Continue with barefoot or try shoes and pads??? Advice please!

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Becks01

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I suspect this post will attract a lively debate, but I am grabbling with continuing barefoot, or giving up and putting natural balance with pads on the fronts… We are nearly a year barefoot, and have never really got far beyond the transition stage….he’s ok in the menege but needs boots and pads for anything else. Even walking on the gravelly bits into the stable provokes a reaction.

My research has led me to think that the sensitivity is a result of inflammation, and that the shoes and pads only cover the symptoms, not address the cause. I have addressed his diet wholeheartedly in terms of sugar and supplements; and in husbandry (so far as is practical on the yard we’re at) but I’m not seeing the improvement that I would expect. His feet themselves look fantastic, so strong, wide padded frogs, good exfoliation etc… but the footiness just does not go away. He appears to be extremely susceptible to hard ground and concussion as well.

Conventional wisdom would say that pads would help with this…but again my own research would say that metal shoes increase the concussive forces through the joints… The whole reason I took him barefoot was that he was becoming more and more sore in shoes with palmer foot pain and I wanted to treat him holistically. However I am aware that the research and articles I read are very barefoot biast. He has been off for the whole summer for lameness related to his sesamoid/fetlock, and he appears to have some hind leg lameness as well – so there’s lots going on with him overall. I also have limited access to a variety of surfaces to work him on (mainly arena and the paddocks) and am aware that he’s only ever going to grow the feet he needs. I’ve have him 18 months and he’s been on/off lame the whole time. I just desperately want a sound horse!

His physiotherapist has recommended pads and shoes, and vet mentioned it too. I have been resisting, but now wondering if I’m sticking my heels in too much and just need to accept defeat… Any views really welcome!!!!

(sorry for long post!)
 
I wouldn't - why can't you keep up the boots? Transition from them - try with harder and harder pads and even without pads, my horse is at that stage just to cross the road planings on the yard. And occasionally walk without them on the harder surfaces to stimulate sole growth.
Have you used Keratex or similar sole hardener, and something like Silverfeet in case there is any bacterial infection?
 
I'd wonder if he had something metabolic going on, does he have good concavity?
Who does the hoofcare atm?
Do you do roadwork? It isn't clear from your post.
if not I would probably shoe, though not necessarily natural balance, I would look into the options for that.
How gravelly are the gravelly bits? Mine is well transitioned but is not what I would describe as rock crunching and will take a gimpy step, particularly at stone on a hard base, though the pressure is then significant I would worry if he didn't really.
Is rockley an option for you?
 
If you're a year in and have done all that's possible in terms of diet/environment, I think it's time to give up on the idea of having a completely barefoot riding horse.

But that doesn't mean you have to shoe, necessarily. You could simply boot him for all riding, period. If concussion is a problem in particular, and sole sensitivity, then I would think that padded boots would potentially provide as much if not more comfort than shoes with pads. But I would forget about trying to "condition" him bare on tough surfaces - if he's not comfortable, it will only lead to tension in the body.

I guess the question then comes down to whether he is comfortable enough when not ridden (turnout, moving between field and stable) to be left bare, and whether your booting solution is working well enough that he is fully comfortable and that you can live with booting in the long-term (not too much faff).
If his hooves are now in a good state, a set of shoes (or two) isn't likely to set you back drastically either (though that depends a bit on how much hoof the farrier takes off). So if you are not sure if he is moving completely comfortable booted under saddle, and bare in the field then maybe a month-long trial run in shoes would help to clarify if they offer significant additional comfort or not.

My gelding never managed to get comfortable enough to cope with our hacking either. After about a year of trying, I decided to stop the guess-work and just always put on boots, and that worked very well for us.
 
ester said:
I'd wonder if he had something metabolic going on, does he have good concavity?
Who does the hoofcare atm?
Do you do roadwork? It isn't clear from your post.
if not I would probably shoe, though not necessarily natural balance, I would look into the options for that.
How gravelly are the gravelly bits? Mine is well transitioned but is not what I would describe as rock crunching and will take a gimpy step, particularly at stone on a hard base, though the pressure is then significant I would worry if he didn't really.
Is rockley an option for you?
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Hello! ...I have wondered time and time again about something metabolic...and having had a cushings pony before am a little paranoid about it...but been dismissed by Vets both times I've asked them to take test... I think I need to put my big girl pants on and say just test my horse!!!

He's been off work for nearly 6 months due to his fetlock injury - he did do roadwork, but only in padded boots.

Rockley only an option if covered by insurance, but I do wonder if Rockley is only really good for when they are there i.e. hard to keep the same feet growing if you return them back to the same place and routine they were on before.

I don't know much about shoes to be honest - are there better ones than natural balance?
 
I'd want to test before making a decision on how to proceed.
Rockley gives them a head start IMO and might show you how good he can get at least, and if that isn't great you'd know it wasn't worth persuing. There is an issue with regards to transitioning home and certainly not all become rock crunching.

Part of my question re roadwork was trying to understand exactly which surfaces he is struggling on, and what environments he has been put in to improve them, obviously movement is also pretty key and that might well be holding you back so that although you are at the 12 month point, realistically you are only at the 6 month point. Would he cope with 5 mins in hand road walking or not?

Shoe wise, NB aren't that popular and deemed a bit of a fad by many pros, I have seen more arguments against than fore. We had a long thread on here about plastic shoes the other week too some of which might be better.

Is he farrier or trimmer trimmed?
 
ester said:
Part of my question re roadwork was trying to understand exactly which surfaces he is struggling on, and what environments he has been put in to improve them, obviously movement is also pretty key and that might well be holding you back so that although you are at the 12 month point, realistically you are only at the 6 month point. Would he cope with 5 mins in hand road walking or not?
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Hi. For my twopenneth'orth, this.

Having rehabbed a lame one to barefoot and been oh, so many times on the cusp of giving up for it all to suddenly fall into place I can categorically state that she would not be where she is now - sound, sound in boots, and so nearly but not quite rock crunching, 6 months in - if we hadn't trudged for miles and miles and miles in hand. We could only walk in hand at first, she wasn't sound but I absolutely knew that if the feet were to grow to support the mechanical issues, we needed movement.

We walked in-hand for 3 months. At the end of that three months we were walking 3 miles on tarmac per day. She was still footy on the gravel and stone and shale. Very. But she was finally sound in the school. I made the mistake of thinking that if she could walk three miles on the tarmac, she could be ridden the same on it. BIG. HUGE mistake. My weight for that distance put her back and she was very footy again. Lesson learned - hack with boots. And boots on the back, too, because her back feet still hurt her. Rockley horses do miles and miles of roadwork - even the lame ones are walked out.

It was only after I started to vary our in-hand route to take in a shingle road, a stony track, and a bumpy pathway did she really start to look good. Suddenly the heel first was very noticeable, not just in the school. Those different surfaces are key, they really are. We still boot up for longer hacks but she's sound as a pound in the school and I've just started to do unbooted roadwork with her. I still walk her in-hand, every morning. Roadwork one day and bumpy tracks the next.

I reckon, 6 months in, with an unsound horse for three months, I am at about the 2 month mark on the Rockley comparison. Another month and I reckon she won't feel footy on rough tarmac or the rough concrete at the yard. She is still slightly footy when it has rained - I think the wet grass softens her feet a bit.

HTH. Do the boot transition thing, I think it's worth it. AlexHyde on here has done the transition with a Cushings pony - it can happen, it just takes a bit longer.
 
HH I think it is very easy to slip into if you discover you need to hack with boots to just do that, so the boots never come off and the feet don't condition the same as if they had access to road etc even for short periods.
I am sure you know from my previous posts we started 5 min in hand walking. IIRC got up to 15/20 min ish at the 6 week point when he went footy and needed booting, but he still did 5 mins or so in hand on the road every day bare and I used to remove his boots for the grassy sections of our hacks. After 6 months we used the boots only occasionally and now they are just in case or used on the very long consistent stoney tracks if I know we will be doing lots and he needs to keep up with others.
 
Well, I don't know whether I am right or wrong, but mine was diagnosed with navicular about 3 months ago. The vets advice was bar shoes and pads. I did bar shoes with a horse (different issue to navicular) 8 years ago. It didn't work and 18 months later I had to have him PTS. I opted this time to have shoes taken off. Vets were not super pleased about this, but heyho.

I am having to use boots to walk him out in hand at the mo. Having said that he is sound in the field and now this morning, he trotted down from the field into the corral sound. Previously he wasn't even sound in shoes in the field.

For me, I know that I have to take it all super slowly. He now walks in over the corral, up the track, over the concrete fine, over the gravel area to his stable, bit more slowly - but thats fine, at least now he is prepared to do the walk from the concrete over the gravel area without stopping and insisting on boots - mine is bright and opinionated!!

Today, we went on a 5 mile in hand hack with boots on all fours. He was very forward, I had to really struggle to keep up,! As he isn't refusing now to walk on gravel area with no boots, I am taking that as acceptance and don't boot for that.

I think it is a question of a) how opinionated and how much he can trust you will accept what he says and b) don't rush any of it. It took a lot of time for my horse to get navicular/caudal hoof pain and it will take a lot of time to sort it. As long as you see an improvement (which for us went back when a trimmer came out and took out his bars and relieved the quarters and took his heels down), then the improvement is key - sometimes things just take the time they take.

Oh and I had mine tested for both Cushings and EMS. Both were negative. Don't think we are as up with the testing as the States, so am a bit on the fence about whether he is metabolic or not. In any event, I have fed him for many years as though he is - low sugar and starch feed and hay/haylage. Oddly a horse on our yard who was borderline Cushings, who is very clearly cushings - thick coat, sway back, fat as a barrel on very little - has had her shoes removed and is a lot sounder than mine ............ so metablolic issues don't always mean they don't cope, or perhaps they are more stoic - not sure really!!
 
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Each horse is an individual. Expectations will vary. It sounds as if yours just needed a bit more time.. depends on the baseline and the journey.

Have you got a proper qualified EP to help you? No disrespect to talented farriers but the training is not the same. EPs focus predominantly on performance and nutrition. Whilst there is a module on farriers, it's there to advise when it's necessary to shoe and what constitutes a good job. Everything else is rehabilitation of hooves returning to its natural state. Capable of all work at all levels.

Some investigation is needed for sure, but unless you know what to look for, how do you know what to look for? It does sound as if you need to be more assertive with strength building. Tarmac, barefoot is fantastic. Nothing better than smooth Tarmac for reconditioning hooves.

I'd say, re-evaluate, second opinions and more work. Trim is a tiny part of bf... diet in the middle and work makes up 90% of real soundness. It takes time. Took one of my horses 10 months but the work did it.
 
Becks01 said:
I suspect this post will attract a lively debate, but I am grabbling with continuing barefoot, or giving up and putting natural balance with pads on the fronts… We are nearly a year barefoot, and have never really got far beyond the transition stage….he’s ok in the menege but needs boots and pads for anything else. Even walking on the gravelly bits into the stable provokes a reaction.

My research has led me to think that the sensitivity is a result of inflammation, and that the shoes and pads only cover the symptoms, not address the cause. I have addressed his diet wholeheartedly in terms of sugar and supplements; and in husbandry (so far as is practical on the yard we’re at) but I’m not seeing the improvement that I would expect. His feet themselves look fantastic, so strong, wide padded frogs, good exfoliation etc… but the footiness just does not go away. He appears to be extremely susceptible to hard ground and concussion as well.
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to my mind if you haven't got very far after a year then something is going on and it also probable he is never going to make it as a barefoot horse. Suggestions of walking him in hand on tarmac or anything else won't work as he won't be capable without being footy.

I would be looking along the lines of a metabolic problem or cushings. Is he kept off grass? if not then grass could be part of your problem but of course you may not be able to keep him any other way. I would be trying to manage him to keep him sound around the yard/stable/field etc and then using pads and boots for all riding. Don't just rely on the cushings test results (they are not always accurate) but have a look at all the cushings symptoms and take those in conjunction with the test results.
The only thing you haven't mentioned is trimming. How is he trimmed? could it be a case that he is simply being trimmed too short? Have you tried not trimming for a cycle and seeing if this improves him? you mention well padded frogs. Are the heels proud of the frogs? is he landing on the heels or primarily on the frog? if the frog this could be painful for him. Hold a ruler over the back of the foot and see what he is landing on.
 
Paddy do you not think the horse just having 6 months off possibly means that the horse isn't giving a clear view of whether it would cope or not. I just wonder if the movement has been too insufficient for those months so although it is a year it isn't really?

I am curious about the trimming too, just trying to get all bases covered OP :)
 
ester said:
Paddy do you not think the horse just having 6 months off possibly means that the horse isn't giving a clear view of whether it would cope or not. I just wonder if the movement has been too insufficient for those months so although it is a year it isn't really?

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if it's had it's shoes off for a year surely it should be able to wander around the place without being footsore yet OP mentioned it was footy over gravel into it's stable. It the horse cannot cope with that I don't see how it can ever be conditioned to become better at barefoot as it will be footsore before it can even start doing more which will only make it more sore. I would expect a horse to be making progress in a lot less than 6 months. If it wasn't I would be looking for problems.
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Yes, that was my initial thought, then I was pondering a bit more, it would be interesting to know if box rest was involved for the fetlock injury or not too. I am probably a bit swayed having noticed recently how much a few weeks field rest didn't do frank's feet any good at all compared to how they normally are.
From what the OP says though it does sound like the horse is particularly sore and struggling (though it is hard to gauge footiness from written word I think sometimes/exactly which surfaces are problematic as free moving gravel being different to general stonieness or tarmac etc.) so I do think metabolic issues would be my first port of call at this point before deciding what to do.
 
Was he sound when he was shod? My own horse is in heart bars now and I would never contemplate trying to get her to go barefoot. I take my hat off to those who go thro the process, but my own horse would be too sore and I would not be prepared to allow her to feel that uncomfortable. My farrier (who has barefoot clients) is of the opinion that she should stay in heartbars.
 
monkeymad said:
Was he sound when he was shod? My own horse is in heart bars now and I would never contemplate trying to get her to go barefoot. I take my hat off to those who go thro the process, but my own horse would be too sore and I would not be prepared to allow her to feel that uncomfortable. My farrier (who has barefoot clients) is of the opinion that she should stay in heartbars.
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Are you in NE Shropshire/Staffs? That sounds unpleasantly like the farrier who, in his most patronising manner (he is known for it) said the same to me. I bought some good boots and pads, got a very good trimmer and my former laminitic with thin soles is now 100% sound on everything but the sharpest of stones. The boots and pads (soft ones to begin with) really got him over that initial stage without any real discomfort, and enabled us to keep his feet suitably trimmed on a weekly basis, unlike in shoes where you can only do it between shoeing
Said farrier claimed to do barefoot but gave himself away when he said "Every trained farrier can" indicating he didn't differentiate between a paddock trim and a properly balanced one
 
If you do the ruler test across the heels that paddy55 has suggested, the frog should be in a straight line with the heels, the horse should land on heels and frog at the same time.

I second the suggestion of Cushings testing, and a possible pergolide trial even if it is negative.


With horses with sore feet you are caught between a rock and a hard place. You need movement to cause growth. You need growth to stop the sensitivity. Keeping a sore horse moving does work, but depending on the horse/owner/livery audience it can be difficult to do.
 
Gosh - thanks everyone for your responses - lots to think about!!

I have a blood test booked for Cushing's in a couple of weeks....I've been fobbed off by the Vets before as they just don't seem to see that foot sensitivity could be a metabolic issue (in the absence of other symptoms) but I am insisting this time. I introduced Agnus Castus a while ago to see if that made a difference to anything, but to be honest where he's not in work I can't see anything.

To answer some of the questions - he's trimmed by an EP. I was getting a little frustrated with the farrier as although he was initially very supportive of the move to barefoot, he didn't seem to accept that diet could affect his feet and foot sensitivity, he kept trimming them quite short so the poor boy was very sore after a trim, and then when I pushed about that they were then not trimmed enough because the farrier didn't seem to want to come more regularly than 5 weekly cycles... EP and I are just about to trial 3 weekly trims as his fronts grow ridiculously quickly and the way he flares creates a horrible breakover which I worry will affect his tendons over time...(hence why natural balance have been suggested - to ease the breakover)

I must admit I hadn't reflected properly on the lack of work being responsible for the footiness....although I'm not sure he was much better when he was in work. Perhaps I need to slowly build him back up as if I was doing the transition all over again and see what happens... He's sore on pretty much all surfaces apart from the soft track and menege :-(
 
Good that you've finally got them to sit up and take notice. Please take him off the Agnus Castus now, before they come so nothing interferes with results. Now is a good time for a test, anyway.

You can but try with the transition again. It's bloody hard work. I get up at 5:45 to be at the yard at 6:30 for our walking in hand. She needs to be largely self-trimming so we do roadwork in hand every other day, and between that we do 10 mins roadwork onto a shale/gravel track for 7 minutes, down a stony track for 4 minutes and a farm track for 15. As I said in my previous post, it was only when I built the alternative surfaces in did I see some real improvement - and that was about 4.5 months in.

Yesterday we were out for 2 hours no boots, have galloped over every last bit of stubble in North Yorkshire, been up the gallops, followed gravel tracks, you name it. She was the one who scrambled up the rocky bit without a slip or care. And walked out sound this morning. Hurrah!

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
I'm with HeresHoping :) I'm quite a newby to the barefoot world, but I'm 3 weeks in to home rehabbing my pony with navicular syndrome/ddft tear. After three weeks we are up to walking in hand 3 miles a day (5 days out of 7) on tarmac (and walking up people's gravelly drives to get some exposure to varied surfaces), so about 50 mins a day (started off at 10 mins per day and have increased by gauging how comfortable she is). I'll get up to about an hour a day in hand and keep it at this for a while then start riding for the first 10 mins and build the amount of ridden time up too, then bring in trotting, etc, etc. She was diagnosed (X-rays/MRI) early August and the vet treatment plan was box rest and remedial shoes with a very guarded prognosis of maybe light hacking in the future, I wasn't keen on the outcome stats of this treatment plan and she is only 7 years old, so while I researched what to do, I kept her in a small paddock for a month without shoes. I've only seen an improvement since the walking out. It's early days for us but I'm feeling that the regular low impact exercise on tarmac and varied surfaces is what's really important in being successful barefoot. I also video her lots to check she is landing heel first before upping the work and she is on a forage plus supplement and we have made a track around our fields :) It's really quite hard work though, hopefully, I'll lose a few pounds wth all this walking :D . One thing that always confuses me when people say that horses can't cope without shoes for lots of work, is that so many endurance horses are barefoot and I know lots do boot up for the rides, but there are also lots that don't. Perhaps it's the hard work that means they can stay barefoot? I've just taken the shoes off my older mare, which is quite nerve-wracking, but I'll be following a similar programme with her.
 
If he's struggling barefoot then you can boot, or shoe

But shoeing, if you chose to go down that route, needs to be done eyes wide open. You still have a horse with sensitive compromised feet, but the shoes and pads will mask that and if a crash comes it will come suddenly.

Sounds like you need to work hard on the diet and maybe keep off grass.

I have one who is always more sensitive this side of summer and I have to boot in front
 
HeresHoping said:
Good that you've finally got them to sit up and take notice. Please take him off the Agnus Castus now, before they come so nothing interferes with results. Now is a good time for a test, anyway.

You can but try with the transition again. It's bloody hard work. I get up at 5:45 to be at the yard at 6:30 for our walking in hand. She needs to be largely self-trimming so we do roadwork in hand every other day, and between that we do 10 mins roadwork onto a shale/gravel track for 7 minutes, down a stony track for 4 minutes and a farm track for 15. As I said in my previous post, it was only when I built the alternative surfaces in did I see some real improvement - and that was about 4.5 months in.

Yesterday we were out for 2 hours no boots, have galloped over every last bit of stubble in North Yorkshire, been up the gallops, followed gravel tracks, you name it. She was the one who scrambled up the rocky bit without a slip or care. And walked out sound this morning. Hurrah!

Good luck with whatever you decide.
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Thanks for the tip r.e. the Agnus Castus!! He's off it!

I praise your dedication to rehabbing your horses hooves....I'd love to think that I could do it to that extent but I know I won't have the time, what with family commitments and working full time - I can but try though....
 
Hi Becks01, I have been in a similar situation recently. I had my 16.hh sports horse barefoot for a year and he had the best eventing year to date. However, very intermittent lameness started in May, and would appear every so often as the off head nod here or the odd hop in trot there, on all surfaces having previously been a horse who transitioned very easily I kept an eye on it. I ended up taking him into the hospital at the end of the season as it was just rumbling away and although not affecting his performance (he was never out of the ribbons) it niggled at me that it wasn't going away. X-rays showed very little and nothing of significance, and an MRI showed some mild inflammation of the bones in the front feet. The vets recommended shoes and pads but I was reluctant and asked if there was an alternative - yes field rest for 6 weeks. However, 6 weeks later there was no change so he had the shoes and pads, another 2 weeks field rest and I am now in the process of very slowly (and I mean VERY slowly) bringing him back into work - starting with 4 weeks of walk work increasing from 15 mins to an hour a day.

Will I go back barefoot - I really don't know. I really want to as I know it is the best thing for his feet, however, with what I am asking of him is it too much? Perhaps I need to look at shoes during the season and barefoot over winter. We will see. I have left his hinds barefoot as had no issues there.

I'm not sure if this story has helped you at all but I hope by sharing it you know you're not alone in the barefoot vs shod dilemma!

Good luck :-)
 
If what you're doing isn't working i.e barefoot in that you are able to do then I would recommend changing something and if it is as simple as putting shoes on why wouldn't you do it?
 
SusieT said:
If what you're doing isn't working i.e barefoot in that you are able to do then I would recommend changing something and if it is as simple as putting shoes on why wouldn't you do it?
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Because it isn't as simple as putting shoes on?

If there's a problem, why mask the problem instead of fixing it with diet or medication for a systemic metabolic disease?

Why try to work out what balance the horse needs if he can tell you for himself given the chance?

I think it's accepted that shoes reduce blood flow to the foot. How can that ever be a good idea?

It's certainly been proved that taking the shoes off, combined with a graduated work program, is overwhelmingly the most effective treatment for caudal hoof pain caused by collateral ligament, ddft and/or impar ligament strain. If that's the case, why would you shoe in the first place unless you really have to?

And boots are brilliant these days, so why shoe 24/7 if you only need boots 2/24?

And why put a pound of steel on the end of a long lever that will multiply its concussive effect if you don't need to?

Or, the least of the arguments, pay at least twice as much for a set of shoes as you need to for a trim, if you need to pay a trimmer at all?
 
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neverenoughtea said:
Hi Becks01, I have been in a similar situation recently. I had my 16.hh sports horse barefoot for a year and he had the best eventing year to date. However, very intermittent lameness started in May, and would appear every so often as the off head nod here or the odd hop in trot there, on all surfaces having previously been a horse who transitioned very easily I kept an eye on it. I ended up taking him into the hospital at the end of the season as it was just rumbling away and although not affecting his performance (he was never out of the ribbons) it niggled at me that it wasn't going away. X-rays showed very little and nothing of significance, and an MRI showed some mild inflammation of the bones in the front feet. The vets recommended shoes and pads but I was reluctant and asked if there was an alternative - yes field rest for 6 weeks. However, 6 weeks later there was no change so he had the shoes and pads, another 2 weeks field rest and I am now in the process of very slowly (and I mean VERY slowly) bringing him back into work - starting with 4 weeks of walk work increasing from 15 mins to an hour a day.

Will I go back barefoot - I really don't know. I really want to as I know it is the best thing for his feet, however, with what I am asking of him is it too much? Perhaps I need to look at shoes during the season and barefoot over winter. We will see. I have left his hinds barefoot as had no issues there.

I'm not sure if this story has helped you at all but I hope by sharing it you know you're not alone in the barefoot vs shod dilemma!

Good luck :-)
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Hello there - thanks for sharing your story. I hope that it works for you. I can imagine that bruising in the feet takes a while to feel better bless him. Good luck
 
Hi All - As this is thread has started again I thought I would update you and say I got a positive Cushing's Result last week.

I just had a hunch that there was metabolic stuff going on, and am a little cross that the Vet's kept fobbing me off...so he's started on Prascend last week (very slowly!) and I am hoping that I see an overall improvement in his being and way of going.

Started his rehab / bringing back into work this week too. If there is still no improvement with footiness after medication and transitioning type work then I might have to think again about the shoes/pads thing. I didn't just want to cover up the symptoms without looking for (and trying to remedy) the cause. Shoes really would be last resort though...
 
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