Contradictions

Parkranger

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Are you pro hunting but anti-fur? Do you eat fish but not mean? Do you poison rats but think that foxes should be left alone?

Just interested as I'm sure we all contradict ourselves....I eat fish but not meat. I said I'd never hunt (while I was taking a break from horses) but now, I have to say that I'm actually very interested to see what it's all about. I don't know if I can be an anti unless I've experienced a hunt........
 

severnmiles

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I'm anti cruelty!

I will wear fur - mum has a fur coat, its very old though. The fur trade is cruel so I suppose like most I'm hypocritical. I eat meat and fish, couldn't live without it. I think poisening of any form is cruel and would rather catch rats, foxes e.t.c with JRT's or hounds, much more humane.

I think out of sight out of mind is the issue here, if you witness the cruelty involved in fur/meat trades then you think about it, if you don't know about it then it doesn't play on your mind. Meat in a shop doesn't look like a dead animal.

But when you think about it does a lion show feelings towards an antelope when its about to kill it? Does a fox think about the pain it will cause a chicken when it kills it? Are we all getting too soft?
 

Parkranger

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My stance on meat has always been farming. I know it sounds absurd, but if we had to farm and hunt for our own food it would be natural. As humans we kind of take the sport out of it by farming them! Slaughter houses are not humane in my eyes - those animals know they're going for the chop.

I try and eat non farmed fish though although casting out a massive net is still not natural so yet another contradiction.

I'm always willing to be educated, hence my curiosity with hunting.....
 

Sidesaddle

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does a lion show feelings towards an antelope when its about to kill it? Does a fox think about the pain it will cause a chicken when it kills it?
No. Animals do not have the same behavioural traits as we do. They don't have emotions. They react on instinct. Supposedly that is one of the things that sets us apart from other animals.
 

flying_change

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"But when you think about it does a lion show feelings towards an antelope when its about to kill it? Does a fox think about the pain it will cause a chicken when it kills it? Are we all getting too soft? "

I imagine that all the lion and fox thinks is ..... food ! This is because they are simple animals with limited intelligence. We on the other hand are the most intelligent creature on the planet (well, maybe one of the most intelligent...) and are capable of deeper thought. We should be capable of understanding the difference between a need to kill for food and the obtaining of sport therefrom.

RS
 

severnmiles

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The 'sport' is the issue with some HHO forum members *cough* RS *cough* :) it would make it in-humane to to hunt our food.

We have two piggies at the mo (pumba and timone) they will be in the freezer by October but they've had a lovely life, they have a wallow and a little arc and get all the scraps and I scratch their backs every day so I won't feel so guilty eating them, they haven't spent their life knee deep in [****] shut in a dark barn like some.

I don't have a problem with farming, I'm the same as you, I do have a problem with slaughter houses, it may sound wierd but I'd like to know my food was killed with a bit of respect, I doubt this happens.

What are you curious about hunting?
 

severnmiles

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But we are talking about food.

If I go out and slaughter the nearest beef cow...but I take 10 mins to kill it, or start eating it alive like you see on some wildlife programmes, would you think that is humane as its 'for food'?
 

Parkranger

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Because I used to love galloping around and love jumping! I don't know if you can be anti something until you know all the facts.

How anyone can say that hunting on foot for food is inhumane is beyond me, how the hell did our ancestors eat? I'm not sure I could actually rear them myself though.

In an ideal world, I'd own an organic free range farm, not deal with the animals (as I'd get attached) and know that I was giving those animals a good life and that they were killed humanely......
 

Parkranger

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Maybe not humane, but what the loin is doing is natural - that's the key word for me.

As humans, back thousands of years, as we don't have the power to over power a cow by hand, or any other large mammal, it would generally be killed, with a spear or such like, relatively quickly.
 

Doreys_Mum

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Me?

I'm anti meat in practise not principle - thats why I want to be a farmer - so I can make meat less cruel...

I'm anti fur because it's just pointless and un-necessary - but that doesn't mean the coats of old should be destroyed...

I'm anti poison - taking a few days to kill a rat over a terrier managing it in minutes??

I'm anti the shooting of large mammals except by experts with high powered rifles

I'm not a fan of animal racing but I do believe that horseracing is worse than greyhound racing which isn't nice...

As Severnmiles says, I'm anti cruelty, not anti using animals. I want to live in a way where I eat meat that I knew from birth, can dispatch wild animals quickly and easily with hounds or terriers and where no animal I own is used and abused.

Perhaps one day I may even set aside the time, space and resources to rescue farm animals :)
 

severnmiles

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What facts don't you understand?

"In an ideal world, I'd own an organic free range farm, not deal with the animals (as I'd get attached) and know that I was giving those animals a good life and that they were killed humanely......"

Me too, except I would deal with mine...its dangerous naming them though! :-/
 

severnmiles

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I doubt a spear would kill a cow outright, sometimes a bullet doesn't. They may have used rocks too.

But thats what I'm saying, that is how we lived years ago and even a hundred years ago the housewives would kill the chicken themselves...are we getting too soft? How long before we are worrying about picking an apple from the tree..its killing it? Sounds stupid eh? Some people already think that.
 

flying_change

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"The 'sport' is the issue with some HHO forum members *cough* RS *cough* :) it would make it in-humane to to hunt our food"

No, I never said that. I have no problem with humans or any other creature hunting for food. Of course, I think that us humans are capable of hunting and killing in a humane way.

It's when you hunt for sport, not for food, that I think it becomes immoral. After all, none of the mounted field are hungry and you dont eat the dead fox afterwards, do you ?

RS
:)
 

Parkranger

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I know, but I couldnt' deal with them on a daily basis! I suppose that's why I don't eat meat at all - maybe never will be able too!
 

Ereiam_jh

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I farm cows for sport. Does this make it evil?

I get enjoyment from the whole process raising, killing and consuming livestock.

Is this badder than going down Tescos?
 

severnmiles

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"I'm anti poison - taking a few days to kill a rat over a terrier managing it in minutes??"

Seconds!! With our terriers anyway.

SoD, do you think the cruelty within the meat trade is in farming? Or the slaughter house?
 

flying_change

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"If I go out and slaughter the nearest beef cow...but I take 10 mins to kill it, or start eating it alive like you see on some wildlife programmes, would you think that is humane as its 'for food'? "

I have no problems with you wanting to kill the cow in order to eat it (or some of it). In fact, I'd like a piece too.
I hope you will use a humane form of slaughter though, that minimises the suffering of the animal. In fact, I expect you to do this, and I dont expect you to chase it for miles just for the fun of it. I dont expect wild predators to be capabl;e of a humane kill since they are less intelligent. I also dont expect a wild animal to avoid having to chase the prey, though I dont expect they are capable of intellectual enjoyment (aside of the expectation of getting a meal); however, from the point of view of the predator, a short chase is much more efficient than a long one.
 

Ereiam_jh

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But predation is one of the least cruel means of death a wild animal can expect.

Do you think starvation or death through disease or wounds is a better way to die?
 

flying_change

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How did you make that link ?

If you eat the fox afterwards I will agree that the hunt was for food. That does not necessarily make it humane, and/or not a sport (depends how many people participated and how long the chase was).
 

AlanE

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So really. judging from the comments on this thread, the problem seems to be not what we do, but the WAY we do it. By this I mean that many of us feel disquiet at the current 'industrialized' form of farming. Given the incentive (hunger) we would be happy to raise and kill our own animals in their natural environment and take whatever measures possible to ensure it was done humanely.

The whole original idea of fox-hunting stemmed from protecting our livestock; the fox needed to be controlled if we were to eat. Given that mankind as a species are hunters, and thereby developed a superior reason and intelligence, using brains instead of brute strength to kill animals larger than themselves, then hunting is built into our psyche.

Of course, old Ruggs argument that its OK to kill animals but not for sport, is in reality a none-starter. A species which owes its survival to hunting cannot adequately separate its motives. Impossible to think that stone-age man did not enjoy his hunting. Impossible to think that they didn't hunt just for the hell of it if game was plentiful.Impossible to think that they didn't sit around the fire at night and say: 'It was a damn good hunt today' etc etc. Ruggs would say that was unacceptable, but most of us recognize that he lives in a world of impossibly delicate discrimination.
 

severnmiles

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But hunting is humane whether I stick Charlie on the BBQ or not.

Ok then, would you agree with it then? I'm eating it, so what is the problem?
 

Ereiam_jh

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That difference it at it's smallest when people control animals by hunting with dogs. It is the method that most closely mirrors the natural predation that occurs in the wild.

In general natural predation is a good thing because it targets sick animals and saves them from a worse fate.

In the ansence of predation you get more disease and more suffering.

Doing nothing has moral consequences too.
 

flying_change

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"A species which owes its survival to hunting cannot adequately separate its motives."

You've used the wrong tense. You should say 'owed' when related to this society.

" Impossible to think that stone-age man did not enjoy his hunting. Impossible to think that they didn't hunt just for the hell of it if game was plentiful."

I have the feeling that they did other things when game was plentiful. Like make cave paintings; dug flint pits; built huts.

"Impossible to think that they didn't sit around the fire at night and say: 'It was a damn good hunt today' etc etc. Ruggs would say that was unacceptable"

Actually, no, I dont find that unacceptable. We cant penetrate the mind of stone age man, but we could take an example from those people who even now do hunt for survival.... I suspect that they do indeed sit round saying that the hunt was good, but I beleive this is because they now have a supply of food rather than that they enjoyed running after animals just for the sake of the run.
 

flying_change

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"So really. judging from the comments on this thread, the problem seems to be not what we do, but the WAY we do it"

I rather think you've missed the point. It's not WAY, it's WHY.
 

flying_change

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"But hunting is humane whether I stick Charlie on the BBQ or not."

Arguable, but I wont enter into that one at the moment.

"Ok then, would you agree with it then? I'm eating it, so what is the problem? "

How many people took part ?
 

flying_change

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"But hunting is humane whether I stick Charlie on the BBQ or not."

Arguable, but I wont enter into that one at the moment.

"Ok then, would you agree with it then? I'm eating it, so what is the problem? "

No problem. Of course, if the hunt was conducted in such a way as to introduce a sport element, then there would be an element of immorality.
 
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