupped hands. The horse is supporting itself, not leaning on the rein and in order to get this support, it is the hind quarters that need to be active. That is why in even the earliest dressage tests, one is required to ride a give and take of the reins.

 

[TheMule]

Just to add, if you are going to event / SJ clinics where she is going sweetly on a very light contact and you are being told to strengthen the contact then you are at the wrong clinic! I would be surprised though if this happened with good instructors.

I would have thought you would only be told to strengthen the contact if:

1. Your reins are flapping in the breeze, and the horse seems to be able to take 100% control of speed and direction (even if they are being polite and not doing so). This wouldn’t be correct on any approach and seems unlikely from what you have posted here before about your ability etc.

2. Your reins look a bit long and something goes wrong - she starts ducking out or losing balance. Then I think it’s a legitimate response from a trainer who doesn’t know you to say shorten the reins. You will then have 2 choices, either to say actually we need to put a bit more work in at home, can we pop an easy fence then call it a day. You then go home and work through the issue taking a 100% Jo approach. Alternatively you can use the clinic to experiment if there is a half way house, maybe using a fraction more contact than you are used to.

If you go anywhere and they are calling for you to haul on her mouth coming to a fence then you are at the wrong clinic to start with and it’s time to be your horses advocate and go home.

I agree. If an instructor is commenting on contact coming into a fence it is likely due to a problem occurring that could be attributable to an inconsistent contact or a lack of direction from the hands.
I have been thinking about it, and I can’t remember a single instructor correcting my contact in the past 10 years or so of lessons with multiple different instructors.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks so much for the interesting contributions.

I thinik @Supercalifragilistic has toitally nailed my issue: If I were good enough at approach 1, it would never be an issue. But I am not skilled enough and Myka is not consistent enough as she is so wobbly and green. So I will need to be corrected. And the default correction is always 'shorter reins, more contact'.

I definitely plan to ride the Joe way on the flat. And so maybe the situation will resolve itself over time, but I will also want to continue her jumping education and I anticipate a loss of consistency at something newer for her even once she is consistent at home on the flat. So I need a plan for that. I don't want to just confuse her unless I am reassured that she will be ok with a 'contact gets firmer when we jump' strategy. At least for now. Equally, it's disrespectful to go to a trainer then ignore how they train!

So I think the SuperCalif response seems to be saying:

* It's ok to take a firmer hold when jumping for now. And soften as and when we can
* Work on 100% Joe way at home, including over single/simple fences.

Ie work towards approach 1 while recognising that doing this from day 1 with a newly backed horse is a level of skill probably beyond me and that'sok. I won't confuse her totally by using a firmer conact at the moment in certain contexts.

 

[LEC]

I think the discrepancy comes with jumping sometimes because we can almost ride too light with the contact. So on the flat you might be going round warming up with say a 5/10 in your hands which should still be a soft, light contact with the horse seeking it but able to have a conversation such as rebalancing, flexion etc and then we go to jumping and ride with a 2/3 which then means the hind legs sometimes are not underneath so much and the horse is more strung out. A lot of that with a green horse will be because you want them to take ownership for the fence and learn and also be able to sort out their own mistakes while you just look to be soft and giving. Plus with the interruption of a fence it's harder to be consistent and have what you would have on the flat. I have had a lot of young horses where the flat is progressing nicely with the contact I want which is a 5 and yet jumping they are not as balanced so I ride with less when actually I probably need to focus more on having it closer to the flat contact but still allowing them the freedom to jump.
I think while you are going through this process the contact can vary a lot jumping as sometimes you end up with a 6/7 contact as you are trying to correct other things like turning to a jump and keeping the hind leg into the bridle and at other times you can end up with a 2/3 when just floating round and it feels nice but it probably lacking the balance/power for bigger fence or a more technical question. I have also had it where because the balance is developing they can be a bit fussy in the contact so that's where you again tend to ride with a 2/3 but understand it's a process developing balance so eventually know you will get to the 4/5 which is where you want to be.

 

[j1ffy]

Not sure how qualified I am to answer but I have evented at the upper levels (4*) and now doing fairly well at pure dressage, albeit very much as an amateur in my spare time, so hear goes…

To me both approaches, if ridden correctly, are different points on a sliding scale with a similar foundation. Both should seek to establish self carriage and the idea of the horse going forward evenly on both sides from seat and leg. The difference seems to be the strength of the connection down the rein, but it has to come back end to front not front to back even in the second approach that you describe.

I do disagree that someone aiming to ride leg to hand should take a half halt through the rein, done correctly this always primarily comes from the seat, even when riding from leg to hand (although there might be some rein aid involved this should be secondary to the other aids).

The key similarity of both approaches is the self carriage - whatever discipline you do the horse has to have balance and softness through the neck. An experienced rider adopting the second approach can ‘fake’ the balance to an extent (and will probably automatically do so on a novice horse / sales horse) but to progress to any kind of level the horse needs to have autonomy of how their body moves and it is especially important when jumping that they have the freedom of head and neck to adjust and balance themselves.

So to me the key difference in the approach is the strength of the contact, not how the power is generated. Whilst the Jos of this world can control every muscle of their horses off a very light contact, in my view a slightly stronger contact gives most of us mere mortals more of a say as to what is happening in front of a fence. With eventing where fences come up quickly off turns and undulating ground, and maybe very skinny, the rider has a significant advantage over the horse of knowing what is coming up. In that scenario a horse ridden into a secure contact can be ‘funnelled’ into the correct spot, whilst still being given the freedom to position their own body to allow them to jump the fence.

I think for a horse that is used to being ridden in a stronger contact it can take them time to adjust to a lighter contact as it gives them more decision making powers coming to a fence. This is partly why so many horses take time to adapt to an amateur / junior after having been ridden by a stronger pro / adult.

I guess what I’m saying is that for where you are at the moment, the Jo approach seems to be working perfectly. You might find that as she progresses through the levels and you can inject more power from behind, containing that power through a slightly firmer contact coming to bigger and more demanding fences is necessary to maintain straightness and confidence. Also as she gets the idea that jumping is fun, she might take a firmer contact and in my view that’s fine so long as she maintains balance and softness.

That might be a bit of a ramble. Hopefully it makes sense!

I'm another who is interested in this thread but not sure I have the answer! I really enjoyed reading this post . I was thinking along similar lines in dressage when watching Justin Verboomen and his chestnut horse, Djembe de Hus, recently - he is able to do a beautifully accurate GP test with comparatively long reins and soft contact, which is something we all aspire to but is incredibly hard to achieve and us mere mortals (and in fact most international dressage riders) need a stronger contact to gain the level of control needed. Obviously I'm only at AM not GP and that's hard enough!

AE you are so considered and work through every potential pitfall and positive, I'm sure you will get the balance right for Myka and listen to her along the way.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks. I do probably overthink think at times!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I think there is something very horse-dependent about this too.

Some horses have better natural balance and whilst they have to learn to rebalance themselves with a rider, they are coming to that with a better handle on their own balance.

Mim doesn't struggle with balance. She's a short, square little thing with a relatively low center of gravity . She finds collection very easy and has held a frame lightly from the get go. She's gone bitless and bitted since I backed her and she hasn't struggled to adjust between them.

Miri is longer and lighter, and has a natural tendency to be weaker through the back. She goes very long and flat and then does the startled llama when she feels unbalanced - even loose in the field. I've described it as trying to hold together an overcooked strand of spaghetti. She's terribly inconsistent in contact if you don't give her something to balance on, and then she gets confused which risks sudden llama neck, and that can unbalance the rider and make the whole thing worse. But if you have kind and consistent hands on a level of contact that she can trust, then she goes so beautifully. So we are starting from the place of giving her something to balance on whilst working towards an eventual goal that she will be developed enough not to need it.

 

[ester]

Interesting thread and some great answers

 

[maya2008]

You need to focus on the horse you are riding, not other people’s philosophical approaches.

German vs French - they are the end result. In particular with the French method, a light contact with a horse in perfect muscle and balance is the result of years of work.

So what happens while you are training a horse?
This is my understanding and practice:
- We start with a loose rein and on the lead so they can figure out their balance under a rider. Once beyond basic walk/trot balance on the lead though I ask my jockeys to take up a contact. The sort of elastic contact that is the same as holding a young child’s hand when crossing the road. Then when they offer to round and drop their head, raise their backs, I ask them to put their leg on and keep the horse stepping under into that contact. We do brief periods of correct carriage followed by loose rein breaks until they can continuously move in the correct way. That contact and carriage is then the default for a good while. Even. Elastic. Present. It can tighten to say ‘no’ or to reassure. It can loosen to reward. It can disappear for a stretch. But overall it is there.
Why?
- correct carriage builds correct muscles that benefit the horse;
- an elastic contact catches spooks so they go a few steps not half a mile down the road;
- contact is security in the scary new world, a reminder the rider is there and in control and looking after them;
- contact is communication: step here, look there, do this, stretch out, bunch up, direct your energy thus, steady up.

My kids produce basic novice proof ponies so they pretty much stop there. Even elastic contact that can tighten or loosen depending on the need.

I school beyond that for myself. My contact once beyond the baby pony stage changes and adapts to the moment and the horse’s stage of schooling.
Example: little cob.
- Arrived stressed and running on the forehand, spooking at everything, very little muscle. I popped her in a contact straight away and in an outline progressively to correct her balance and reduce her panic. I spent over a year literally holding her together with hand and leg and body weight to help her learn to change her movement - from driving trotter to riding horse. We rode like that in the arena, out hacking, everywhere. Consistent elastic contact as with the young ones - both in hand and leg.
- First inkling of self carriage came last winter in trot. She began to step more confidently off my inside leg on turns and my inside hand lightened. We had snippets of wonderful light work here and there.
- At the end of last summer she changed completely. Finally the muscles had built enough and the understanding had set. One day I realised I wasn’t needing to hold her in canter, she was doing it all by herself in perfect balance. I rather stupidly relaxed and enjoyed it - then got thrown backwards when she spooked because it felt to her like Mum had stopped holding her hand . She got used to it though and I can now go for a whole hack carefree with one hand on the reins and the other on whoever I am leading. Pony stays in good balance regardless.
- Next summer when I can school again, we will up the lateral work and aim to add some collection to our self carriage. I would expect our contact to change continuously - firmer when she needs help and lighter when she’s got it.

Contact is a continuously changing and adjusting thing beyond basic novice horse/pony. It adapts to the situation. It is communication.

 

[Ambers Echo]

You need to focus on the horse you are riding, not other people’s philosophical approaches.

I am. This is not an intellectual exercise. I am riding Myka daily and want to have clarity over what I am asking from her and why.

German vs French - they are the end result. In particular with the French method, a light contact with a horse in perfect muscle and balance is the result of years of work.

I don't think we are talking about an end result but 2 styles both applicable from day 1. They may end up in the same place but the routes to that place are different.

From the rest of your message I think you are describing moment by moment/ horse appropriate variations within the overall 'leg into secure elastic contact' approach. Ie approach 2. Thanks for explaining the benefits of this, and how you are using it in practice. I am keen to undertsand the 2 styles better so I can make informed decisions, particualry as I agree with @LadyGascoyne 's view that some horses might prefer one or the other so I want an understanding of and skills in both ideally.

Though as I am not really skilled enough in either yet, perhaps I need to pick a lane!

 

[maya2008]

I am. This is not an intellectual exercise. I am riding Myka daily and want to have clarity over what I am asking from her and why.


I don't think we are talking about an end result but 2 styles both applicable from day 1. They may end up in the same place but the routes to that place are different.

From the rest of your message I think you are describing moment by moment/ horse appropriate variations within the overall 'leg into secure elastic contact' approach. Ie approach 2. Thanks for explaining the benefits of this, and how you are using it in practice. I am keen to undertsand the 2 styles better so I can make informed decisions, particualry as I agree with @LadyGascoyne 's view that some horses might prefer one or the other so I want an understanding of and skills in both ideally.

Though as I am not really skilled enough in either yet, perhaps I need to pick a lane!

The ‘focus on the horse’ bit. It is too instinctive to me after all this time so I’m rubbish at describing it. Let me try again.

So you’re on your horse and you are walking along. You pick up the reins. How much? How heavy a contact? Well you pick them up to the elastic contact and then you play with that. Is it too light for that horse in that situation - is their head coming up? Are they looking around? Are they tense? How does their body feel? If you put your leg on do they come into your hand? And then you adjust. Close your fingers. Better? Worse? Lighten them. What does that do? Find the sweet spot for that horse at that moment.

And then on endless repeat. Always assume it’s you. Always adjust yourself. In one moment, in one exercise they might need you to close your outside hand and support them, in another to loosen. But mostly, the hand catches what the body produces so if my contact becomes heavy I put my leg on and use my body to help my horse to sit up - or maybe she is tired and needs a rest, or…

‘Ride every stride’ to adjust yourself and them. Sometimes you create a frame and pop them in it. Sometimes you do half an hour or lateral work and circles and that does the job.

A friend asked me last winter, when schooling a horse who kept running off, ‘What are you doing?’ I said I was activating the quarters and sorting out her balance. Friend was completely confused. Horse stopped running though, once she had figured out she had hindquarters and how to use them. THEN she was light in my hand. THEN she stopped on a dime. But that came from plenty of exercises and hard work.

If you handed me a hypermobile warm blood I would park it in a frame and ride into that because I know from experience that’s the only way. Anything else, I prefer to help them develop balance and carriage through time and balance and a contact that leaves my very fragile finger joints intact.

Does any of that make sense? I’m sadly much better at doing this stuff than explaining it! (To me, schooling is this alternate reality where there is just you and the horse and the constant adjustments to improve how they are going. It’s like proper zen magic!).

 

[palo1]

I suspect...but don't know, that ideally you/we would always work to create the balanced, responsive horse that contact no.1 supports, before jump training and only develop jumping when the no 1 contact is consistent over poles, small obstacles etc. The strength, balance and confidence of the horse to go forwards but to carry us correctly is the best safety for us and them I understand. I have been taught that the bit and reins belong to the horse and even with a young, badly schooled horse (my own & my own fault) you can train a no 1 contact for jumping but that still requires compromise as the horse prepares for take off and after landing...and speed is not so easily achieved - that requires a much longer frame though still possible to be in balance and with a light contact, as long as the rider's position allows for that and the horse is solidly trained not to fall on the forehand. I know a stronger contact doesn't necessarily solve that but it can certainly discourage a horse from leaning/being on the forehand.

But I am not planning to compete or train to event or showjump. Galloping at solid obstacles requires many different skills and to do that only with the horse always light, in balance and without a stronger contact is both alien to our equestrian culture and teaching, and for many of us, apparantly impossible. Being able to adjust for showjumping should be easier but I don't think it is tbh!!

Once a horse is stretched in a gallop the biomechanics are very different too. For me that all feels pretty complicated!

 

[scats]

My first thought was that it’s very horse dependent. I’ve had some horses that prefer a stronger contact and will actively seek to find the contact and take it forwards. Others prefer a lighter, ‘barely there’ feel.
I think you have to be careful with the latter with a horse who could be prone to sitting a little behind the contact, yet fooling you into thinking they are ‘there’ when they aren’t truly through.

I have one who will sit in a fabulous ‘shape’ with the lightest contact, and she’ll trundle about all day like that, doing whatever you ask, but she’s completely disconnected. She needs to be ridden with a firmer contact and a little more drive into it, initially at least.

So I’m going to say that a lot of it is horse dependent.

 

[Hackback]

This is a really interesting discussion about a question I have pondered also ever since having Joe as my trainer. Before Joe, I was always taught 'leg to hand'.

I went to one of his joint demos with Sophie (paralympion dressage rider) and was surprised that she leaned more towards the Joe way. I was telling my physio about it afterwards and she got really wound up about people who try to 'hold their horse in and kick it on at the same time' - she said how is the horse supposed to move forward freely if it's being held back at the same time.

Maybe it's all in the interpretation - reading some of the answers on here it seems 'contact' is being used for support not pulling. And of course we were discussing dressage not jumping. But maybe the finesse of contact isn't always communicated properly to the rider?

Also Joe can ride without any contact, in fact without any reins at all. He can control speed and direction from seat and leg aids. Would that work for jumping though

ETA I am also very conflicted. I've been to showing clinics with an instructor I like a lot and who has a lot of success with her students. She gets me to increase the contact and play with the bit (another Joe no-no) to get AJ into a better shape and it really works. But it's not what I'm working towards in my Joe lessons. I just want to be a cowgirl I think.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes there are people jumping brideless now. Joe went to a demo where the rider was jumping bridless in the dark. The jumps were lit up and the horse and rider were lit up so the audience could see. He said it looked pretty amazing and showed what was possible with no bridle at all. Joe rides Remy bridleless to check out his control. Like I do liberty to check connnection. It's not something explicitly trained as a trick

 

[maya2008]

Also Joe can ride without any contact, in fact without any reins at all. He can control speed and direction from seat and leg aids. Would that work for jumping though

ETA I am also very conflicted. I've been to showing clinics with an instructor I like a lot and who has a lot of success with her students. She gets me to increase the contact and play with the bit (another Joe no-no) to get AJ into a better shape and it really works. But it's not what I'm working towards in my Joe lessons. I just want to be a cowgirl I think.

When I was in my early twenties, riding and jumping bridleless was a thing. I did it with both my original ponies - have some grainy photos taken on an ancient phone somewhere! Lots of people did it then. Essentially, all you need is a ‘finished’ horse - one for whom reins are about flexion and finesse only, where the rest comes from leg and seat.

 

[TheMule]

I was thinking about this more whilst riding earlier and really trying to analyze the feeling I have, which is essentially very light, but the pressure on the bit changes all the time because you're asking for flexions, bend, changing the position of the head as you change the balance etc. I would call my 'straight line, everything is fine' contact about a 2 out of 10, but that goes up when I'm aiding something- initially just a notch, but if there isn’t an immediate response or any resistance than it can go up to a 6 or 7 out of 10 briefly to then soften back to normal. I also regularly give my hands so take it to 0, to check self-carriage.
I do know that my preference is for a light contact, but light shouldn’t mean nothing or you lose an important communication channel with the horse IMO (people riding bridleless with just a neck rope for instance often use quite a lot of pressure on that rope, so it's still communication, just in a different way)

 

[Ambers Echo]

I am really appreciating the thoughtful interesting replies! Clearly contact is a tricky area! I’ve always felt I have quite poor hands. I really really want to change that.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I am really appreciating the thoughtful interesting replies! Clearly contact is a tricky area! I’ve always felt I have quite poor hands. I really really want to change that.

How is your core strength? My hands improve when my core is stable enough for me to be able to let my shoulders and elbows move with the horse without it affecting my stability and my seat. For me, I always think about the concept of carrying my hands because the softness doesn't come from the hand but from the way my arms support my hands to move with the horse. I have no idea how much sense any of that makes.