Contact/speed problems!

[sychnant]

My lovely mare is around 12 and I've had her for not quite a year.

She doesn't like any form of contact on the bit. Apparently never has. I have a French Link Fulmer with sweet iron mouthpiece and copper link, and she seems "best" in this.

She wears a running martingale as when she's whizzed up her ears go up my nose!

She will hack out quietly in walk, and is starting to let me keep a feel on the reins now without immediately pulling her head down. I can also put my leg on gently without the head coming up and trotting/jogging immediately being offered!

I think she's been yanked in the past so am being as careful as I can to ride gently.

When we try trot on a hack she is sometimes good, but more often she goes into trot but without really going forwards. If I ask for more forwards she shoots off in a panic. I can usually slow her by rising more slowly, but she seems to get herself in a knot and can't cope. If I go sitting and talk to her she will come back to a calm walk.

She hates the round pen and will try to fly round at speed if I take her in there. Loose, she is okay. Lunging, panic. Lunging with double reins is not an option as she spins round and hogties herself

Sorry if this is all a bit unclear, I am trying to get everything down! I'm reasonably experienced, she doesn't scare me at all. I expected that she would have relaxed by now!

Her saddle fits, and her back and teeth have been done. Not keen to book an instructor as she is definitely worse on a surface.

Long shot I know, but does anyone have any other ideas on how to get her relaxed and going forwards without panicking?

Thanks for reading!

 

[nato]

I think you need to go back to basics with her. Lots of groundwork, and I would also try long reining. Lunging takes such patience - I have a horse that will turn in on top of me at any given opportunity, so it takes a good 20 minutes just to get her to transition to walk and not turn in! I would focus on lots of transitions in the trot if you have the patience for it - it will pay off in the end.

How is she with poles? Just thinking that it could be a good way to slow her down (as she has to respect them and lift up over them) while allowing you to put your leg on.

Have you hacked out with another horse that you can safely ride behind? She might learn to feel safer when out with another horse, again allowing you to put your leg gently on her while using the horse as a 'wall' so to speak.

How is she if you lunge without a bridle? Just a cavesson and lunge line?

 

[sychnant]

I think you need to go back to basics with her. Lots of groundwork, and I would also try long reining. Lunging takes such patience - I have a horse that will turn in on top of me at any given opportunity, so it takes a good 20 minutes just to get her to transition to walk and not turn in! I would focus on lots of transitions in the trot if you have the patience for it - it will pay off in the end.

She won't long rein - she panics with the ropes touching her. This is something I haven't done a lot of, so am not completely confident to try and work through her fear.

Lunging she is okay once she has had her initial few minutes of tearing round in a mad trot! Once calmer she works pretty well with loose side reins on and will start to stretch into them. But she hates it and I don't want to make her do it too much as it frustrates her. I'd rather try something else, preferably on a hack, as I want to keep her head relaxed as well as her body! If that makes sense

How is she with poles? Just thinking that it could be a good way to slow her down (as she has to respect them and lift up over them) while allowing you to put your leg on.

Haven't tried poles as she is a point and shoot type of jumper. All has to be done at speed. If she was calmer in the round pen I would try, but I'm pretty sure this will jazz her up more. She's very like my old horse in this respect!

Have you hacked out with another horse that you can safely ride behind? She might learn to feel safer when out with another horse, again allowing you to put your leg gently on her while using the horse as a 'wall' so to speak.

This would be great, except I have no one to ride with. My little cob would be perfect for her to go out with as he is Mr. Chill! But the only people who want to ride are not people I would want on him...

How is she if you lunge without a bridle? Just a cavesson and lunge line?

Fine. Calm and sensible. It does seem to be the bit that makes her panic, whether ridden or on the ground.

 

[wench]

Try her Bitless?

 

[smja]

Have you tried riding her in a bitless bridle?

ETA sorry, cross posted!

 

[gingerlegs]

Fine. Calm and sensible. It does seem to be the bit that makes her panic, whether ridden or on the ground.

Have you tried her in a hackamore? my mare is very oversensitive to the bit, can't use any type of metal bit anymore only rubber and goes nicely in a hackamore.

I would perhaps be considering a German hackamore (stronger than an English but doesn't have to be used as a 'strong' control) and if she settles working to introduce a rubber snaffle with the hackamore. I would start with no reins on the snaffle until she settles to having something in her mouth and then slowly dropping the hackamore and picking up the snaffle. Over weeks or months if necessary!

 

[sychnant]

Bitless has been considered - I have a hackamore which I could try, although then I'll need to buy her a new bridle as she's currently in a Micklem which the hackamore won't fit on. Typically

However, I would like to get her comfortable in a bit if I can, as I was hoping to do some baby dressage next year.

I just need her to believe that I'm not going to jab her in the mouth. I've been really careful not to, and she's pretty intelligent, so I hoped it would have got through to her by now. Lucky I love her really!

I'll try the hackamore at the end of the week, when I have someone to come out with me in case of issues (On a bike, not capable of riding the cob unfortunately...)

 

[sychnant]

Thanks Gingerlegs, if she's happy in the hackamore that's a great idea about introucing the bit again slowly!

 

[Wheels]

Poor mare sounds very stressy!!

Gingerlegs comes with a good suggestion - personally I'm not sure I would go for the german hackamore specifically as it is quite severe but I would figure out some kind of bitless bridle in conjunction with a bit.

I would be doing more to educate the horse to the bit on the ground too - basically re-bitting, starting with the horse just wearing the bridle, working up to some flexions on the ground and then to in-hand work before trying to ride.

I would be enlisting the help of an instructor too - if she is worse on a surface (you don't really say in what way she is worse or why she is worse) then the instructor can help you.

In this case I'd be thinking along the lines of classical instructor or someone like an Intelligent Horsemanship RA - some of them teach riding and groundwork including long reining so may be of additional help that way but whoever I chose they would have some classical knowledge in how to train a horse to really accept the bit

 

[sychnant]

Poor mare sounds very stressy!!

Gingerlegs comes with a good suggestion - personally I'm not sure I would go for the german hackamore specifically as it is quite severe but I would figure out some kind of bitless bridle in conjunction with a bit.

I would be doing more to educate the horse to the bit on the ground too - basically re-bitting, starting with the horse just wearing the bridle, working up to some flexions on the ground and then to in-hand work before trying to ride.

I would be enlisting the help of an instructor too - if she is worse on a surface (you don't really say in what way she is worse or why she is worse) then the instructor can help you.

In this case I'd be thinking along the lines of classical instructor or someone like an Intelligent Horsemanship RA - some of them teach riding and groundwork including long reining so may be of additional help that way but whoever I chose they would have some classical knowledge in how to train a horse to really accept the bit

She is a typical chestnut mare, so very stressy and sensitive bless her.

Flexions and in-hand work are a great idea too. I'll start that this evening

Whe I say "worse" on a surface - I mean that she will hack fine in walk on a baby contact. Trot is hit and miss. In the round pen her instant reaction is "flight" if she is wearing anything more that a headcollar.

I'm a bit out in the sticks here - Wales/Shropshire borders, but if anyone can suggest a good classical instructor that would be great

 

[nato]

Outside of tack - if she is very stressy you could try a Magnesium supplement. I find with mares especially this works with stressy horses

ETA - have you had someone (if you're experienced yourself then sorry if I am suggesting things you have already tried!) look at how the bit sits in her mouth? i.e. is it putting pressure on the bars, or does she have a low palate? She just might have a setup that's a little unique and a different bit might be best.

You could try talking to The Bit Bank to chat about trying some of the Neue Scheule bits? I have heard of people having great success with those. Expensive but worth it!

 

[gingerlegs]

Gingerlegs comes with a good suggestion - personally I'm not sure I would go for the german hackamore specifically as it is quite severe but I would figure out some kind of bitless bridle in conjunction with a bit.

Sorry should have said, the reason I would recommend a German Hackamore is because you can introduce a bit with less interference than other bitless options. It is only 'severe' in the wrong hands or fitted incorrectly, and you can soften the effects with a large amount of fluff, loosening the curb chain and adding a curb guard.
My mare has a big bit of fluff on her nose, which also aids with her keeping her head down and ears out of my nose

 

[Wheels]

Yes understood

But I was thinking more along the lines of a dually halter or one of those lunging cavessons that can also be ridden in.

 

[Firewell]

I haven't read all the replies but in regards to the martingale try a standing. That way when she chucks her head up the martingale will put pressure on her nose not her mouth.

I had a sensitive mare. Not sure if it's the same thing but she would chuck her head in the air then throw it down and snatch the reins then jog/canter off. Then I would check her to get her back and then she would chuck her head, put it down, snatch the rein and go ect ect.

She actually had a really really light mouth. She suited a hollowmouth chunky eggbut snaffle best. It also turned out she needed more contact not less as security. I had to be really firm, quiet, still and consistent with my contact. It was an amazing new dressage lady that turned us around.

She was a lovely mare , I miss her.

 

[Enfys]

Can a Micklem not be used without a bit?

Looking at the pictures, and I have never seen one in real life so I don't know for sure, it looks as if it would just act as a basic side pull.

I have just got an extremely hot mare that can rarely bring herself to walk at all, she is just getting the hang of walking when I drop the reins and rest my hands on her neck, pick them up and we're off again. Not that I mind, she's bred to go fast.

 

[Barnacle]

It sounds to me like you've tried some of the right things (lunging, round penning, groundwork etc) but have given up far too soon. I strongly advise you get someone experienced to show you how to do these things so you get a feel for how long it takes and see that it can be done. A lot of horses act panicked to start with but I promise you none of them continue to be that way if you keep with it.

 

[Kat]

Poor girl sounds very confused. I think it sounds as though she was never properly started and would benefit from starting from scratch with ground work, getting her used to long lines so you can long rein and lunge and then riding once she is going calmly and understands the bit.

I would get someone experienced in breaking and starting youngsters to help.

 

[smja]

You can even use a properly fitting headcollar and a pair of leadropes if you want, no need to buy a new bridle/bit/hackamore or anything

 

[JillA]

She is a typical chestnut mare, so very stressy and sensitive bless her.

Sounds to me as though the mare has never been educated as to her mouth, and you can do that easily enough. Try some in hand work at halt - you can stand either at the side or in front of her. Hold the bit in her mouth gently at the sort of position it would be if you were in the saddle, with slight upwards pressure. Keep a steady but light contact and wait. If she throws her head around try and stay with her, that is her trying to find a release. The INSTANT she even thinks about dropping her head and accepting the contact - release. Do it over and over until she has learned that the release comes from a submissive relaxing of the jaw.

Emma Bailey (Enlightened Equitation L1) comes to Telford, depending on where you are she might fit you in, or Ann-Marie Marek (Intelligent Horsemanship RA) covers mid Wales...not classical trained but will help you get to where you want to be.

 

[sychnant]

Outside of tack - if she is very stressy you could try a Magnesium supplement. I find with mares especially this works with stressy horses

ETA - have you had someone (if you're experienced yourself then sorry if I am suggesting things you have already tried!) look at how the bit sits in her mouth? i.e. is it putting pressure on the bars, or does she have a low palate? She just might have a setup that's a little unique and a different bit might be best.

You could try talking to The Bit Bank to chat about trying some of the Neue Scheule bits? I have heard of people having great success with those. Expensive but worth it!

She's on Thunderbrook feeds which has magnesium added, and has been calmer in the stable since we started feeding it I'm happy with how the bit sits - there was nothing unusual found in her mouth conformation when her teeth were done - she just doesn't like the bit...

Sorry should have said, the reason I would recommend a German Hackamore is because you can introduce a bit with less interference than other bitless options. It is only 'severe' in the wrong hands or fitted incorrectly, and you can soften the effects with a large amount of fluff, loosening the curb chain and adding a curb guard.
My mare has a big bit of fluff on her nose, which also aids with her keeping her head down and ears out of my nose

Yes understood

But I was thinking more along the lines of a dually halter or one of those lunging cavessons that can also be ridden in.

I have a Dually so may try that. I'm also looking at sidepull bridles - any recommendations?

I haven't read all the replies but in regards to the martingale try a standing. That way when she chucks her head up the martingale will put pressure on her nose not her mouth.

I had a sensitive mare. Not sure if it's the same thing but she would chuck her head in the air then throw it down and snatch the reins then jog/canter off. Then I would check her to get her back and then she would chuck her head, put it down, snatch the rein and go ect ect.

She actually had a really really light mouth. She suited a hollowmouth chunky eggbut snaffle best. It also turned out she needed more contact not less as security. I had to be really firm, quiet, still and consistent with my contact. It was an amazing new dressage lady that turned us around.

She was a lovely mare , I miss her.

She sounds a lot like mine! Great idea about the standing martingale, something else to try

Can a Micklem not be used without a bit?

Looking at the pictures, and I have never seen one in real life so I don't know for sure, it looks as if it would just act as a basic side pull.

I have just got an extremely hot mare that can rarely bring herself to walk at all, she is just getting the hang of walking when I drop the reins and rest my hands on her neck, pick them up and we're off again. Not that I mind, she's bred to go fast.

Unfortunately I bought the competition Micklem, which doesn't have the straps for bitless. Typical. lol

This mare is a bit like that - she'll walk for ever with no contact, and will sometimes trot calmly, but it seems the higher the pace, the higher the adrenalin/expectation of a jab in the gob

It sounds to me like you've tried some of the right things (lunging, round penning, groundwork etc) but have given up far too soon. I strongly advise you get someone experienced to show you how to do these things so you get a feel for how long it takes and see that it can be done. A lot of horses act panicked to start with but I promise you none of them continue to be that way if you keep with it.

I've been at it for almost a year now She'll join up brilliantly (yes, I've been shown how to do this by a qualified friend) and I promise I do know how to lunge - but honestly she finds it so stressful, I don't want to make her do it too often. After the initial blast round she can lunge beautifully, but next time you head to the round pen she will drag her feet then bronc. I really think perhaps she was started and brought on a bit fast :/

Poor girl sounds very confused. I think it sounds as though she was never properly started and would benefit from starting from scratch with ground work, getting her used to long lines so you can long rein and lunge and then riding once she is going calmly and understands the bit.

I would get someone experienced in breaking and starting youngsters to help.

I agree with this. However I don't want to send her away so need to see if I can find someone to come out.

You can even use a properly fitting headcollar and a pair of leadropes if you want, no need to buy a new bridle/bit/hackamore or anything

But it's a really good reason to buy more stuff... I NEEED it...

She is a typical chestnut mare, so very stressy and sensitive bless her.

Sounds to me as though the mare has never been educated as to her mouth, and you can do that easily enough. Try some in hand work at halt - you can stand either at the side or in front of her. Hold the bit in her mouth gently at the sort of position it would be if you were in the saddle, with slight upwards pressure. Keep a steady but light contact and wait. If she throws her head around try and stay with her, that is her trying to find a release. The INSTANT she even thinks about dropping her head and accepting the contact - release. Do it over and over until she has learned that the release comes from a submissive relaxing of the jaw.

Emma Bailey (Enlightened Equitation L1) comes to Telford, depending on where you are she might fit you in, or Ann-Marie Marek (Intelligent Horsemanship RA) covers mid Wales...not classical trained but will help you get to where you want to be.

Thankyou Jill, this is great. I'm about 12 miles west of Oswestry, so a bit out in the sticks! I'll try the exercise you suggested tomorrow.

Thanks so much everyone, hopefully I can start to help her understand what's being asked of her without resorting to gadgets (she was in a Market Harborough when I saw her at the dealer's yard, I can see why, but honestly don't think it helped her...)

 

[sychnant]

Just a little update if anyone is interested!

I tried JillA's method for getting her used to contact from the ground - she wasn't bothered in the slightest and so as she didn't react, I couldn't reward her with release for doing the right thing. We tried walking, with me by her shoulder holding the reins as you would when riding - no problem. No fussing at all.

We have done lots more groundwork and she understands pressure and release using a Dually. She concentrates really hard and really wants to please.

We have been working on steadiness and voice control on the lunge, just using a headcollar and line, and she will now willingly walk out there, and walk calmly round until I ask for trot. Trot is getting much more relaxed, and "whoa" is actually starting to mean something to her.

Now I've stopped bitting her at all she seems much more willing to try what's asked of her, to the point that yesterday I was able to open her mouth and have a really good look without her panicking. And in the corners of her mouth I found some very small scars, which I've never been able to look closely enough to see before.

So the dressage career is off the table (the Gypsy Cob has taken over that ambition anyway!) and I feel that now she's more chilled and trusts me more, the time is right to try her in a hackamore. I have one, but unfortunately at some point one of the sides has been bent, so I'll order a new one tomorrow.

Hopefully this is what she needs! I certainly feel like we've turned a corner and I've started to understand what she's telling me.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I would also do allot of ground work, make up 'scary sticks' i have bamboo sticks with a feather dust, plastic bag and other bits and pieces on them. They helped desensitising my wb mare about things touching her and have helped a few horses since then too. I start with the least scary one and once I can run it all over their body, tap them on the body with it and wave it round like a loon and the horse is standing still to bothered then I move up a scary stick.

 

[JillA]

Good for you - if you want to do something that involves a bit, just do the re-educating thing from the ground, and then bear in mind that with a rider the weight is so much more on the forehand (until you have got her stronger and more engaged) so she will lean on the bit. And that's when someone has tried to yank her head up by the sound of it. Re-educate her mouth in hand and then re-educate her mouth under saddle, by as light a contact as you can.

 

[sychnant]

I would also do allot of ground work, make up 'scary sticks' i have bamboo sticks with a feather dust, plastic bag and other bits and pieces on them. They helped desensitising my wb mare about things touching her and have helped a few horses since then too. I start with the least scary one and once I can run it all over their body, tap them on the body with it and wave it round like a loon and the horse is standing still to bothered then I move up a scary stick.

Thanks SC, great idea. I never use a lunge whip with this mare as slowing down is the problem, and I just KNOW that she would run if I even held one without it going anywhere near her. But I do think this fear is something she needs to deal with. I may start with an extendable feather duster so I can stay by her head - she turns to me very quickly for reassurance so I think we'll start with this and work towards being able to do it from a step away, then 2... She's very intelligent and tries hard to please when she's not panicking, and hopefully this will help her to understand that not everything is out to hurt her.

Good for you - if you want to do something that involves a bit, just do the re-educating thing from the ground, and then bear in mind that with a rider the weight is so much more on the forehand (until you have got her stronger and more engaged) so she will lean on the bit. And that's when someone has tried to yank her head up by the sound of it. Re-educate her mouth in hand and then re-educate her mouth under saddle, by as light a contact as you can.

Thanks Jill She's so like my old mare in almost all ways, except Yan would lean and snatch then increase the pace dramatically. This girl is so much more sensitive that I don't think it would have taken a lot to persuade her that the bit is a BAD thing I'd love her to be a dressage pony, but I would love much more for her to be relaxed and happy, so if a hackamore is the answer for her then HC dressage it will be! Or possibly jumping, as I think that's really more her idea of fun! I just need to know I can stop before we try anything that involves more excitement!